Welding Tips and Tricks

Hello. I weld only as a hobby because my day job (UPS driver) is 60 hours per week. I have to rest on Saturdays, but Sundays, vacations and holidays are very productive. I am almost 52 years old and I will almost certainly stay at UPS until I am about 65 years old because the cost of living around in Santa Rosa, CA is extremely high.

My wife only gets 1-2 weeks vacation, but I get 8 weeks. I have been working my way through all of the classes at United Bicycle Institute in Oregon which makes for very productive vacation.

After I finish United Bicycle Institute, I will go to a welding school for 4-6 weeks a year. Hobart Institute of Welding Technology looks to be perfect for my hobbyist needs (I build electric bicycles). The 23 week Structural Welding Program seen here https://www.welding.org/wp-content/uplo ... 8.docx.pdf is of great interest to me, and I could get through it all in 5 or 6 years worth of vacations.

I listen to the Welding Tips and Tricks podcast so many hours while I do my UPS route. I have heard every episode dozens of times. The podcast almost had me ready to quit UPS and start a new career, but I have been at UPS so long that my family has become dependent on the income and benefits.

Am I making a mistake by investing a lot of time and money in the Hobart Institute? I don't mind spending my money on education, but if there is a better school I would like to know sooner rather than later. I can attend a school for 4-6 weeks a year. Attending part time for a semester is impossible with my work schedule, and any full time course over 5 weeks is also impossible.

Hey mate,

Welcome to the forum. Glad to hear you like the Pod Cast. A few members here have been on it, Steve Scott, who is Otto Nobedder here, 5th St fab I believe and also myself, Mick Seymour. (from Australia) I like your commitment to training yourself, and I hope this forum will help you.

Erik, welcome to the forums!

Are you thinking of making electric bicycles into a second career?

As a devoted podcast listener you know the advice given by Jody, Jonathan, and Roy is "make the jump, but have a plan". You mentioned that your family is accustomed to your UPS income and benefits so it sounds like you are aware of the impact such a move would have... one of Jody's messages from the videos is, take care of your family.

If you are considering a move to bike building, a structural welding course may not be the right path for you. Structural usually involves buildings and bridges, for instance, so i wonder if a TIG welding course more closely focused on bike frames might be a better choice. A TIG course would be shorter duration, too, so you could likely get functional very quickly. Maybe you could attend Jonathan's/Roy's course in Ohio!

The welding is just fun for me; there is no paid work here. UPS has the paid work covered, leaving me with some free time and money for a productive hobby. Part of the hobby is testing my prototype police and commuter ebikes as much as possible, so I ride them to work and back. I purposely do not own a car to put myself in a position to log as many testing miles as possible, but I sure do take my wife's van when it rains!

The classes at United Bicycle Institute covered brazing and TIG fabrication of 4130 Chromoly and titanium bicycle frames. The bikes have a lot of custom metal parts, including boxes for batteries, electronics and cargo. The custom parts need to be aerodynamic and lightweight. Like an automotive hot rod, there are enough fabricated parts on one vehicle to justify learning welding and metalsmithing.

I had to learn bicycle frame building because the small changes for each new prototype frame would have been financially impractical to hire a custom frame builder to make. Like many of you guys and gals, I obsess over every single little detail.

I have been a UPS driver for 25 years and I saw a few guys who converted their garage into a hot rod shop for their own hot rods. That is what I have done. Financially impractical as it is, it makes for a super fun hobby for the limited free time that I can spend turning wrenches and welding in my shop.

My poor wife has to work for most of the weeks that I get for vacation. The vacations that I spent at United Bicycle Institute were a lot of hard work, but they made a huge improvement in my mechanical ability. I took all of the mechanics classes, and I start the frame building classes next week.

I recently put together my TIG and stick setup in my shop; I get in only about 6-8 hours of actual hood time most weeks, but if there is a holiday or day off the practice time increases a lot.

It sounds like the Hobart Institute is adequate. In the course catalog, the classes for the Structural Welding program are listed in the order below:

Welding Tech/Blueprint (2 weeks)
Advanced Blueprint (2 weeks)
O/A Welding and Cutting (2 weeks)
SMAW Basic (4 weeks)
SMAW Advanced (4 weeks)
GTAW (2 weeks)
GTAW SS and Ti (1 week)
GMAW Basic (2 weeks)
GMAW Advanced (1 week)
Flux Cored Arc (2 weeks)
Weldability of Metals (1 week)

It would take me about 5 years to get the time and money to complete the classes above. I am inclined to take the classes in the order listed above, but I may very well move the TIG classes to the front of the line.

Financially, it is best that I leave UPS when I am 65-66 years old if I can continue avoiding an injury for another 14 years. I would like to work part time in a job shop if someone will have me, but that is such a long time off. Working 60 hours/week now, I sure don't have time for any paid side hustle now. It is a challenge to even get in the hobby time.

Since I am only about 30 hours into MIG, 1 hour into stick and 15 hours into TIG, I'm sure that I will post a lot of questions on the forum pertaining to learning to weld well.

I think I get it- you're interested in the Hobart courses because you're interested in learning more about many different welding processes, not necessarily bike frames, and the Hobart courses are intensive multi-week courses that fit your vacation schedule. Is that it?

I know a 60-hr week is tough but... any chance you could take classes at SRJC?

Artie F. Emm wrote:I think I get it- you're interested in the Hobart courses because you're interested in learning more about many different welding processes, not necessarily bike frames, and the Hobart courses are intensive multi-week courses that fit your vacation schedule. Is that it?

I know a 60-hr week is tough but... any chance you could take classes at SRJC?

SRJC has a wonderful Industrial Arts program, but anything M-F is completely impossible for me to attend. I am lucky that vocational schools offer full time courses that I can get in on a single vacation. Paying for my hobby keeps me pretty poor, but the best moments of my life have always been working on hot rods.

I haven't ever taken any welding classes, but I will take 4 weeks and 2 days worth starting a week from now.

I learned what I know so far from YouTube (mostly from Jody) and the podcast. When I bought my TIG and stick setup, I chose Miller (210DX with CPS, CoolMate 1.3, ArcStation) and my hood is a SpeedGlas 9100xxi with AdFlo. My lungs got a big dose of toxic smoke in the huge wildfire that we had here six months ago. I think I inhaled a whole lifetime's worth of toxic smoke in a few hours. I use a CK Worldwide 20 series torch, 3/32" lanthanated Tungsten and I practice with both a standard collet body and gas lens.

I have not lit up on aluminum yet. My practice material is 1/4" 6061 bar. I look forward to working with the aluminum once I start to get a handle on the steel. The reason that I am choosing a second vocational school is because United Bicycle Institute teaches only brazing and TIG on 4130 and TIG titanium. The school was very good for bicycle mechanics. If Hobart is half as good as UBI (the bike school), then it will be worth it. I understand, however, that hood time is the thing that closes the deal.

For over 50 years, the two top schools in the country have been considered to be Hobart and Tulsa Pipe Welders. I'm currently sifficiently conversant with Hobart's school to know if ITW has cheapened and destroyed that as they have with everything else ITW has bought, so you'll need to do some digging into that.

Your secondary occupation of bike building and the choice of sequence in courses of study you posted leave me confused and wondering both what your goal is and if you understand the material covered in those courses.

If I were building bikes, my first choice would be O/A followed by the Heliarc classes.

Not sure if you can swing it, but you'd be a lot better served by visiting the Hobart school and talking with the instructors there, perhaps auditing a few classes if Hobart will let you.

Franz© wrote:For over 50 years, the two top schools in the country have been considered to be Hobart and Tulsa Pipe Welders. I'm currently sifficiently conversant with Hobart's school to know if ITW has cheapened and destroyed that as they have with everything else ITW has bought, so you'll need to do some digging into that.

Your secondary occupation of bike building and the choice of sequence in courses of study you posted leave me confused and wondering both what your goal is and if you understand the material covered in those courses.

If I were building bikes, my first choice would be O/A followed by the Heliarc classes.

Not sure if you can swing it, but you'd be a lot better served by visiting the Hobart school and talking with the instructors there, perhaps auditing a few classes if Hobart will let you.

I had to Google ITW. Wow, they own a lot of companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Tool_Works

I will check out Tulsa Pipe Welders.

Regarding "building bikes", the bike school definitely has the frame building 100% covered for brazing and TIG on 4130 and TIG on titanium. I will take the TIG classes at (probably) Hobart for the aluminum and stainless instruction.

There is no ebike business; this is only a hobby for me. I don't want to work any more than 60 hours/week. I had to work almost 60 hours/week for 25 years to get the easy UPS route that I have. After an easy but long 60 hour work week, resting on Saturdays and riding and wrenching on my rigs on Sundays, vacations and holidays, there are no hours left for customers, tax preparation, marketing, etc.

I do publish my results on my website; maybe it gives other people ideas, but I need to steer clear of any potential liability problems. These are not street legal by any means. I reduce the power by 67% for all of my street riding. I certainly would not want to be the guy selling these to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

I used to build automotive hot rods and I foolishly hired others for most of the metal fab work. What a huge mistake to miss that chance to learn welding back then, although I did have a Harbor Freight MIG welder which was terrible (or maybe it was operator error). If you've ever built hot rods, you know that there is almost no end to the custom metal work. A custom bicycle is much the same. I have a lot of work ahead of me.

Thanks again to everybody for all of the replies. if I can figure out how to post a picture, I will post a picture of my newbie TIG welds on 3/8" steel plate.

Here is a TIG bead from today. This is after about 15 hours of TIG hood time. I use 2% lanthanated 3/32" electrodes and 1/16" and 3/32" ER70S-2 filler. I had the machine set to 150A for this 3/8" steel plate. I made sure that the material was very clean. Also pictured is my setup. I like the Miller Small Runner Cart. It has a nice holster for the foot pedal. I have two Q size tanks because it is hard for me to get to the LWS due to my work schedule.

The man who does all my aluminum, 98% with a Cobra MIG rig on a Trailblazer power unit did probably half of the custom pipe hookups that went to the Winter Olympics in Italy, so he knows what he's doing. Danny's reputation leaked into the bike world, and the aluminum recumbant subset were lining up waiting for Danny to get there. He did quite a few and some people got the idea Danny needed their business so he'd dance to their tune. Their failure to understand Tuesday and COD resulted in Danny never touching another bike.

I see the problem with your shop instantly in the bench picture. That flat gray material is for driving on, and must be covered to become a welding shop. OK, really you just need more learning time, you'll get it evened out.
Remember to ventilate the welding shop, Argon is toxic.

Re: ITW, IndoChina Thug Works, they are much bigger than you can even see on line. 10 years back they hit a big manufacturing glitch selling Hobart MIG machines, and a few weldors went digging. We found their customer service policy, and traced back many of their "American made" components they put in their US production machines. That was things hit the fan, and ITW had no problem leaving the man with a sterling reputation who ran the Hobart site dangling in the wind looking like he was misrepresenting Hobart Product. Oddly, that didn't float.
You'll probably find it hard to believe, ITW even blames UPS for damaging machines shipped via UPS.

Powered bicycles are not legal in NY State. The State DMV has gone to the extent of publishing a list of 2 wheelers that can be Registered for on road use. They won't even register the Cushmans from the 1960s, regardless of having registered them through the 70s. This annoys Cushman collectors, who have learned other States issur NonResident Registrations.

NY DMV's policy is a little strange considering the State & Federal money that has been pumped into RIT to develope electric, preferably Solar recharging bikes for commuter use.

Franz© wrote:The man who does all my aluminum, 98% with a Cobra MIG rig on a Trailblazer power unit did probably half of the custom pipe hookups that went to the Winter Olympics in Italy, so he knows what he's doing. Danny's reputation leaked into the bike world, and the aluminum recumbant subset were lining up waiting for Danny to get there. He did quite a few and some people got the idea Danny needed their business so he'd dance to their tune. Their failure to understand Tuesday and COD resulted in Danny never touching another bike.

I see the problem with your shop instantly in the bench picture. That flat gray material is for driving on, and must be covered to become a welding shop. OK, really you just need more learning time, you'll get it evened out.
Remember to ventilate the welding shop, Argon is toxic.

Re: ITW, IndoChina Thug Works, they are much bigger than you can even see on line. 10 years back they hit a big manufacturing glitch selling Hobart MIG machines, and a few weldors went digging. We found their customer service policy, and traced back many of their "American made" components they put in their US production machines. That was things hit the fan, and ITW had no problem leaving the man with a sterling reputation who ran the Hobart site dangling in the wind looking like he was misrepresenting Hobart Product. Oddly, that didn't float.
You'll probably find it hard to believe, ITW even blames UPS for damaging machines shipped via UPS.

Powered bicycles are not legal in NY State. The State DMV has gone to the extent of publishing a list of 2 wheelers that can be Registered for on road use. They won't even register the Cushmans from the 1960s, regardless of having registered them through the 70s. This annoys Cushman collectors, who have learned other States issur NonResident Registrations.

NY DMV's policy is a little strange considering the State & Federal money that has been pumped into RIT to develope electric, preferably Solar recharging bikes for commuter use.

Wow, very interesting info. What should I cover the floor with? What is the risk of standing/welding on concrete? Foot muscle fatigue? Electrocution?

I wonder if it matters what order that I take the Hobart classes in. I am just going to take the classes in the order in which they are listed in the Course Catalog.

Regarding the legality of custom vehicles, I had the same problems with my automotive hot rods. This really makes the case for driving safely in order to avoid a situation where you have the authorities scrutinizing your rig. When I ride the bike, I always use a lot of safety devices (reflective vest, flashing lights, helmet camera, gloves, goggles, etc.) so I look like a safety geek. I like to think that a policeman would think "With all that safety gear, he must know what he's doing".

Floor is supposed to be covered with jobs you ain't got to yet & parts, plenty of parts.

Franz© wrote:Floor is supposed to be covered with jobs you ain't got to yet & parts, plenty of parts.

Oh, I get it. Funny! So there is no electrocution hazard with having that Miller ArcStation on the concrete floor?

Here is the non-welding part of the shop. The backlog of work pertaining to assembly of spare parts has been given a lower priority than hood time.

I was also looking for the same sort of intensive, private (as opposed to community college) vocational school that teaches old school machinist skills, specifically how to operate a manual mill and lathe. I couldn't find any.

Of course, I found plenty of schools that teach CNC. I would be doing this strictly as a hobby with a manual mill and lathe in my shop. I would never be able to afford a CNC machine.

It would appear that the manual machining trade has been eclipsed by CNC to the point where no such vocational school exists. How does one go about learning to operate a manual lathe and mill? Am I asking this question 25 years too late?

Best I can do is suggest you go on the Historical section of PracticalMachinist.com and ask.

I don't think a school could afford to keep its doors open teaching lathe and mill operation today.
4 years ago I watched a #2 Cinci and #2 Brown & Sharp head for China to become paperclips because the only buyer smart enough to know they could make him money stood there and said "If only I could find a man who knew how to run them".

Such machines only exist in repair shops now. Nobody knows how to run them. Oddly aparently nobody knows how to read a damn book any more either.

Franz© wrote:Best I can do is suggest you go on the Historical section of PracticalMachinist.com and ask.

I don't think a school could afford to keep its doors open teaching lathe and mill operation today.
4 years ago I watched a #2 Cinci and #2 Brown & Sharp head for China to become paperclips because the only buyer smart enough to know they could make him money stood there and said "If only I could find a man who knew how to run them".

Such machines only exist in repair shops now. Nobody knows how to run them. Oddly aparently nobody knows how to read a damn book any more either.

This would explain the lack of vocational schools teaching manual machining. I can accept reality and learn CNC (for example, https://www.lincolntech.edu/careers/ski ... chnology-1 44 week program, http://www.lonestar.edu/Machine-Tool-Op ... ficate.htm or http://www.lonestar.edu/Machinist-Certificate.htm), but I would guess that I will never be able to afford any CNC equipment.

Although it is mostly CNC (as it should be), this program also teaches manual tooling and manual machining http://www.lonestar.edu/Machining-Master.htm.

A few of my friends buy small Grizzly mills and lathes and figure them out by watching YouTube. Maybe a formal education in CNC machining will help me figure out how to operate a medium sized Grizzly mill and lathe.

I have been buying a fair amount of hand machined parts between 2015 and 2018, but the machinists are in Zagreb, Croatia and China. Like you said, manual machining is still alive and well overseas.

We're now at least 5 generations into CNC if not more. In 64 I met the first CNC, paper tape controlled Milwaukeematic going in at Carter tool. It was huge, ugly and nasty, not necessarily in that order, and shook the building every time it changed tools. It had to be set up, and then rehearsed with a chunk of wood in the vise in case there was an error in the tape to preclude tool damage.

Next generation were lathes, with improved electronics and a "learn" mode. A skilled man walked the machine through the job once, the machine recorded every move, and then the machine made the part while the man watched. It still required a babysitter to compensate for tool wear and change cutters when necessary.

Today, some guy in India draws the part on a screen, another guy does the cut lines and sequences and it comes over the internet to the machine. A kid who can read stock numbers keeps the machine loaded and takes parts away. If there is a problem it gets solved in india. The machines are fun to watch, but there is damn little human input at the machine end.

In a way, UPS isn't much different. Back in the 60s, 1 van covered NW Rochester dropping packages in the morning and making pickups going back over the route in reverse. Packages were unloaded, thrown by hand, and reloaded by hand headed for central sort. Lots of human effort and little machinery. Today 15 trucks cover the territory 1 did in the 60s, packages are barcoded on pickup and travel on that barcode pretty much all the way to the delivery truck at the other end. No more driver with a clipboard, no more clerks to transfer the clipboard to bookkeeping, just a computer running the show.

Manual machining, like welding, is a learned skill set. It's not something that can be taught beyond some very basics, and most is common sense, and getting data from references. If you're good at gaining knowledge from books, get a copy of Machinist Bedside Reader and learn. It has more than enough information to get you going.
Once you get the basic idea, grab a cheap lathe and start really learning.

Franz© wrote:We're now at least 5 generations into CNC if not more. In 64 I met the first CNC, paper tape controlled Milwaukeematic going in at Carter tool. It was huge, ugly and nasty, not necessarily in that order, and shook the building every time it changed tools. It had to be set up, and then rehearsed with a chunk of wood in the vise in case there was an error in the tape to preclude tool damage.

Next generation were lathes, with improved electronics and a "learn" mode. A skilled man walked the machine through the job once, the machine recorded every move, and then the machine made the part while the man watched. It still required a babysitter to compensate for tool wear and change cutters when necessary.

Today, some guy in India draws the part on a screen, another guy does the cut lines and sequences and it comes over the internet to the machine. A kid who can read stock numbers keeps the machine loaded and takes parts away. If there is a problem it gets solved in india. The machines are fun to watch, but there is damn little human input at the machine end.

In a way, UPS isn't much different. Back in the 60s, 1 van covered NW Rochester dropping packages in the morning and making pickups going back over the route in reverse. Packages were unloaded, thrown by hand, and reloaded by hand headed for central sort. Lots of human effort and little machinery. Today 15 trucks cover the territory 1 did in the 60s, packages are barcoded on pickup and travel on that barcode pretty much all the way to the delivery truck at the other end. No more driver with a clipboard, no more clerks to transfer the clipboard to bookkeeping, just a computer running the show.

Manual machining, like welding, is a learned skill set. It's not something that can be taught beyond some very basics, and most is common sense, and getting data from references. If you're good at gaining knowledge from books, get a copy of Machinist Bedside Reader and learn. It has more than enough information to get you going.
Once you get the basic idea, grab a cheap lathe and start really learning.

You are full of information--thanks! Gosh, that book is expensive. A used, First Edition is $75 for the 206 page book. Looks like a pertinent read, however, so I will start saving. I might start with the small Grizzly mill and lathe and hope to graduate to a medium unit at a later date. I would never have room for the large mill and lathe.

I think you can find less expensive editions, although owning a 1st edition might be worth the money just for ego purposes.

Grizzly ain't what it was 20 years ago. 3 mistakes in 1 are sort of like the old living room TV/record player/radio in the big box. When 1 went out the whole thing went out.

Sooner or later you'll want to start copeing tubing for a frame, so you might as well look for a mill that can spin a 1" cutter. Same with a lathe, a 6" will carry you a long way and be a good learning tool.

Far as saving goes, strat saving for tooling. It will cost you more than the machines and the expense never ends. Space, hey, I had a Bridgeport and a lathe along with a hacksaw all running in the back 15 feet of a 40 foot trailer, you got all that empty concrete to fill up. BTW, I know UPS drivers shovel money in every payday. My old driver GoGo Gloria bought and paid for a house with a pool in 12 years in brown. Guy who replaced her drove Brown nuts, they knew he was running a rubber stamp business on the side, and they were sure he was delivering the stamps on the route. Brown tore that truck apart many times looking for rubber stamps. They followed him for days too, and they never found a stamp. They even switched his load to another truck a coouple times and couldn't find a rubber stamp. Tightest ship in the shipping business, NAW.

Cheers, Erik. Interesting thread. Since you're doing so many of the UBI classes and getting general info, you might also consider a 1-1 class with Steve Garn at brewracing. Like UBI, you'll produce your own bike at the end of the class, and since you have experience, you can select exactly the type of bike, the process of the build, and the metal you desire. In your case, an ally frame bike with Steve's mentoring on ally TIG might be all you need.
http://www.brewracingframes.com

Another great example of internet tutelage for ally TIG is 6061.com. Aaron makes some outstanding videos, his website (paid membership) has excellent training insight, and tips for achieving great results.

This will give you a start and the cost is cheap.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jN0JA ... _mylibrary

Franz© wrote:This will give you a start and the cost is cheap.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jN0JA ... _mylibrary

Nice link. The PDF version of that book is free to add to one's Google Docs. I needed something free because I unrepentantly spend all of my discretionary income on my welding habit.

I got in a good 9 hours of welding practice today. The TIG is going very well, but I have had very little success with stick. My SMAW is just a mess compared to the TIG. My cheap Harbor Freight 7018 electrodes get gummed up between passes, requiring a trip to the grinding wheel in order to expose the steel 7018 core for conductivity. I even managed to burn a hole in my new welding curtain when I set down the 7018 electrode.

My TIG practice really improved after an internet friend shipped me "a load of mild steel pickled and oiled laser cut drops". I had been using 16 gauge sheets of "welding steel" that I bought from the hardware store. That was frustrating for this beginner because I would burn through the sheet sometimes, particularly at the edges. I had been mostly laying beads on sheet metal (as opposed to welding joints).

A welder buddy (50 years experience) recently stopped by and told me to practice on actual joints. He also recommended that I not flatten (i.e. blunt) the end of my tungsten; I had been using a 30% angle on my Piranha 2 sharpener; he had me change that to a mere 10 degrees. I will upload a picture of the long, sharp tungsten tip that he recommended. It worked really well for me. He also recommended about 7/16" stickout with a #8 (gas lens) cup! I did not go to that extreme, but I did increase my stickout to about 5/16".

What really helped my practice was that I started to make a "tray" for my wife which is basically a lot of small pieces welded together. I am carefully fitting and cleaning them. After each new piece is welded in, I press the weldment at up to 5000psi in a hydraulic press to keep it flat. My motivation for making the best bead that I can is to please my wife. I am prepared to grind down and redo 100% of the beads if necessary. I will upload a picture of this "tray" in progress.

In the future, I will practice with actual (useless practice) sculptures in order to keep my work presentable (if possible) and have a reason to get great fitment and very clean surfaces.

Here is a picture of the extremely sharp tungsten and the practice weldment in progress:

cj737 wrote:Cheers, Erik. Interesting thread. Since you're doing so many of the UBI classes and getting general info, you might also consider a 1-1 class with Steve Garn at brewracing. Like UBI, you'll produce your own bike at the end of the class, and since you have experience, you can select exactly the type of bike, the process of the build, and the metal you desire. In your case, an ally frame bike with Steve's mentoring on ally TIG might be all you need.
http://www.brewracingframes.com

Another great example of internet tutelage for ally TIG is 6061.com. Aaron makes some outstanding videos, his website (paid membership) has excellent training insight, and tips for achieving great results.

Thanks for that 6061.com recommendation. I had not heard of that website; I will join. I have still never lit up on aluminum even though I have a Miller 210DX and a lot of clean 6061 1/4" thick, 1 1/2" wide bar ready to go. Your post motivated me to buy 2 pounds of 1/16" 4043 filler for my aluminum practice material.

The brewracingframes.com website is the first framebuilding school that I have ever seen that can produce an aluminum frame. I just might check it out one day!