[Erik Mannie]

I just got back from 22 days of instruction at United Bicycle Institute in Ashland, Oregon. I took a lot of videos of the Steel Brazing, TIG Steel and Intro to TIG classes and I uploaded them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjfbZ9R ... pQERaFQUte

That is a playlist which has a lot of tube notching and mitering videos mixed in. Maybe I should have made another playlist for just TIG and brazing.

I was amazed that the lay wire technique was used! At the school, they had Miller Maxstar welders. We used the following setings: 150-160A peak, 1.4-2.2 pulses per second, 20-35% on time and 10% background current, .045" ER70s-2, 1/16" diameter, 1% ceriated tungsten, 20-25 cfh pure Argon, WP-9 torch with a gas lens and #12 cup.

I was surprised how difficult it is to weld acute angles. At the school, they sometimes silver solder on the very thin seat stays at the seat post because the angle is so acute.

Even on a TIG welded bike, many parts (called braze-ons) are brazed on.

I found the brazing process easier than TIG (because of the acute angles), but gosh that flux is messy.

I was surprised that different flux compounds are used for silver and brass filler material.

I was also surprised at the tremendous effect of heat distortion from both processes.

I also learned to (1) use as little filler material (either silver or brass wire or ER70S-2) and (2) only put as much heat into the joint as necessary.

The bicycle tubing was very thin at between .035"-.049". I blew a lot of holes (and learned to fill them!)

[cj737]

Pretty cool experience. Envious of you...

[Erik Mannie]

Pretty cool experience. Envious of you...

Not so fast, there, cj737. The facilities and curriculum were spot on, but, of the 4 instructors on staff, only one of them did a good job IMO.

It was a 6 hour drive to the school. I will always remember how excited I was on the way to school and how discouraged I was coming back.

Aside from the instructors spending way to much class time lost in their phones, here is one story which characterizes my frustration:

A bike has two rear dropouts where the rear axle bolts on. I had my second frame about 75% done, when I noticed that these dropouts were not aligned. This conversation took place while the bare frame was in the vice:

Me: "So how do we fix this?"

Main Instructor: "We already went over this. Don't you remember when we had the wheel in and I showed you that it was tilting to one side?"

Me: "Yes, I remember that. You bent the wheel in order to fix it. But what do we do now about these cocked dropouts?"

Instructor: "Let me ask you. If you were in your garage with no instructor around to answer the question, how would you fix it?"

Me (after thinking about it for a bit): "I don't know. What?"

Instructor: "No, I want to know. What would you do if you were by yourself and had nobody to help you. What would you do?"

Me (after thinking more as if I were actually alone with nobody to help): "I guess I would stick a big hex key in there and bend it a little."

Instructor: "No. I'm going to let you think about it."

And then he walked off, leaving me looking at these cocked dropouts on this frame and not knowing what to do next. The co-instructor was right there watching the whole thing (I had asked her how to fix it first, but she didn't know which was why we called over the main instructor).

I looked at the co-instructor and said "Well, that wasn't helpful. I'm going to take a walk." I walked out the door, made a payment in the office, and I said to myself: "Wait a minute, I am paying $300 a day to come here. I need to get my questions answered while I'm up here because very soon I will be in my garage alone with no instructor to answer my questions."

I walked in and told the instructor that I need to get this moving (you need to keep up a fast pace in order to finish your bike frame). He explained that learning to weld was frustrating. He said that you could either put the dropout in a vice and bend it back that way or leave it cocked and use a special insert to compensate for the misalignment.

I understand that he was using the Socratic method, but I had fallen behind in the first frame building class and rushing to finish the frame on the last day causes terrible problems.

The only reason I mention all this is that I got past the discouragement by listening to the Welding Tips and Tricks Podcast. Jody, Roy and Jonathan are very encouraging. This is huge! Attitude is so important.

After getting back home, I realized that there are many other frame building schools out there. After checking out The Hobart Institute for their TIG and Weldability of Metals classes, as well as the machining classes here http://www.lonestar.edu/Machining-Master.htm, I will attend the Bohemian Frame Building School http://www.framebuildingschool.com/

[Erik Mannie]

The instructor is seen berating me at 5:02 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DavzTVaMKGw&t=16s after I inquire if he is mitering a certain student's seat stay because that student's dropouts are in the fixture.

The student, Tyler, was the only one in class using that particular style of dropouts. To me, it seemed like a reasonable question because I thought one would use the dropouts being used for the miter cut.

The point is I don't understand why the instructor just doesn't answer the question instead of arguing with the student. He doesn't seem to understand that the students are not yet experienced frame builders. He has taught the class so many times that he forgot how foreign the material is to a new student.

[LtBadd]

Erik, as time passes I hope you find that you learned more then what it seems right now, I say that from the view point that you were right to be mad. You and the other students paid to be instructed.

[cj737]

The best lessons in life leave scar tissue. His tough love teaching method should make a point to you: they’re teaching you how to do something; but it’s up to you to learn. I appreciate that you wanted an answer, but I’m the long run forcing you to solve the problem is rather important too.

I had a mentor much like that. I’d ask him a question, he would refer me to textbooks. I’d beg for the answer, and he’d reply: Do you want to learn or know? I swallowed the pill and learned and he taught me how to understand and apply what I learned. Point being, not every situation can be taught. Gotta lean on old Number 1 at some point.

You and I are in different places; I’ve got the welding skills already. But building a bike under their tutelage would be keen to me.

[LtBadd]

Both methods are valuable, a time and place for each.

[Erik Mannie]

I definitely learned all of the material that they presented. I was sick the second day, but I attended school that day anyway. It was nothing contagious; I consumed too much MCT oil which was tough on my GI.

Listening to the welding Tips and Tricks Podcast (daily!) is such a great motivator for me. Everybody here is so encouraging. I really appreciate it. That was helpful for you guys to remind me of learning to lean on #1, because I do work alone in my garage.

I have been looking for a horizontal mill, but those are not as common as vertical mills. Today I heard that a new metalworking guild opened in my city. I will definitely get over there and see what they have for a mill.

The reason that I am looking for a horizontal mill is because I buy all of my fixtures from one place (Anvil Bikes). They recommend a horizontal. This will be a huge expense for the fixtures, mill and tooling, but I really love working with metal. I am trying to get my 17 year old son into it. I offered to send him to The Hobart Institute even though we would have to borrow the money.

I work really long work weeks (6 days) so I only have time for my passion on Sundays. Looking forward to it.

[cj737]

If you are intending to purchase the horizontal mill for making frames, I'd also tell you that a quality tubing notcher, a good set of hole saws, and an angle grinder will get you everything you need. That, and some PipeMaster Tool templates.

There's a guy in SC who makes saltwater fishing towers, platforms, etc. He works in anodized and stainless tubes, and cuts everything by hand. The guy is definitely superhuman talented, but, its a skill you can learn to save you the dough on the mill.

Personally, if I need to buy a mill, I would buy a vertical. Most good vertical mills rotate in 2 axes plus the table moves. This gives you all kinds of adjustability for tube cuts, plus the ability to mill plates, jigs, and other more traditional components.

As for sending your son off to Hobart, save the $. You've learned the fundamentals already. You can teach him, you both can learn more DIY through the internet, time, and practice that will make the cost and content of Hobart unnecessary for you. Unless he intends a professional field in welding, I'm not sure it pays to go there just to learn how to be a hobby welder.

[Erik Mannie]

If you are intending to purchase the horizontal mill for making frames, I'd also tell you that a quality tubing notcher, a good set of hole saws, and an angle grinder will get you everything you need. That, and some PipeMaster Tool templates.

There's a guy in SC who makes saltwater fishing towers, platforms, etc. He works in anodized and stainless tubes, and cuts everything by hand. The guy is definitely superhuman talented, but, its a skill you can learn to save you the dough on the mill.

Personally, if I need to buy a mill, I would buy a vertical. Most good vertical mills rotate in 2 axes plus the table moves. This gives you all kinds of adjustability for tube cuts, plus the ability to mill plates, jigs, and other more traditional components.

As for sending your son off to Hobart, save the $. You've learned the fundamentals already. You can teach him, you both can learn more DIY through the internet, time, and practice that will make the cost and content of Hobart unnecessary for you. Unless he intends a professional field in welding, I'm not sure it pays to go there just to learn how to be a hobby welder.

I would be sending him there hoping that he wants to make it a career. He is not the type to get a Bachelor's Degree, and he thought that TIG was really fun when I showed him.

I was ready to buy a vertical mill (although I am still saving the $) when Anvil Bikes recommended the horizontal. I know that the work can be done on a vertical. I will check back with him asking if a vertical mill would serve.

I have two angle grinders. I will pick up a quality tube notcher and the other tools you mentioned. From what I gathered at the school, the miter on the seat stays and chain stays is best done with a fixture on a mill.

I am still very discouraged by and deflated from my experience at the school, but the Welding Tips and Tricks podcasts are bringing me back to the enthusiasm and confidence that I had just before I attended the school. Jody is so humble. I have listened to the podcasts so many times that I will start listening to his YouTube videos while I work (I am a UPS driver).

I really appreciate your input and this forum. I will pay it forward somehow by helping others who are getting started in welding and machining. I was in a very good frame of mind right before I went to the school. This community is just the thing I need to get back to that attitude. I find it surprising that an expensive school would deflate and discourage but a free forum and YouTube channel would nourish and encourage.

I need to just take the information that I learned from the school and leave the negative stuff in the past. There may have been another issue going on with the instructor. I will never know. I attended five years of college as well as other vocational schools and I have never experienced such discouragement and beratement.

If anybody is heading off to vocational school, make sure to (1) take written notes, (2) rewrite those notes every night and get that under your belt before the next day, (3) ask questions on those notes first thing the next day, and (4) Google the questions that remain after that.

I was paying $300/day and I probably came across as demanding because I knew I would be paying off that $7,000 tuition for years. I was making sure to get my money's worth by asking so many questions, but I should have reminded myself that a lot of that money was for administration and materials.

[cj737]

It’s been my experience, that sometimes you run into a “professional” or “certified” instructor who may well know more than you, but also believes they’re the most intelligent cat whoever sh!t between two shoes. Humility is a grace, and there are just as many egomaniacs in welding as there are in all other work trades.

I suspect that due to Jody’s level of humility, that he seeks others who match his personality and skills because that’s what people do; gravitate to their own types. I’m sure he’s come across thousands of people like that instructor and simply put them in a bucket of used, and abandoned. Use them for their insights and knowledge, abandon the rest.

Yeah, you paid a lot of money, but you got some great experience, had some nice time away from home, and made a bicycle to boot. Lots of positives to be gleaned from your investment.

Switching gears, I set up some tubing yesterday in my shop, notched it, then set my TIG box up with your posted settings. When I read you were between 150-160 amps on thin wall, I was certain it was a misprint. After my experimentation yesterday, I’m dead certain I’d be using lower amps as even on the thicknesses I was running (0.063 filler and 1.0x0.063), I had to pedal off the peak.

When I set up with TIG pulse, I always set my peak to full pedal amps. I use the pulse to mitigate the heat. I’d be curious for your reaction or how UBI instructed you to use those settings and a pedal. Or was it all full heat and rely on the settings?

[Erik Mannie]

It’s been my experience, that sometimes you run into a “professional” or “certified” instructor who may well know more than you, but also believes they’re the most intelligent cat whoever sh!t between two shoes. Humility is a grace, and there are just as many egomaniacs in welding as there are in all other work trades.

I suspect that due to Jody’s level of humility, that he seeks others who match his personality and skills because that’s what people do; gravitate to their own types. I’m sure he’s come across thousands of people like that instructor and simply put them in a bucket of used, and abandoned. Use them for their insights and knowledge, abandon the rest.

Yeah, you paid a lot of money, but you got some great experience, had some nice time away from home, and made a bicycle to boot. Lots of positives to be gleaned from your investment.

Switching gears, I set up some tubing yesterday in my shop, notched it, then set my TIG box up with your posted settings. When I read you were between 150-160 amps on thin wall, I was certain it was a misprint. After my experimentation yesterday, I’m dead certain I’d be using lower amps as even on the thicknesses I was running (0.063 filler and 1.0x0.063), I had to pedal off the peak.

When I set up with TIG pulse, I always set my peak to full pedal amps. I use the pulse to mitigate the heat. I’d be curious for your reaction or how UBI instructed you to use those settings and a pedal. Or was it all full heat and rely on the settings?

You are referring to these settings: Miller Maxstar 200 at approximately 160A peak, 1.8 PPS, 30% on time and 10% background current. 1/16" diameter, 1% ceriated tungsten electrode ground to approximately 30 degrees with the tip not blunted. Argon flow is approximately 25 cfh. Weldcraft WP-9 air cooled torch with a gas lens and #12 cup. Filler material is .045" ER70s-2.

I was also surprised at the high max amperage, but we never used full power. After each bead, I would look the max current used, and it was never more than 35-40A.

I asked "Why not just set it to a much lower max amperage?", and two different instructors said that they like to have the extra juice on tap if it were ever needed. All of the tubing was between 0.7-1.1mm (.028-.043").

The instructor (who was indeed not lacking in confidence and deservedly so) had worked for years building titanium and 4130 bike frames. He said that he is a hot welder, so his PPS is on the high side of average for a bike frame welder.

The school gave us these ranges:

ER70S-2 (always used for 4130 chromoly): .035", .045" or 1/16" (.0625"). Consider .045" first, but it is never a problem to use the .035" or 1/16". 1% ceriated, lanthanated or thoriated.

Electrode diameter: always 1/16"

Pulse rate: 1.4-2.2 PPS. 1.8 PPS is the standard. A hot welder chooses a higher PPS; 2.2 PPS is crazy high for a bike frame builder. I am a slow worker so I settled on 1.4 PPS.

% on time: 20-35%. 30% is the standard (or starting point for one who will be experimenting). 35% is crazy high and 20% is crazy low for a bike frame builder. A lot of guys and gals choose 25%.

Background current: Always 10%.

Max amperage: 150-160A, always DCEN.

Cup size: the school only had #12 cups. Both of the instructors have always used #12 cups with a gas lens.

Argon flow: 100% Argon at 15% for practice joints and 25% for production work.

[Erik Mannie]

I have one more thing to say about the discouragement factor, and then I won't mention it again.

I have to think that it is guaranteed that a budding welder or mechanic will experience being shot down a few times while getting started. An analogy is trying to learn to ride a bike and crashing. I suppose some people would just quit at that point, but most people realize that crashing is a normal part of the learning process. You can bet that this forum, the podcast and Jody's videos are 99% of the reason that I am not quitting, and this is because Jody's digital creations are encouraging and humble. Those traits are what help me learn best. I really hope that everybody is listening to the podcasts as there are indispensable nuggets in there.

I find it unacceptable that a vocational instructor would berate students. He would systematically berate the one or two slowest learning students in the class and overtly favor the top performer(s). God help anybody who doesn't pick up something he said the first time. Asking him to repeat something would always be answered with, "I just went over that" or "I already went over that". Thus my evangelizing about taking written notes.

I was a middle school teacher for 2 years. I realized that I was burned out at the end of the second year, and I immediately put in my 2-week notice to take a job outside the teaching field.

The main things that I learned from my "crash" are what I wrote above about taking, rewriting and studying written notes as well as practice, practice, practice.

[cj737]

Yep, unlucky for you, you met that one "prick" of an instructor. but good on you for not letting you dampen your passion!

Like I said, "Use and abandon".
Post up some pictures of your frame! Dying to see what you made????

[Poland308]

I have one more thing to say about the discouragement factor, and then I won't mention it again.

I have to think that it is guaranteed that a budding welder or mechanic will experience being shot down a few times while getting started. An analogy is trying to learn to ride a bike and crashing. I suppose some people would just quit at that point, but most people realize that crashing is a normal part of the learning process. You can bet that this forum, the podcast and Jody's videos are 99% of the reason that I am not quitting, and this is because Jody's digital creations are encouraging and humble. Those traits are what help me learn best. I really hope that everybody is listening to the podcasts as there are indispensable nuggets in there.

I find it unacceptable that a vocational instructor would berate students. He would systematically berate the one or two slowest learning students in the class and overtly favor the top performer(s). God help anybody who doesn't pick up something he said the first time. Asking him to repeat something would always be answered with, "I just went over that" or "I already went over that". Thus my evangelizing about taking written notes.

I was a middle school teacher for 2 years. I realized that I was burned out at the end of the second year, and I immediately put in my 2-week notice to take a job outside the teaching field.

The main things that I learned from my "crash" are what I wrote above about taking, rewriting and studying written notes as well as practice, practice, practice.

Unfortunately there are many in a position to teach and pass on knowledge that feel they need to tear down people to help them learn. It unnecessary! If we want to further our trade( metal work) then we need to pass on knowledge and help the next generation get past there mistakes, and then build them up, to build our trade up, to keep or further its excellence!

[Erik Mannie]

Thanks for your support and interest. Here is a brazed 4130 chromoly hardtail set up for disc brakes that can fit both a 31.5" X 5.05" tire and a 70 tooth chainring. This frame will serve as a bench test rig for the electronic systems (motor, controller, display, battery, throttle, multifunction switch and harnesses) for https://police-ebikes.com/. As such, it has eight mounts for multiconductor cables running down the top tube. It is at the powder coater now.

The front triangle is as large as one can make it; I have a 32" inseam and I can barely stand over it. The area inside the front triangle is valuable real estate for people who like to put large items in water bottle cages.

fat side.jpg (56.12 KiB) Viewed 15914 times

[Erik Mannie]

Here is a TIG welded 4130 chromoly thru axle, single speed city bike with a 32 tooth chainring and disc brakes. I am building this up for my son to ride to high school. I am still prepping this for the powder coater. I pictured some tools in the background because I figured you guys and gals love tools as much as I do.

commuter table wood.JPG (109.22 KiB) Viewed 15914 times

commuter bench.JPG (58.35 KiB) Viewed 15914 times

commuter table.JPG (72.84 KiB) Viewed 15914 times

[Erik Mannie]

Here are pictures of me brazing and welding at the school.

braze.png (482.29 KiB) Viewed 15914 times

TIG.jpg (57.23 KiB) Viewed 15914 times

[cj737]

Nice.

I was going to mention to you, in your posted Videos, you were TIG welding in short sleeves. DON’T. The UV light from the arc will cause skin cancer. Even low amp, shielded welds still generate very harmful side effects. At a minimum, a darker long sleeved T shirt is minimum safety.

[cj737]

What machine do you use at home?

"The school gave us these ranges:

ER70S-2 (always used for 4130 chromoly): .035", .045" or 1/16" (.0625"). Consider .045" first, but it is never a problem to use the .035" or 1/16". 1% ceriated, lanthanated or thoriated."

I've done a bit of research and some inquiring with a friend who welds Spec Race frames out of 4130. He has switched to ER80- from ER70-S2. It is his opinion, that the 80 is both stronger and more ductile. These characteristics may not matter with road bikes, but his extreme strength application, he feels it is a much better choice.

I have seen "some" bike frame guys slowly switching over too. I wonder if UBI's recommendation is based upon market availability, cost, and legacy approach as opposed to more modern findings. I'd equate it to the 4043/4943 argument for aluminum filler

[Erik Mannie]

I have a Dynasty 210DX with CPS and a Coolmate 1.3. I love those machines.

Thanks for telling me about the UV danger. The gentleman TIG welding in the videos is the instructor. I wear a welding jacket.