[TraditionalToolworks]

I contacted HTP to inquire about the actual voltage used on the 221 single and dual voltage models.

HTP advertises they use 26 amps for the 221 DV and 36 amps for the 221 (single voltage).

Oscar had replied that on the actual tag on the machine it stated it uses 32amps for the 221 DV.

Jeff Noland was kind enough to reply and send me the stickers from both machines, which I'm posting here. However, if the 32 amps is correct for I-EFF on the 221 DV, as Oscar had stated, that means the 221 requires a 44.5 amp line at 230 volts.

That doesn't seem right for these machines as they produce 220 amps of output and people are running them on 30 amps circuits.

Simclardy (or anyone else), do you know how to make sense out of these? Does this make sense?

Single voltage 221 sticker:

HTP 221 single voltage sticker

htp-221-single-voltage-sticker.jpg (82.29 KiB) Viewed 4357 times

Dual voltage 221 sticker:

HTP 221 dual voltage sticker

htp-221-dual-voltage-sticker.jpg (88.3 KiB) Viewed 4357 times

Alan

[Poland308]

You will only hit max amps when running max output. Lots of breakers work off of a thermal trip device. Meaning that you can pull more amps through them (for a time) than what there rated to trip at. It takes a little time for the power draw to create enough heat to trip it. Most people also aren’t running there machine at max output all the time. I’ve consistently run welders that requires a 50 amp breaker on a 20 or 30 amp breaker. If your not running your machine at a high enough output to trip the breaker then your fine. The breaker is only in the system to protect the wires between the breaker and the plug.

[Oscar]

If you look at the pic I posted, you should have noticed I made a mistake, lol. I said I-eff when I should gave said I -max. I have a feeling that the only time you will see that much current is when striking the initial arc on stick mode @ 200A. I'll see if I can make a quick video.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Josh,

I understand that but was trying to understand where the window would be for my home shop. My current shop in my house only has a 30 amp 230v single phase circuit. I use that to power single phase machines, or an RPC that powers most of my machines which are 3 phase for the most part.

I'm in the process of getting power dropped for a new shop/home I'm building, but it's a long going project and I will still keep my current house, so the 30 amp circuit will still be a limitation for any welding needs at the house I'm at as I will still be here.

My original thinking was that if I was to get the single voltage HTP, it would be small enough to carry around and I could keep my Everlast green weenie to run off 115v. Just not clear how the HTP would run on the 30 amp circuit, although Jeff Noland said it would run fine.

My other option would be to get the Primeweld 225, there are folks running it off 30 amp circuits without issues.

EDIT: and yet another option is to keep my Everlast green weenie, not do aluminum, but I know it works fine on my current 30 amp circuit.

There is no question the HTP is the better machine, at a price. Not being flush with cash (just spent $6k to prep for the new electrical service), I will need to decide if the HTP is in my future or not. My new shop will have plenty of power, it's getting a 320 amp service which will run 2 x 200 amp panels, one to the shop, one to the house. It's my current home in San Jose that is the limitation, it only has 125 amps for the entire home and 30 amps for the 230v circuit in my garage.

Alan

[Oscar]

32A it is. Peak hit 34A, but subtract the 2A from the machine idle current, and the Invertig was also on idling.

I suck at videos, did my best for a split screen to match up the timing. You might want to slow it down to ½ speed, it's right in the middle for a second or two. Oh and I don't know why, with my TIG button it only goes up to 217 amps. Oh well, never bothered me. 3amps isn't going to make or break the weld.

qolQypLeIMw

[TraditionalToolworks]

32A it is. Peak hit 34A, but subtract the 2A from the machine idle current, and the Invertig was also on idling.

Right before it hit 34 it looked like it was on 33.x for a second or two...I don't expect it would blow a breaker bouncing on it briefly like that, it jumps all over from 8 to 12 to 24...was that 217 amps with the pedal to the floor?

Jeff Noland left me a vmail today, I'll try to call him back tomorrow. I thought it was a recruiter, so I sent it to my vmail.

Alan

[Oscar]

32A it is. Peak hit 34A, but subtract the 2A from the machine idle current, and the Invertig was also on idling.

Right before it hit 34 it looked like it was on 33.x for a second or two...I don't expect it would blow a breaker bouncing on it briefly like that, it jumps all over from 8 to 12 to 24...was that 217 amps with the pedal to the floor?

Jeff Noland left me a vmail today, I'll try to call him back tomorrow. I thought it was a recruiter, so I sent it to my vmail.

Alan

I wasn't using the foot-pedal, I was using my TIG Button, and I've not used it in a while, so that's why it ramped up and didn't go straight to 217. I had forgotten just how much I needed to press to get full welding amperage. As for the amperage going from 33.x to 34, I think that was when I turned away from the arc to look at the machine, I probably long arc'd it a bit, so that consumed more power, which at the outlet is shows as a current spike. You'll be fine on a 30A breaker unless you really crank out the weld power for a long time.

[Simclardy]

The imax is like surge current. I eff is your max running current.
I was too lazy to get my 2020 code book but based off 2011 article 630.11(A) you base the ampacity of the conductors off of I eff.

Article 630.12(A) you use the I max to determine the breaker size. "Not more than 200% of I max"



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[TraditionalToolworks]

Article 630.12(A) you use the I max to determine the breaker size. "Not more than 200% of I max"

So in the case of the single voltage 221 it has I max at 44.5, so if I understand you correctly it really should be on a 50 amp breaker, is that correct?

In the case of the 221 DV, since it lists the I max as 32 amps, it should run on a 40 amp breaker, right?

If this is the case in theory many people are running welders off smaller breakers than they should, but since the amount of time that the welder is at peak is so minimal I guess it doesn't create a problem.

What's interesting is that HTP has the numbers they advertise and post on their website which don't align with what you've said, in regard to the I max.

What's more interesting to me is that my Everlast green weenie has the I max at 27.5A for 240v, so a 30 amp circuit is actually well suited for it. That is actually in line to what they post the I max for on the machine.

Alan

[Oscar]

My original thinking was that if I was to get the single voltage HTP, it would be small enough to carry around and I could keep my Everlast green weenie to run off 115v. Just not clear how the HTP would run on the 30 amp circuit, although Jeff Noland said it would run fine.

Once you get a taste of it, it's tough to go back to anything else. It's like cocaine (so I've heard, lol). Besides, if you can score a used 221, which do come along every now and then, you can run it off a LiteFuze LT-5000 voltage converter if you never need to run it off a 120V/20A outlet. You can't run E6010s on 120V since the stick welding voltage is lower (OCV goes from 67V down to about 44V), but all other rods you can run. Up to about 110A if you can keep a tight arc length.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Once you get a taste of it, it's tough to go back to anything else. It's like cocaine (so I've heard, lol). Besides, if you can score a used 221, which do come along every now and then, you can run it off a LiteFuze LT-5000 voltage converter if you never need to run it off a 120V/20A outlet.

I've actually never used my green weenie on 115 volts to date, not even to try. I was thinking of using it as I have a small sawmill down at a yard I rent and it has 240v, but only a 20 amp circuit which I run a compressor on. I have 115v mostly in the shed.

I'll be moving most of the stuff that is down at the yard as I get my home project moving along.

I'm not sure how long it will take to get everything in place, but I just got the electrical pole set into place yesterday with the mounting board. I have a contractor doing this work for me, but I plan to do most of the work after I can get things situated. The contractor is the masonry contractor that did the foundation for me. In fact, that is the basement and where the initial shop is going. 10 foot walls in the walkout basement. He's going to add the floor joists for me, subfloor on top of that and a dimensional stairway from the main floor down to the basement. That will then get tarped until I can get my log shell up there. He's also going to frame the rear wall, so it will essentially be a closed box with electrical. My plan is to get the shop setup so that I can build the home. sorry for the tilted pics, they were taken by my masonry contractor. I think he was driving his excavator.

I'm getting a 320 amp circuit, and will run 2 line, each having a 200 amp panel on them. 320amp is what they use for 400 non-continuous. One panel for the shop, one for the home. I'm guessing I'll be spending much of my weekend up at the lake. You can kind of see the lake to the left of the foundation. The pole is about 150 feet from the foundation. Trench, pvc and wiring has been inspected, so it's all covered...but the wiring is in there.

[Simclardy]

Article 630.12(A) you use the I max to determine the breaker size. "Not more than 200% of I max"

So in the case of the single voltage 221 it has I max at 44.5, so if I understand you correctly it really should be on a 50 amp breaker, is that correct?

In the case of the 221 DV, since it lists the I max as 32 amps, it should run on a 40 amp breaker, right?

If this is the case in theory many people are running welders off smaller breakers than they should, but since the amount of time that the welder is at peak is so minimal I guess it doesn't create a problem.

What's interesting is that HTP has the numbers they advertise and post on their website which don't align with what you've said, in regard to the I max.

What's more interesting to me is that my Everlast green weenie has the I max at 27.5A for 240v, so a 30 amp circuit is actually well suited for it. That is actually in line to what they post the I max for on the machine.

Alan

You are allowed 200% of the i max, so if i max is 44.5amps you could put it on an 80amp breaker. Keep in mind the manufacturer might say they want pink breakers at 40amps and that is what you put. I think article 680 needs to be updated because inverter welders are different than your old school transformer based arc welder. But 680 does not distinguish arc welders. (I did not check my 2020 code on this- i will)

They don't want the breaker to trip needlessly. The conductors are sized for the effective current. Typically you think of the breaker as protecting the wire, but in this case its a bit different. It's going to trip if you have a ground fault but not if you have a slight overload. Its important to size the wire properly because that is your main protection.


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[Simclardy]

2020 has no change to this section

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[TraditionalToolworks]

I just got off the phone with Jeff Noland, and he had an interesting way at looking at the numbers, although he couldn't explain the difference in what is on the label and what they advertise on their site.

Single Voltage
220 machine amps / 44.5 max amp draw = 4.9438 machine amps per amps of electrical current
4.9438 * 30 amps circuit = 148.31 amps

Dual Voltage
220 machine amps / 32 max amp draw = 6.875
6.875 * 30 amp circuit = 206.25 amps

In this case the DV get a much better rating, but the actual number they post is quiet a bit better also.

This is so confusing, I don't think I can believe these numbers, although my Everlast green weenie is rated at 27.5 amps max on the label and they quote it as needing 27 amps. I'd say that makes the HTP labels to make their machines look bad. Although we know they don't draw that, that *IS* what HTP posts on their machines.

Simclardy, does this seem the correct calculation I just posted above?

Everlast green weenie label

i-tig-201-label.jpg (48.58 KiB) Viewed 4223 times

[Simclardy]

I'd be lying if I said I understood all that. Lol
The conversion you have is arbitrary. You could have a 30amp line at 220v deliver 550amps @ 12 volts.

I max is not used to calculate circuit ampacity. Just breaker size.
Use the I eff (effective current).



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[Poland308]

I think your converting input and output numbers. That’s apples and oranges.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I'd be lying if I said I understood all that. Lol

Hey wait a second, it makes about as much sense as all those code conflictions! j/lk

The conversion you have is arbitrary. You could have a 30amp line at 220v deliver 550amps @ 12 volts.

I think your converting input and output numbers. That’s apples and oranges.

Guys, I wasn't the one that started that, it was Jeff Noland. I do believe his machines will run on a 30 amp circuit, just that it could pop the breaker occasionally.

I max is not used to calculate circuit ampacity. Just breaker size.
Use the I eff (effective current).

So you're saying is the label states you need a 44.5 breaker, or 50 amps in the real world

The I eff looks like 22 amps for 230 v (bottom corner of that single voltage label), is the correct?

Thanks for helping the clear that up.

[Simclardy]

I'd be lying if I said I understood all that. Lol

Hey wait a second, it makes about as much sense as all those code conflictions! [emoji38] j/lk

The conversion you have is arbitrary. You could have a 30amp line at 220v deliver 550amps @ 12 volts.

I think your converting input and output numbers. That’s apples and oranges.

Guys, I wasn't the one that started that, it was Jeff Noland. I do believe his machines will run on a 30 amp circuit, just that it could pop the breaker occasionally.

I max is not used to calculate circuit ampacity. Just breaker size.
Use the I eff (effective current).

So you're saying is the label states you need a 44.5 breaker, or 50 amps in the real world

The I eff looks like 22 amps for 230 v (bottom corner of that single voltage label), is the correct?

Thanks for helping the clear that up.

So i don't have the manufacturer's installation manual. You must respect their design. But assume they have no input.
The national electrical code says you can run 10awg because it is rated for the 22a
I eff, and then put a 100amp breaker!

Don't do that, but Let me explain. You take Imax 44.5 and 200% gets to 89amps. They don't make an 89amp breaker so you can go to the next size up. Tadah! 100amps with 10awg.

Breakers are known as inverse time delay breakers. The bigger the amps the smaller the time it takes to trip. A 30amp square d qo breaker takes about 10 seconds to trip at 60amps! (See trip curve)

So go ahead and put it on a 30 or 40 and call it a wrap.
Cheers




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[Oscar]

This is so confusing, I don't think I can believe these numbers, although my Everlast green weenie is rated at 27.5 amps max on the label and they quote it as needing 27 amps. I'd say that makes the HTP labels to make their machines look bad. Although we know they don't draw that, that *IS* what HTP posts on their machines.

Here is further clarification and conjecture.

If you look at the manual,

It clarifies that the single-voltage 221 will draw 36A out of the outlet in TIG mode, operating at 220A welding output. On Stick mode (that needs extra voltage), then it needs 44A from the outlet. I suspect that is why the 221 non-DV lists 44A as Imax, it lists the higher of the two.

Now for the 221 DV. I noticed that the manual does list 32A for stick welding @ 200A welding output (which coincidentally matches my current measurement in TIG mode. It does say "26A from the wall" for TIG @ 220A welding output, but I would be willing to bet that is simply a typo. I would be willing to bet that in Stick mode @ 200A, the machine would pull around 36A from the outlet. And we already know what it pulls in TIG @ ~220A as per my video. Unfortunately, I do not have any electrodes that would allow welding @ 200A on stick mode without obliterating the electrode, but if someone wants to send me some, I would be more than happy to test it.

Also, I noticed that the 221 DV lists the 115V Imax as 42,6. Coincidence? I bet someone just wrote the manual incorrectly due to a typo. They accidentally mistakenly saw 26, and assumed that was for TIG, and the 32A was for stick. Strictly conjecture of course.

It's funny because I talked to Jeff today as well, lol. This was around 4:30pm CST. But we were discussing other items.

[TraditionalToolworks]

So go ahead and put it on a 30 or 40 and call it a wrap.

I seriously doubt I would blow the breaker, as I would only rarely weld at pull amps. I mainly wanted to understand it because, well, I'm ANAL, but as I like to say, IANAL...

It clarifies that the single-voltage 221 will draw 36A out of the outlet in TIG mode, operating at 220A welding output. On Stick mode (that needs extra voltage), then it needs 44A from the outlet. I suspect that is why the 221 non-DV lists 44A as Imax, it lists the higher of the two.

This is almost as confusing as the codes that Simclardy was sighting earlier.

BTW, Jeff kept stating that stick uses the most amperage, but they should make the label and spec clearer, IMO. Maybe it was translated from Italian.

It's funny because I talked to Jeff today as well, lol. This was around 4:30pm CST. But we were discussing other items.

Did he tell you he talked to me? I mentioned that you posted the info on the 221 originally, but Jeff sent me the labels a couple days ago. He a nice guy, and unlike the folks at Everlast went out of his way to call me back. I don't question the product or service and I would say that goes a long way to instilling trust in a company. I can see why you have a number of their products. I think I may keep my green weenie for the meantime until I can get a 221. Honestly I think the single voltage would probably due, but I may just pop for the DV. Time will tell.

[Oscar]

Nah, he didn't mention it, we were talking schematics of other stuff and what not. Definitely a nice guy, but he works too much!

[TraditionalToolworks]

With as little traffic as this site see, I doubt it's a huge toll on forum resources, lol.

Probably true, but that doesn't do the person any justice that created that thread over there, where this thread although titled for the HTP was created to discuss electrical specific. It's also discourteous to anyone using the search function in the future to pull up such threads that stray off topic...but I agree there is not a lot of traffic here, but there's enough to make it interesting, IMO.

You might want to look again. Even though your picture of the electrical spec isn't too clear, there is definitely something "off", compared to the website. It's of no relevance/importance to me, but to you as the owner I thought you might want to know if you hadn't already noticed it.

Ok, I did look closer and see there is some duty cycle info that differs on the site vs. the label. I would say that's even close to the HTP site which claims a difference of 8.5 amps on the label which is higher than the site.

Funny thing is that on the green weenie, the site implies that 35% duty cycle for 18v at 200 amps, and on the label it states a better number at 60% duty cycle for those numbers. I have to admit that the label is not easy for people to get, so find it interesting that it would go against the numbers on the machine, posted on the site.

The I-max is pretty consistent with their inrush amperage and the site claiming 27.5 amps. The HTP site has a much larger discrepancy in favor of their web site for amps, both on the DV and SV, less on the DV, but a discrepancy none the less.

I don't know that any of this really makes one iota of difference, HTP makes an XLNT machine and I've used one that a friend owns, but unfortunately he moved to Austin for his work. I'm sure I would love one if/when I own one. I'm really not unhappy with my green weenie, it just won't weld aluminum. I have replaced pretty much everything except for 1 last item, and that's the green weenie itself. And for some of the work I need to do, steel is better suited. OTOH, aluminum is better for some projects I would like to do...I guess life is all about choice...

[Poland308]

It’s not uncommon to have different labels and specks for machines with the same model number. Especially if there machines made in small batches, probably at different factories.