I thought that I'd found a good stepping stone of a job (welder/fabricator). I wanted to hold it for a couple of years. It was as professional of mom and pop shop as I'm ever gonna see in my area (upstate SC). I got let go today after only two weeks. I asked the owner's son (who runs the shop) to be blunt about the issue because "not working out" is a first for me. He said they need workers. I went back to the Temp agency for feedback as well. They said it sounded like, I wasn't subservient enough. We all agreed that it wasn't a good fit. Although starting off a monday unemployed is a bit shitty.
I've run into this kind of shit alot, where small business owners are kings, supervisors are an aristocracy, workers are like ants, and all are submissive to a fault. The owner is usually not hands on. In which case, the supervisors and coworkers end up feeling insecure and put off by my demeanor. I'm usually left to my own direction and stay busy. This particular owner was more easily respectable in being hands on and "self made", but as general rule I don't permit attempts to boss me around like a child, especially when you have know clue or concern for why I'm doing things a certain way. I don't get loud and for most part respectful. I just don't take shit from anyone.
I've always been this way my whole life with the exception of middle school. I misplaced my balls for some reason. I thought that I'd out grown it. But I can't seem to remove this tremendous sense equality among men. I'm 32. I have genuine friendships with people from 17-50.
I guess at the end of all this, I'm a little worried that this attitude will continue to hinder my career. I've been told by many that I should just go into business for myself or go into management because I have a B.A.
I don't know what I'm asking for here. Direction, words of wisdom, swift kick in the ass, etc. I'll post later, when I've processed things more.
I'll share my experience from both sides of the fence (employee turned owner). Briefly about myself, I am a Computer Programmer, and have been since '78. I started my own company in 2000.
With that said, the last 10 +/- years of being an employee, I always felt like I knew more than management, and that I could run things hundreds of times better than any of them. Basically I felt exactly like you do, they couldn't possibly understand why I do things a certain way, and I didn't want to take crap from anyone that knew less than I did about what I do.
Now fast forward to 2000, I started my own company selling a product that I wrote in my off hours, and as time went on, and my company increased in size and employees (some feeling as I did and you do), I would get more and more frustrated when those working for me weren't doing what I asked, but were doing what they thought I wanted.
One day I walked past one of my employees and overheard them talking about how they could do things so much better than me, and that if they were running this company things would be so much easier... They were saying exactly the same things I had said so many times before when I was an employee. This employee also happened to be the one I had the most problems with when it come to doing what I needed done. I didn't get mad or anything, and definitely wouldn't and didn't fire him, he was very good in his skillset.
Over the next couple of weeks it bothered me more and more, and I did start wondering if he might be right, could he actually do a better job than I could? Finally just like so many other times he did what he thought needed to be done, instead of what I asked for. In this case I had told him to work on a particular project over another. He felt the other project was more important so he did the other one.
Now this is what triggered the light bulb, he was in fact right that the other project was more important. BUT what he wasn't aware of is the fact that what I had told him to work on was needed in a much much bigger project, and his not completing it brought that project to a halt causing it to miss it's deadline.
What I realized right then and right there was that I might know 10 times more about my job, and how to do it. And I may in fact know far more than management about my job. BUT management may know more about the bigger picture, and they might just happen to know more than anyone else about how to do their job, and probably feel the same about their management too. But one thing they know is where my work fits into the bigger picture.
So to put things in perspective in your case. Your probably not going to like this, but there is probably a reason your waking up on a Monday with no job. You don't need to be subservient to follow directions from management. You don't have to "take shit" to follow directions. And you may in fact know far more than management about how to do your job.
Now what you don't know is that there is a far bigger picture than you can see, and you and your job are only a small portion of that picture. And before you say it, NO they shouldn't have to fill you in on the big picture, that bigger picture is a part of doing their job.
My advice is that if they are asking you to do something a certain way, and if that way will yield acceptable results then do it. Acceptable results is also not defined by "I know a better way," it's will their way work without causing major issues. NOW, if there is an obvious problem with what they are asking then you should try to explain that to them. And if you know a better/faster way to do something there is no harm in asking to do it your way, but you have to be prepared to be told to do it their way and to do it that way.
Not all jobs will allow you to work on your own and "keep busy." There are a lot of jobs where it's necessary for a management structure to dish out the work load, and that's not "bossing you around like a child." The fact that you say "I've run into this kind of shit a lot" might just be a reflection on you, and their might someone out there saying that "he always brings this type of shit to the workplace"
With that said, the last 10 +/- years of being an employee, I always felt like I knew more than management, and that I could run things hundreds of times better than any of them. Basically I felt exactly like you do, they couldn't possibly understand why I do things a certain way, and I didn't want to take crap from anyone that knew less than I did about what I do.
Now fast forward to 2000, I started my own company selling a product that I wrote in my off hours, and as time went on, and my company increased in size and employees (some feeling as I did and you do), I would get more and more frustrated when those working for me weren't doing what I asked, but were doing what they thought I wanted.
One day I walked past one of my employees and overheard them talking about how they could do things so much better than me, and that if they were running this company things would be so much easier... They were saying exactly the same things I had said so many times before when I was an employee. This employee also happened to be the one I had the most problems with when it come to doing what I needed done. I didn't get mad or anything, and definitely wouldn't and didn't fire him, he was very good in his skillset.
Over the next couple of weeks it bothered me more and more, and I did start wondering if he might be right, could he actually do a better job than I could? Finally just like so many other times he did what he thought needed to be done, instead of what I asked for. In this case I had told him to work on a particular project over another. He felt the other project was more important so he did the other one.
Now this is what triggered the light bulb, he was in fact right that the other project was more important. BUT what he wasn't aware of is the fact that what I had told him to work on was needed in a much much bigger project, and his not completing it brought that project to a halt causing it to miss it's deadline.
What I realized right then and right there was that I might know 10 times more about my job, and how to do it. And I may in fact know far more than management about my job. BUT management may know more about the bigger picture, and they might just happen to know more than anyone else about how to do their job, and probably feel the same about their management too. But one thing they know is where my work fits into the bigger picture.
So to put things in perspective in your case. Your probably not going to like this, but there is probably a reason your waking up on a Monday with no job. You don't need to be subservient to follow directions from management. You don't have to "take shit" to follow directions. And you may in fact know far more than management about how to do your job.
Now what you don't know is that there is a far bigger picture than you can see, and you and your job are only a small portion of that picture. And before you say it, NO they shouldn't have to fill you in on the big picture, that bigger picture is a part of doing their job.
My advice is that if they are asking you to do something a certain way, and if that way will yield acceptable results then do it. Acceptable results is also not defined by "I know a better way," it's will their way work without causing major issues. NOW, if there is an obvious problem with what they are asking then you should try to explain that to them. And if you know a better/faster way to do something there is no harm in asking to do it your way, but you have to be prepared to be told to do it their way and to do it that way.
Not all jobs will allow you to work on your own and "keep busy." There are a lot of jobs where it's necessary for a management structure to dish out the work load, and that's not "bossing you around like a child." The fact that you say "I've run into this kind of shit a lot" might just be a reflection on you, and their might someone out there saying that "he always brings this type of shit to the workplace"
First off, there's no telling what they have been through with previous hires. I work in the same type of scenario you describe. Have had to deal with a lot of misplaced ego, condescension and, "this is how we did it out West." One guy had learned how to weld in the military so he figured he was boss walking in, even though I was still helping him through welds and general fabrication 6 months in. Once he finally got it to where I could leave him on his own, you would have sworn, according to him, that he had invented the whole process. I was spending a lot of time telling him to "STFU."
Once family is in the mix there is just no telling what is going on behind the scenes. Has Jr. paid his dues anywhere else? I know of a company with a situation as you describe and the son is now chief and it is obvious he has never had his ass kicked anywhere and he is rough on his employees and I hear he was a dickhead in high school as well . If you aren't a member of their church or lick boots with the rest of the good o'l boy club, it's going to be a long day, every day.
It really is best just to not say more than necessary and don't be the main attraction in any shop until you are prompted to do so. I got let go from one place for being too quiet, which they took as a sign that I was not going to be a team player. Truth was, I was going thru a divorce at the time and was balancing two kids on top of all that. I was bolting out the door at quitting time praying to get to the daycare on time in rush hr in which to start my night shift doing all my home and child chores.
Sometimes the chemistry is just not there and I am thinking you should count this as a blessing of sorts. I don't take any crap either, which is a recipe for bad vibes if a few other egos get involved. Their problem being is that they seem to ignore the seniority rule. Especially if the senior is still working and kicking everyone's ass at the job. I do all the design, enacted all the layout procedures and take the heat if something doesn't work. Most guys seem to forget that when they start thinking they should get treated/paid the same as I do.
Actually, your opening comment about "couple years/stepping stone" would have had me aiming you towards the door on day 1. Your post started off as if you were too good for the place.
Once family is in the mix there is just no telling what is going on behind the scenes. Has Jr. paid his dues anywhere else? I know of a company with a situation as you describe and the son is now chief and it is obvious he has never had his ass kicked anywhere and he is rough on his employees and I hear he was a dickhead in high school as well . If you aren't a member of their church or lick boots with the rest of the good o'l boy club, it's going to be a long day, every day.
It really is best just to not say more than necessary and don't be the main attraction in any shop until you are prompted to do so. I got let go from one place for being too quiet, which they took as a sign that I was not going to be a team player. Truth was, I was going thru a divorce at the time and was balancing two kids on top of all that. I was bolting out the door at quitting time praying to get to the daycare on time in rush hr in which to start my night shift doing all my home and child chores.
Sometimes the chemistry is just not there and I am thinking you should count this as a blessing of sorts. I don't take any crap either, which is a recipe for bad vibes if a few other egos get involved. Their problem being is that they seem to ignore the seniority rule. Especially if the senior is still working and kicking everyone's ass at the job. I do all the design, enacted all the layout procedures and take the heat if something doesn't work. Most guys seem to forget that when they start thinking they should get treated/paid the same as I do.
Actually, your opening comment about "couple years/stepping stone" would have had me aiming you towards the door on day 1. Your post started off as if you were too good for the place.
Miller ABP 330, Syncrowave 250, Dynasty 300 DX.
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noddybrian
- noddybrian
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For what it's worth here's my take on it.
Don't sweat it or keep second guessing why they did'nt want you - it'll drive you mad ( unless this happens alot ! )
If they were hiring from a temp agency it may have been to see if they needed another guy or if the extra wages would equate to more production just as an experiment - maybe they did'nt replace you.
Even if they did replace you - maybe they were looking for something in particular in the guy - does'nt reflect on you if you were'nt their guy - maybe the agency could have done their matching better.
With family run stuff even if the parents knew the job there is every chance that Jnr never got a job on his own his whole life - he's probably a complete dick & likes to use the fact he can hire & fire just because he can & the fact you were not going to start kissing ass did'nt sit well with him - I worked a job similar to this although for longer - got the " not working out " speech - as luck would have it I saw him about a year later one shitty winter's night going into a bar - still had the same flash car that Daddy bought him - still had an attitude - when he came out I had to drop him from behind as I knew he'd cry to the cops if he saw me( spineless shit ) gave him a long overdue kicking - sad thing is that flash car got stolen the same night ! should have sold it to a chop shop really as they shafted me on wages - but I torched it ( outside Daddys house ! )
I gave up working for other people a while back - I don't earn a fortune working for myself - but I don't have to take shit from anyone - money is nice - but I'd sooner have some self respect & live on a budget - but thats just me !
Good luck with whatever you do next.
Don't sweat it or keep second guessing why they did'nt want you - it'll drive you mad ( unless this happens alot ! )
If they were hiring from a temp agency it may have been to see if they needed another guy or if the extra wages would equate to more production just as an experiment - maybe they did'nt replace you.
Even if they did replace you - maybe they were looking for something in particular in the guy - does'nt reflect on you if you were'nt their guy - maybe the agency could have done their matching better.
With family run stuff even if the parents knew the job there is every chance that Jnr never got a job on his own his whole life - he's probably a complete dick & likes to use the fact he can hire & fire just because he can & the fact you were not going to start kissing ass did'nt sit well with him - I worked a job similar to this although for longer - got the " not working out " speech - as luck would have it I saw him about a year later one shitty winter's night going into a bar - still had the same flash car that Daddy bought him - still had an attitude - when he came out I had to drop him from behind as I knew he'd cry to the cops if he saw me( spineless shit ) gave him a long overdue kicking - sad thing is that flash car got stolen the same night ! should have sold it to a chop shop really as they shafted me on wages - but I torched it ( outside Daddys house ! )
I gave up working for other people a while back - I don't earn a fortune working for myself - but I don't have to take shit from anyone - money is nice - but I'd sooner have some self respect & live on a budget - but thats just me !
Good luck with whatever you do next.
- Otto Nobedder
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Wow,
This has hit some soft spots in folk's histories!
I've experienced almost exactly what JKR describes, ONCE in my career. I'm always a good fit with the job, even if the job isn't a good fit for me, because I'm friendly, personable, and agreeable even when I disagree. I also have a great sense of humor, which has gotten me far in places I was underqualified for.
I signed on at a shop with a largely absent owner, and an ex Army Ranger for a shop foreman... 6-6 giant of a man who would scream like a girl at the sight of a snake. It was general fabrication. One day, I'd get yelled at for being too slow, the next for being too imprecise. You can't have both. I'm not a recruit, damnit!
I tolerated this abuse for about 9 months, because I needed the job, until one of the underlings decided HE could push me around, too. Enough's enough. Fist-fight in the lunchroom. End of job.
That's okay. Those sorry SOBs are still taking abuse for $12/hr, and they can have it.
Move on. Don't dwell on why it wasn't a good fit, just be gratefull you're not stuck there, hating to get out of bed to go to work in the morning.
I found great fits for me, and I'm currently so happy with what I do, you'll have to triple my money to make me THINK about walking.
This has hit some soft spots in folk's histories!
I've experienced almost exactly what JKR describes, ONCE in my career. I'm always a good fit with the job, even if the job isn't a good fit for me, because I'm friendly, personable, and agreeable even when I disagree. I also have a great sense of humor, which has gotten me far in places I was underqualified for.
I signed on at a shop with a largely absent owner, and an ex Army Ranger for a shop foreman... 6-6 giant of a man who would scream like a girl at the sight of a snake. It was general fabrication. One day, I'd get yelled at for being too slow, the next for being too imprecise. You can't have both. I'm not a recruit, damnit!
I tolerated this abuse for about 9 months, because I needed the job, until one of the underlings decided HE could push me around, too. Enough's enough. Fist-fight in the lunchroom. End of job.
That's okay. Those sorry SOBs are still taking abuse for $12/hr, and they can have it.
Move on. Don't dwell on why it wasn't a good fit, just be gratefull you're not stuck there, hating to get out of bed to go to work in the morning.
I found great fits for me, and I'm currently so happy with what I do, you'll have to triple my money to make me THINK about walking.
I had a guy tell me that my resume was one of the most impressive he has seen in a long time!
But we hired two guys right out of trade school instead! They were more suited to our present needs. WTF???????
Don't let it get you down. I had a toad fire me from a crappy $15 an hour fab shop job on a Friday and hired on at a power plant
at $32 an hour + on Monday! If you're not valued and appreciated then move on. If you have talent you'll always find work!
But we hired two guys right out of trade school instead! They were more suited to our present needs. WTF???????
Don't let it get you down. I had a toad fire me from a crappy $15 an hour fab shop job on a Friday and hired on at a power plant
at $32 an hour + on Monday! If you're not valued and appreciated then move on. If you have talent you'll always find work!
Hey, he asked!Otto Nobedder wrote:Wow,
This has hit some soft spots in folk's histories!
.
So, if you own your own business, how much time are you willing to invest in someone calling your business a stepping stone? Even if the hire doesn't actually say it, sometimes it shows. There's a price to pay to work in casual atmospheres.
Can't you by now call someone like you see them from initial impressions? I get it right with surprising accuracy. The one guy, I nailed on the head just by my boss's explanation over the phone and I was on vacation 900 miles away. It wasn't me that ended up having personal issues with the guy as much as the owner ended up having.
No foul intended at the OP, just that in a small family op, there isn't always room for 'all' of who you may be.
Miller ABP 330, Syncrowave 250, Dynasty 300 DX.
Honorary member of the Fraternity of Faded Tee Shirts.
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Jkr.
Every shop is different on that spectrum of allowing the workers to participate in decisions.
I try to meet the supervisor during the evaluation and I ask to see their shop, to try to size up the super and get a feel for that shop. Over half the jobs I have turned down after talking to the super and watching the shop at work.
Tanks for sharing.
Alexa
Every shop is different on that spectrum of allowing the workers to participate in decisions.
I try to meet the supervisor during the evaluation and I ask to see their shop, to try to size up the super and get a feel for that shop. Over half the jobs I have turned down after talking to the super and watching the shop at work.
Tanks for sharing.
Alexa
noddybrian
- noddybrian
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Weldmonger
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Am I the only one sad enough or remembers this appropriate song to go with the post ? ( come on all you "Bigfoot " fans !
EPrSVkTRb24
EPrSVkTRb24
I appreciate everyone's input. I've been comparing what you've posted what my peers know about me and what I've reflected on.
The owner's son wasn't dickish about anything. I asked him to be explicit. I think he was. After considering everything, I believe it would not have worked out eventually anyway. I think we could've both figure this out during an interview, if there'd actually been one. I think they were just trying me on for size and then deciding. Either way, I think I'm done with the mom and pop scene.
michialt, I appreciate the insight. With what you and others have said I am going to be more attentive to the way I come off. But I've never felt that I could run a business better. I've always felt that they can't run a business for shit. I know that my personality would bleed into the business just as much anyone else, if I ran "my way". I've always thought it would be better to do things the right way, a standard professionalism with a structure that I'd adhere to as well, NOT running a business in a manner that suits my strengths and covers my weakness.
Also, I've always had it in my mind (when the business is to small to have a structure) that if one of my employees thought I was being retarded, he/she should be able to express that criticism without fear of repercussions. I don't mind being called an idiot or asshole as long as it's true. I don't know if I'll ever start this utopian business, but that's some of how I picture running it.
I know there's alot more to running a business, but these are my thoughts on how to avoid becoming what I hate.
The owner's son wasn't dickish about anything. I asked him to be explicit. I think he was. After considering everything, I believe it would not have worked out eventually anyway. I think we could've both figure this out during an interview, if there'd actually been one. I think they were just trying me on for size and then deciding. Either way, I think I'm done with the mom and pop scene.
michialt, I appreciate the insight. With what you and others have said I am going to be more attentive to the way I come off. But I've never felt that I could run a business better. I've always felt that they can't run a business for shit. I know that my personality would bleed into the business just as much anyone else, if I ran "my way". I've always thought it would be better to do things the right way, a standard professionalism with a structure that I'd adhere to as well, NOT running a business in a manner that suits my strengths and covers my weakness.
Also, I've always had it in my mind (when the business is to small to have a structure) that if one of my employees thought I was being retarded, he/she should be able to express that criticism without fear of repercussions. I don't mind being called an idiot or asshole as long as it's true. I don't know if I'll ever start this utopian business, but that's some of how I picture running it.
I know there's alot more to running a business, but these are my thoughts on how to avoid becoming what I hate.