[tigger]

Hello, i have a large dilema, i am an industrial electrician and live in the UK. i am now at the end of my 4 year apprenticeship- passed all my exams and now its just a case of finishing my job report portfolio and ticking boxxes-( pen pusher crap..) i have a workshop where me and a friend build old vws ( mines a mk2 golf 20v turbo!!) during the build of this project i bought a DC murex TIG machine which i love.. As I work in factories and engineering firms looking after and installing new machinery i have been able to get some great advice from other pro welders which has helped my technique and knowledge and not to mention this site-( i get on here everyday after work while im waiting for my tea to cook and then i realize ive been on here too long when i can smell burnt pizzza!) so really im self taught and i weld anything i can get my hands on. i would like to post some pictures of some of the things i have dreamed up and fabricated for my car at some point. My problem is this--- i feel like i am enjoying metal work more than my job and cant wait to get up the workshop to strike that arc!! i should have become an engineer when i left school but things didnt happen that way. i want to become a fabricator/tig welder as i think i have a real flare for it. i wouldnt leave my job untill i get all my paperwork as i dont want to waste the last 4 years, not to mention its been the most worthwhile and satisfying job ive ever had. Am i being stupid or is this a viable option? Im 23 so i dont think its too late but time is ticking.. What i really want to know is- do i need any welding qualifications to get my foot in the door of an engineering firm? ive found part time-evening 32 week courses in tig welding at local colleges. If i took this path in life then i plan to get experience welding for an engineering firm for a few years and then start my own welding fabrication bussiness. any help, advice or wisdom would be greatly appreciated. cheers, tom.

[gurew]

i was a software engineer before i decided to become a welder, im only 25 years old...

i will say that top level welding/fabrication is somewhat cutthroat. i will make a product only to see someone come out a few months later with the same type of product for half the price. just some things to think about if you wanted to do your own business type of deal.



i enjoy making stuff like this and i enjoy it so much that i will gladly undercut anyones price just so i can keep making them

[tigger]

ooo0oo, now thats what im talking about!! how did you get into welding then if you dont mind me asking? have you got any qualifications in welding? i only ask because i spoke to the owner of a local engineering firm with a small team of tig welders and i asked if i had to have a qualification for him to take me on and he said no, but he will set me up with some test work to see what i can do. Another firm has given me a small surplus hydraulic ram body to weld up and then they will pressure test it on a hydraulic power pack to see if it leaks- if it doesnt then i could get batch work that i can do in my evenings in my workshop. I think that batch work for different firms could be the foundation of my business and then any custom work or products of my own can supplement the rest of it. Im gonna do the 32 week course just because i think i could benefit from it but although i get a qualification from it, it wont be the same as a full blown apprenticeship i presume. Im used to paperwork as the electrical trade is fraught with the stuff and if you havnt got the qualifications then your not gonna get anywhere. Love that manifold..

[gurew]

i have no real training or schooling in this only a few pointers by local friends who are heavy in this field

basically how i got started was i wanted a roll cage in my car, i was quoted $1800 for a very basic cage. figured i had the skills to learn to do what was needed and decided to buy a tig welder since i could also weld aluminum and tig is oh so sexy for cages.

do i have a cage in my car now? naw lol but i do own my own shop now that pretty much stemmed from buying my welder. i have since bought a water cooler and torch, i personally own 3 tanks of argon now and i keep atleast 5lbs about 10 types of filler, stainless 308, 309, 316, aluminum 5356 etc...

if you are in the auto industry fabing and welding things...i have not seen anyone with any certs...just being able to pass certain tests your boss might give you. the majority of the welding i do has to be very pretty to the eye as well as strong to not break being the manifolds get red hot

if you have to weld anything auto related let me know i can give you some pointers

[tigger]

so how long have you been tig welding then? ive been doing it nearly a year but argon is very expensive and i cant justify buying it all the time just to weld scrap metal lol, so my practice suffers, so i try to be economical with it unless i find the need to make a bracket or something and then its all systems go!!!
A roll cage is something i would like to make when i start my mk1 golf project, which brings me onto my next question- what do you use to bend the tubing? as an electrician we bend steel conduit on an A frame bender but it only does about 25mm max. looking at your manifold it seems youve made bends and cut them into sections. Do you have a milling machine for making the flanges?
sorry for all the questions but im impressed and need to know more!

[ogorir]

I don't know if this is what gurew is doing, but you can buy mandrel bent sections of tubing to weld together in different angles and lengths and, generally speaking, manifold flanges are available for almost every engine you can think of. most pipe railings on in parks or on concrete steps, ect, are fabbed in the same way. the bends are like pipe fitting elbows, only they fit flush, then they grind the weld smooth.

[gurew]

i mean for obvious reasons i can tell you EVERYTHING but ill help you get started on a manifold...


sch40 piping elbows and straight, if you want to make a manifold i can sell you the piping and flanges since everything is made local and we have wholesale accounts, i used to make manifolds out of pre-bent mandrel tubing but that costs way too much and they eventually crack due to holding up the weight of the huge ass turbos we run

sch40 piping, we warranty them for life heavy as santa but they work great and last forever

you use 316SS 1/16 or 1/32 rod for the runners and you use 309SS 1/16 for the flanges

run 200amps on the head flanges and make 2 passes, runners, really depends on which elbows you get, china ones are junk obviously...i can maybe sell you a "kit" of materials, if you plan to weld Stainless you better go buy the biggest gas lens and cup you can find..bigger the better, you will go through a ton of gas (25-35cfh), also you need to back purge your welds at 10-15cfh so you use alot of gas but the outcome is beautiful!!! look at the manifold i posted

[jakeru]

... argon is very expensive and i cant justify buying it all the time just to weld scrap metal lol, so my practice suffers, so i try to be economical with it unless i find the need to make a bracket or something and then its all systems go!!!

For reducing the variable costs of learning welding, totally consider (and ask your local gas supplier about) upgrading to a larger argon tank! I upgraded my 80 cf to a 150 cf and it really is helping with reducing the variable cost of Argon. I don't need to refill as often, and when I do, the cost per CF is far lower with the larger tank.

The other thing I stumbled on (but I consider myself lucky in this regard as it is location specific) was in the corner area of my local metal supplier, they have a really well organized collection of "virgin, fresh from the mill, grading stickers still on them", metals of various sorts, that they can't really sell at their usual asking price (because for example, many are 11" lengths so can't be sold as foot long pieces), and they are letting them all go, all you can eat, at dirt cheap "scrap metal recycling" prices! (IE: $2-$4 / lb!) That costs sooo much less than buying metals at the full usual price, I am trying to stock up so I have a nice little assortment of various materials, shapes and sizes to tackle variety of projects that may come my way. Between getting good materials at scrap metal prices, and lower the cost of argon, I am now finding myself using a lot more filler rod! (actually doing a lot more welding!)

best of luck

[gurew]

holy crap where are you from? im in az and metal is far cheaper than that...

$1.50lb for aluminum
$0.50lb for steels

5356 1/16 and 3/32 filler by the 5lb box is around $27

gas, well ok i go through alot of gas, but a 275 tank costs me $38 delivered, i believe that without my company discount its around $54 per tank if you pick up/drop off

[tigger]

I dont think im ready to make a manifold 'just' yet as you suggested running at 200 amps and ive only got a 150A DC murex tradestig 151i- I realize that im gona have to upgrade to a larger AC/DC machine if i want to make a real go in this game. A local firm has a miller aerowave and i want it!!

I bought a gas lens from our local-ish welding shop and just asked for a 2.4 and 1.6 gas lens and cups to suit as thats what size electrodes came with my welder and i like to use that and the Wp9 flexi neck torch for the win!. Not sure what size the cups are as they dont have a number rating on them but the 2.4 is about 8-9mm in diameter. I dont know much about the gas lens, electrode and cup size vs amperage and gas flow rate kind of stuff but thats why i want to attend a college course to learn this stuff and know it! I dont have much time to talk to welders at engineering firms as im supposed to be working but a bloke at a firm told me to get a gas lens and its made loads of difference, its smooooooth.. (laminar

Jakeru- I got all my metal sheets for nothing as i do alot of work for a auto panel manufacturers and its all clean new sheet offcuts from the guilotene
But im not going to tell you how much money i pay for gas here in the UK because it sounds like im being robbed!!! i think i will step up to a larger tank though.

By back-purging do you mean putting a 'Y' connector from the gas tank and leading a pipe into the inside of the job i am welding-like the manifold? as ive heard of this before.

I must sound like a rite noob but all ive really been doing is trying to hone my technique and make brackets when i need to. Dont know what i would have done without my welder now ive got it!

You mite not be interested as its not a sexy manifold lol, but heres some of the little projects ive been busy with:

Header tank bracket, the old one mounted on the other side but this engine came with a new one that needed to be this side and the 2 M8 studs sticking out of the suspension turret were too good to pass up:
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/2.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/3.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/4.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/5.jpg

I made a custom stainless centre section exhaust from off the shelf straight lengths and bends with no silencer mid boxxes, from the end of the turbo down pipe to the backbox. I had to cut off the hanger bracket from the old system and weld it to the new system. (first time i actualy welded anything that i had spent actual money on lol)
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/6.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/7.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/9.jpg

This is the thing im most proud of making so far as it was an idea that came to life from a cardboard template. the air filter was too close to the turbo pipe for comfort so i made this heat sheild. theres a heat proof mat inside it which is the same thing i used to sheild my bulkhead from the turbo. The crappy looking bit by the short collar is the back of the weld, as i wanted the rubber pipe it goes into, to fit nice and square and when its on there you cant see it.
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/10.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/11.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/12.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/13.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/14.jpg
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/15.jpg

And heres a throttle cable bracket i made as the one that came with the engine was doggy poo poo.. and the bent out piece at the bottom is so that the aux water pump that cools the turbo can be 'jubilee clipped' to it, this engine is not supposed to have one but im using a larger turbo from an audi TT (K04)
http://www.designerdrawingsltd.com/16.jpg

Hope you enjoy them nearly as much as i enjoyed making them. (doubtfull..)

[jakeru]

holy crap where are you from? im in az and metal is far cheaper than that...

$1.50lb for aluminum
$0.50lb for steels

5356 1/16 and 3/32 filler by the 5lb box is around $27

gas, well ok i go through alot of gas, but a 275 tank costs me $38 delivered, i believe that without my company discount its around $54 per tank if you pick up/drop off

I am in greater seattle area, which may be more expensive than arizona (certainly price of land/rent is much higher...) but maybe not, as there is a lot of industry around here, so probably a lot of demand for metals and supplies, so probably many "botique/specialty" suppliers I just haven't checked out yet.

I actually paid only $5 for my last 1 lb MIG spool of 4043 from my LWS, so I am pretty pleased about that, to be honest it was half of what I was expecting to pay. I will be definitely be returning there for more aluminum filler rod. I am just a small time hobbiest fabricator, not a large account.

As for metals price... at the onlinemetals place I was thinking of, (which is local to me), in their "scrap" corner, I think it was only the copper in that was "officially" $4/lb. The aluminum and stainless I think were supposed to be $3/lb, steel $2/lb. But they were actually pretty "loose" with the weighing, I think I had a whole variety of various scrap in my hands of various types (aluminum and copper mostly) and the guy working there just looked at it (didn't even put it on the scale) and said something like "how about $5?" I picked up some copper chiller blocks / stock, aluminum angle, various pieces of aluminum tubing, and a couple pieces of aluminum angle. Let me tell you, I have really gotten my $5 worth from that purchase.

I wish I could find $1.50/lb for fresh, unused, graded aluminum stock... Isn't that below what the price recyclers would pay to buy the materials for though? That wouldn't make sense, to be able to buy virgin materials somewhere for so cheap, and resell to a scrapper for a profit. Maybe I am off as to what the prices for scrap metals are though.

But before I knew about the "scrap" area of the place though, I bought some 5052 aluminum sheet from them through their online "retail storefront", .065" thick, 1'x4' piece for about $18 after tax (locally picked up at least, so no shipping tacked on), which I think at .88lbs/ square foot for the material, wold work out to around $5/lb I think:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cf ... 0&top_cat=
I thought that was a *bit* spendy. So for me, $2/lb (or even less) if I could find one or more pieces of scrap in the scrap area (probably could have... as I cut the large sheet into mostly little pieces to make an intercooler end tank), would have probably cut my costs for those materials into about a third.

And I have even bought in the past (actually still do occasionally, when I don't feel like driving across down, for small items) from the local hardware stores, such as ace, lowes, or home depot. I recently paid $.88 for 1" long piece of ~3/8" OD, 1/16" wall thickness aluminum tubing from them. Actually, it was in their hardware bins, marketed as an "aluminum spacer" for $.88. You can see that $.88 piece welded into the middle of my boost tube (pictured below.)
If I found it in the online metals scrap bin, I would probably know what grade of aluminum it was, and $.88 would probably buy me a few feet of it.

OK that's probably an absurd example, but any metal stock from the hardware section of home depot, lowes, etc are comparatively MUCH more expensive than even onlinemetals "full retail" locally picked up price. I at least have been learning where less expensive options are!

From the cheaper gas supplier in town, Argon costs me about $45'ish (after all taxes and fees) for an 80 cf owner owned, swapped exchanged I think, and $50-$55'ish for a 150 cf owner owned, swapped/exchanged. But there are only about 3 different companies (although many retail outlets) selling gas in the area.

[gurew]

dang man remind me never to move there because i couldnt afford to weld anymore.....i get the BIG bottles for $38 delivered to my shop, i usually get 2-3 bottles a week sometimes i wont get any bottles for weeks

[tigger]

well i can certainly remind you not to live in the UK if you want to weld! I pay approx £60 per bottle of gas ( cant remember what size it is, but the bottle is about 3 and a half foot tall ) and i have to pay £7 a month for the privillage of having their bottle to keep it in!! when its done i just take it back and get a full one. I would buy myself a bottle and get it filled but i dont know where i would take it. but i think i better find out because its costing me a fortune!

[Burf86]

Yo tigger blud

I'm in the UK as well and I'm wanting to do pretty much the same as you.
Iv wanted to be a welder for many years but ended up going to Uni to study Engineering. After I left I decided I didn't want to work in a design office and decided to follow the welding route. Iv been working in a sheet metal fab shop for about 7 months now. I got myself onto a tig welding course at a local college and started dropping CV's into every company on any industrial sight I could find. The company I'm at now offered me a job as a trainee. I'm 24 and getting £6 per hour... but apart from all the scurfing I love it. Just gonna stay there for a year to build up my experience and try find better jobs after that.
I want to start my own company too, making bike frames. Looking into buying a 200a ac/dc machine from R-Tech. (If you haven't seen them check out http://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/welding_ ... Tig_Welder).

Good luck with getting things set up.

[jakeru]

gurew - I am doing a little aluminum fab project for someone on the side, so have an opportunity to shop around with some new supplier in my area. I have now checked a total of four local metal suppliers.

Best price I found on a .063" 5052 sheet was $52 for a 3x8 sheet. That was from alaskan copper and brass. http://www.alaskancopper.com/ That sheet would weigh 21 lbs, so would be $2.47 / lb (plus 9% tax.) However, this place also has a $100 minimum order, so I won't be buying there, don't need that much. That is a great price for whole sheets though. A couple other places I checked prices on are selling sheets of the same grade and thickness, for the same price, but for a smaller 4'x4' sheet. One sold a 4 x 8 sheet for $85.

I'll be sticking with online metals though (place I bought from in the past), even though it's a little pricier per pound, because they can shear me just the pieces I need for about $75. I don't have good cutting tools, and this will really make the job easier not needing to mess with cutting the pieces. I can also beef up the thickness in just the pieces I need with little extra cost and the customer liked that idea.

Alaskan copper has a "cash only" shop in Seattle, which might have even lower per pound prices on odds and ends, which I will have to check sometime.

This is my first "professional", fab from customer supplied specs project. I've already done some welding work professionally. Repaired someones radio controlled airplane exhaust pipes, which were made out of aluminum. (Not your average R/C airplane... a 40 lb monster!) Turned out really well; customer wants to bring me to their booth at a trade show next year to repair other people's broken mufflers!

[tigger]

yo BURF86 blud!, sounds like youve got your foot well and truly in the door my friend. i used to work in a book making factory operating a folding machine before i became an electrician and i left that job cuz i just didnt like being kooped up in there all day, so i dont think i would want to work as a batch welder just putting together brackets all day- i work in industrial factories and ive seen it first hand, it seems that most people are not qualified but doing the same welding as a qualified guy- you just have to pass a test set by the boss.. But having your own firm doing somthing different most days and sometimes going out on site would be ideal! I have come to the decision that im not going to attend a tig course- i asked a coded welder from one of the firms i visit to come to my workshop and give me some pointers. to cut a long story short he said that he couldnt fault my welding! hes a proper old skool stickler and he couldnt find anything wrong with my technique! so a combination of good advice from here and other welders i know+ lots of practice has turned me into a sound welder, i just want to know more about different metals which i dont think will be covered in a tig course- just need more expeience. I just looked at that welder and wow that is cheap! i like the look of the 160A AC/DC the most cuz it looks like it has more controls but as ive never heard of that company before, i wouldnt be able to vouch for it. all i will say is, you usually get what you pay for and that much welder for so little money is suspect, but who am i to say.. hope you land the type of job that suits you mate. I however, am gona carry on with the electrical trade to get some more money in and then think about making some money from this welding lark in the evenings and weekends and see where it takes me. Where abouts in the UK are you? anywhere near Wiltshire??