Need a little advice

nathan · Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:21 pm

I got a side gig that I'm losing money on. The guy wants me to cut holes in a 500 gallon propane tank and Weld two pipes in. We filled it with water and used a grinder to cut a hole in the bottom, that took two hours. Now I'm n3eding to borrow a torch from someone. I'm having some big time second thoughts about this, cause I don't want to blow up. And I'm only going to be paid $50 and a co2 tank. What's y'all's take? I hate turning away work, especially after I already started, but I really am dreading this job. When we talked on the phone, I got the idea that I would just be welding the pipes on the tank, cause he.claimed to have been a pipe fitter and said that they would be butt welded. Then he brought it over and I learned otherwise.

Braehill · Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:13 pm

Nathan,
If you already cut the hole in the tank the blowing up part has all but been eliminated.

If you're learning something in this process, chalk it up to education and finish the job, move on with a lesson learned.

Just my opinion.

Len

plain ol Bill · Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:12 pm

I assume your customer expects to put propane back into the tank? Propane tanks are an ASME pressure vessel. Butt joints NOT acceptable. Unqualified welders not acceptable.

nathan · Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:15 pm

plain ol Bill wrote:I assume your customer expects to put propane back into the tank? Propane tanks are an ASME pressure vessel. Butt joints NOT acceptable. Unqualified welders not acceptable.

Oh no lol he intends to use it for waste oil. I wouldn't do any actual pressure vessel work.

ttreb4 · Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:36 pm

If there was a misunderstanding then that should have been settled when he arrived and before you started work. Now that you started I feel integrity is the issue and you need to finish. I understand that you're not getting paid a lot in cash but more "in kind". An option would be to sub the cutting work out which would allow you to work another job thereby offsetting your losses on this job. Once the holes were in place then you could bring it back in house and do the welding. With the proper equipment it doesn't seem like it would take that long to cut the holes. Good luck with your decision.

nathan · Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:37 pm

Thanks for the replies, y'all.
I decided to go ahead and do it. It's not like I have regular side work, I just take an odd job every few weeks to stay busy. Mostly I was worried about blowing myself up, but that didn't happen. Lesson learned: don't quote or take a job until you see it.

nathan · Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:40 pm

I guess this "learning experience" has a lesson or two in it. I think I need to come up with an actual way to quote jobs. Anyone care to share their formula? I was told that triple the material cost is a starting point, but sometimes even that seems pretty low... I'm thinking maybe double material cost, plus $30/hour, 2 hour minimum. Thoughts?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:42 pm

nathan wrote:I guess this "learning experience" has a lesson or two in it. I think I need to come up with an actual way to quote jobs. Anyone care to share their formula? I was told that triple the material cost is a starting point, but sometimes even that seems pretty low... I'm thinking maybe double material cost, plus $30/hour, 2 hour minimum. Thoughts?

This refers to time only, but Thomas Edison once said, "Whatever you expect it to take, double it, and add 10 %"

This formula works very well to protect you on bids where your time is your money.

Materials are hard to mis-estimate by much unless you really screw the pooch, and have to cut out and start over.

Steve S

Boomer63 · Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:32 am

nathan wrote:I guess this "learning experience" has a lesson or two in it. I think I need to come up with an actual way to quote jobs. Anyone care to share their formula? I was told that triple the material cost is a starting point, but sometimes even that seems pretty low... I'm thinking maybe double material cost, plus $30/hour, 2 hour minimum. Thoughts?

First, I would say that $30 per hour is way, way low.

Very basically, here is how I used to figure how much I needed to make per hour:
Add up ALL expenses; health insurance, workers comp, contractors insurance (2 million dollar coverage per incident), electric, truck expenses, depreciation of equipment, maintenance .. and on and on and on - them generate a yearly total for this 'stuff'. Figure out how many days you will actually work in a year. As an owner, you won't work 5 or 6 days - you spend time driving around looking at work, picking up material, maintaining equipment, purchasing shop materials and consubables, etc. The point is that you need to know about the number of days you REALLY work in a year. THEN! Divide your 'yearly expense' by 50 weeks in a year. Next, divide that number by how many days you actually work. That number is how much you need to make on the days you work. For me, it worked out to something like $400 to $600 per day, which, if you divide by a ten hour day gets you to ... what ..? ... $40 per hour? Or so?

Hope this is helpful!
Gary

Boomer63 · Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:35 am

Oh ... one more thing.

Stay away from 'odd ball' or 'weird' jobs. Or else, if you take them, charge a very, very high rate to do it. There is a reason no one else wants to touch this thing, and you are better off staying away from it. The same thing with a pain in the ass customer - charge them way over what you would normally charge; for example, if I have a job that I would normally sell for $2K, and the guy is an asshole, I might charge $5K. If I get it, fine. If not, I will never know how much aggravation I saved myself! Avoiding aggravation is worth it! Getting bogged down in a stupid, weird job is not! Some things are JUST NOT WORTH IT!!!!!

rick9345 · Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:41 am

Boomer63 wrote:Oh ... one more thing.

Stay away from 'odd ball' or 'weird' jobs. Or else, if you take them, charge a very, very high rate to do it. There is a reason no one else wants to touch this thing, and you are better off staying away from it. The same thing with a pain in the ass customer - charge them way over what you would normally charge; for example, if I have a job that I would normally sell for $2K, and the guy is an asshole, I might charge $5K. If I get it, fine. If not, I will never know how much aggravation I saved myself! Avoiding aggravation is worth it! Getting bogged down in a stupid, weird job is not! Some things are JUST NOT WORTH IT!!!!!

Agree with foresight thou.
But--t "integrity" if one starts, finish. Or man up and admit one is in over their head.
Eager to do a job and capable are not the same thing

nathan · Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:30 pm

Well, the job is done. Had to do some "ghetto metal fab" but I got it done without blowing up.

Here is what I am thinking:
1. I'm not doing this for a living. I have my big welding job that pays for the family, and it has insurance, etc. covered. Side jobs are what I use to perpetuate my addiction.

2. It feels good having "manned up" and finished the job, even if I lost money. I'm considering that an "education fee."

3. 'Nother job coming up this weekend, so I am pretty excited. I told the guy that I wouldn't quote the job (a rail on a small trailer) until I saw the trailer, made a plan, and priced materials. I am much more confident going into this job than the last.

4. I think my quote process will be this: double material cost, figure in a grinding wheel per job, half a roll of wire/rod per job, gas (if necessary), $15 for electricity use, and an overnight storage rate (if necessary). After this, I will figure between $25-60/hour for labor. Plus a $894.98 asshole fee, if applicable. Prices negotiable for friends, family, and people with valuable trade offers.

I appreciate everyone's wisdom and experience! And have mad respect for you guys doing this as their main business. Thanks for the ideas on what I need to figure into jobs.

ttreb4 · Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:53 pm

Boomer63 wrote:
nathan wrote:I guess this "learning experience" has a lesson or two in it. I think I need to come up with an actual way to quote jobs. Anyone care to share their formula? I was told that triple the material cost is a starting point, but sometimes even that seems pretty low... I'm thinking maybe double material cost, plus $30/hour, 2 hour minimum. Thoughts?
First, I would say that $30 per hour is way, way low.

Very basically, here is how I used to figure how much I needed to make per hour:
Add up ALL expenses; health insurance, workers comp, contractors insurance (2 million dollar coverage per incident), electric, truck expenses, depreciation of equipment, maintenance .. and on and on and on - them generate a yearly total for this 'stuff'. Figure out how many days you will actually work in a year. As an owner, you won't work 5 or 6 days - you spend time driving around looking at work, picking up material, maintaining equipment, purchasing shop materials and consubables, etc. The point is that you need to know about the number of days you REALLY work in a year. THEN! Divide your 'yearly expense' by 50 weeks in a year. Next, divide that number by how many days you actually work. That number is how much you need to make on the days you work. For me, it worked out to something like $400 to $600 per day, which, if you divide by a ten hour day gets you to ... what ..? ... $40 per hour? Or so?

Hope this is helpful!
Gary

This is very well stated the more accurate you are at knowing what it actually costs the better you will become at bidding a job and you wont be afraid to walk away from a job that doesn't pencil out. Don't forget to value your time. Generally people are willing to pay a premium for expertise (skilled quality workmanship and knowledge). Don't be afraid to charge for what you are worth.

Boomer63 · Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:49 am

nathan wrote:Well, the job is done. Had to do some "ghetto metal fab" but I got it done without blowing up.

Here is what I am thinking:
1. I'm not doing this for a living. I have my big welding job that pays for the family, and it has insurance, etc. covered. Side jobs are what I use to perpetuate my addiction.

2. It feels good having "manned up" and finished the job, even if I lost money. I'm considering that an "education fee."

3. 'Nother job coming up this weekend, so I am pretty excited. I told the guy that I wouldn't quote the job (a rail on a small trailer) until I saw the trailer, made a plan, and priced materials. I am much more confident going into this job than the last.

4. I think my quote process will be this: double material cost, figure in a grinding wheel per job, half a roll of wire/rod per job, gas (if necessary), $15 for electricity use, and an overnight storage rate (if necessary). After this, I will figure between $25-60/hour for labor. Plus a $894.98 asshole fee, if applicable. Prices negotiable for friends, family, and people with valuable trade offers.

I appreciate everyone's wisdom and experience! And have mad respect for you guys doing this as their main business. Thanks for the ideas on what I need to figure into jobs.

Hi Nathan! What you are saying makes sense. You are entirely correct that sometimes you take a beating on a job just for the learning experience. I have been where you are, and as long as I treated my part time business as part time, I was doing alright. My mistake came in jumping it to full time way too soon. I lost my ass! Also, I like your $894.98 'asshole' fee. I can see you thought a lot about that. The only thing I would suggest is charging $894.99. Just sayin'!!

Carry on, brother, and keep us posted!