Tried a forum search and I didn't see any threads where anyone asked this question recently. Hope I got it in the right area.
Why join a union?
Let me clarify a little of my background. I'm not in a union and I don't think I believe in them. My experience in a previous job was that unions were crutches that bad employees used when they were in trouble. I don't necessarily want to be part of something like that, but I have seen a lot of you guys speaking highly of your unions. What do welders' unions do so right? What is the benefit? Do you see any bad workers being defended by these institutions? What can union members do that I can't? What can I do that union members can't? Don't unions hold you back, saying what kind of work you can and can't do?
I'm not dogging unions, I'm trying to learn about them. I may not ever join one, but I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to join them at all. I want to hear views from union folks and non-union folks.
Nathan.
If you are interested in unions, you might consider reading some trade union history. Especially of those unions that represent welders. Also you might make a visit to the locals unions headquarters to get more information.
Keep all your options open.
Alexa
If you are interested in unions, you might consider reading some trade union history. Especially of those unions that represent welders. Also you might make a visit to the locals unions headquarters to get more information.
Keep all your options open.
Alexa
- Otto Nobedder
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Some benefits to trade unions:
Excellent training structure (not perfect, but nothing is).
Careful placement... You will not be sent to a job above your current skill level.
Collective bargaining assures a fair wage, access to insurance and other benefits (including retirement), and good safety oversight.
Some negatives:
When the economy contracts, and there are more workers than jobs, jobs are let by seniority, so newer members are benched first.
When there's no work, dues are still payable (though often at a reduced rate).
When there's a strike, you are expected to stand with the union, even as your family suffers. (Work outside the trade to support your family is tolerated, taking a non-union job within your trade has repercussions.)
Some benefits to non-union work:
Freedom to work "at will"; there are no repercussions for dragging a bad job and moving on (beyond with the company you quit, of course).
Flexibility to work outside your primary trade as the job market varies.
Some negatives:
Safety is often a lower priority than production.
Insurance is sketchy at best, as you move from company to company to follow the work.
The "at-will" nature means you can be fired without cause.
I regularly see entire companies run off a job site for safety issues, as they man the job with unqualified/underqualified hands.
Steve S
Excellent training structure (not perfect, but nothing is).
Careful placement... You will not be sent to a job above your current skill level.
Collective bargaining assures a fair wage, access to insurance and other benefits (including retirement), and good safety oversight.
Some negatives:
When the economy contracts, and there are more workers than jobs, jobs are let by seniority, so newer members are benched first.
When there's no work, dues are still payable (though often at a reduced rate).
When there's a strike, you are expected to stand with the union, even as your family suffers. (Work outside the trade to support your family is tolerated, taking a non-union job within your trade has repercussions.)
Some benefits to non-union work:
Freedom to work "at will"; there are no repercussions for dragging a bad job and moving on (beyond with the company you quit, of course).
Flexibility to work outside your primary trade as the job market varies.
Some negatives:
Safety is often a lower priority than production.
Insurance is sketchy at best, as you move from company to company to follow the work.
The "at-will" nature means you can be fired without cause.
I regularly see entire companies run off a job site for safety issues, as they man the job with unqualified/underqualified hands.
Steve S
The way I see it, I can bargain for myself. I would rather not be required by any person or group to not do my job. That seems like bad business to me, especially since I love doing the work I do.
I don't understand having job preference given to those who have been working longer. I understand that folks that have been working longer can have more experience, but I'm sure there are beginner welders that are freaking good at what they do. What is so bad about merit-based employment?
Those are my two huge issues with it. I'm not saying nobody should join unions. I see that for some, the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks of membership.
Are you in a union, Otto?
I don't understand having job preference given to those who have been working longer. I understand that folks that have been working longer can have more experience, but I'm sure there are beginner welders that are freaking good at what they do. What is so bad about merit-based employment?
Those are my two huge issues with it. I'm not saying nobody should join unions. I see that for some, the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks of membership.
Are you in a union, Otto?
Instagram: @nathanppiatt
Owner/welder at Homegrown Metal Fab
Lincoln Weld-Pak 125 HD
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Owner/welder at Homegrown Metal Fab
Lincoln Weld-Pak 125 HD
Lincoln AC/DC 225/125
Lincoln Port-a-torch
30" 40 ton homegrown press brake
Northern Industrial1HP 3/4" chuck, 16 speed drill press
Nathan.
Union perform collective bargaining. So, if you want to bargain for yourself, then perhaps the union is not the path for you to take. And if you do not feel tranquil with seniority, then again, perhaps the union is not the path for you to take.
There are many jobs out there, union and non union. It looks like you will be choosing from those that are not union jobs.
Enjoy welding.
Alexa
Union perform collective bargaining. So, if you want to bargain for yourself, then perhaps the union is not the path for you to take. And if you do not feel tranquil with seniority, then again, perhaps the union is not the path for you to take.
There are many jobs out there, union and non union. It looks like you will be choosing from those that are not union jobs.
Enjoy welding.
Alexa
- Otto Nobedder
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Location:Near New Orleans
Nathan, I am not, nor have I ever been, in a union.
I know hands at my experience level who have joined the union (you get credit for demonstrable skills and work experience), because they saw the plusses.
I know hands at my experience level who've told the union what to go do with itself over internal politics and other issues, and quit.
There is no "one size fits all". You must choose the path that suits you best.
The decision also is tempered by where you want to work. If you want to work in New York State, and particularly New York City, you're almost obligated to join the union, unless you speak Spanish and enjoy lawn care.
Steve S
I know hands at my experience level who have joined the union (you get credit for demonstrable skills and work experience), because they saw the plusses.
I know hands at my experience level who've told the union what to go do with itself over internal politics and other issues, and quit.
There is no "one size fits all". You must choose the path that suits you best.
The decision also is tempered by where you want to work. If you want to work in New York State, and particularly New York City, you're almost obligated to join the union, unless you speak Spanish and enjoy lawn care.
Steve S
jwmacawful
- jwmacawful
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nathan, i see you just graduated welding school. congrats! why don't you at least wear out your first pair of work boots before deciding weather to join a union or not? in my neck of the woods working non union is like saying you'll work for low wages and pay for your own training. either way good luck to you.
I'll try and answer what I can. To start I'm a 5th generation steamfitter. I know what your thinking. Daddy got you in haha.
Luckily the UA requires a certain amount of training and skill tests to become an apprentice. After graduating from Hobart I tested at the Dayton, Ohio pipe fitters local. 3 tests, stainless, chrome, gtaw on sch40 2". 1 xxh 2" low carbon stick. They shot those to asme section 9 b31.1. That was to get into the apprenticeship at 20 years old. I was still by no means a "welder".
A trade union is supposed to supply quality craftsman to a contractor. That's its sole purpose. When I say quality I mean. Showing up on time, clean, drug/alcohol free, and with knowledge of the trade. Knowledge of my trade could range from figuring rolling offsets to setting up a critical lift. All of this knowledge is packed in a 5 year apprenticeship program. Now the benefit is having a 40 hour week if you want. Unlimited training access. Business agent to help you find work. Ability to vote for where your money goes on the check. Good insurance and pension, and alot of support from your local brothers.
I'll encourage you to study some union history. Mostly to see what unions have brought to American workers. Sorry for being long winded and hope it helps answer your question.
Vince
Luckily the UA requires a certain amount of training and skill tests to become an apprentice. After graduating from Hobart I tested at the Dayton, Ohio pipe fitters local. 3 tests, stainless, chrome, gtaw on sch40 2". 1 xxh 2" low carbon stick. They shot those to asme section 9 b31.1. That was to get into the apprenticeship at 20 years old. I was still by no means a "welder".
A trade union is supposed to supply quality craftsman to a contractor. That's its sole purpose. When I say quality I mean. Showing up on time, clean, drug/alcohol free, and with knowledge of the trade. Knowledge of my trade could range from figuring rolling offsets to setting up a critical lift. All of this knowledge is packed in a 5 year apprenticeship program. Now the benefit is having a 40 hour week if you want. Unlimited training access. Business agent to help you find work. Ability to vote for where your money goes on the check. Good insurance and pension, and alot of support from your local brothers.
I'll encourage you to study some union history. Mostly to see what unions have brought to American workers. Sorry for being long winded and hope it helps answer your question.
Vince
Ultralow787
- Ultralow787
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I certainly can't top what Otto and Vince have posted!
I happen to be a 32 year member of UA Local 787. I am also employed by the JTAC of this same local! (23 years in total, 6 of them full time)
When I left high school in the 70's, I went to work in a factory and was a member of the UAW/CAW. This was a totally different type of union in a shop where we built aircraft. I would have to agree with what you mentioned when it comes to that type of union. They went out of their way to protect incompetent drunks. I was also disillusioned with that aspect.
A "Trade" union is a totally different animal! The benefits are as already mentioned, but you stand on your own merits. If you don't cut it, you are out.
As also already mentioned, you have to decide what is right for you in your area. Just don't go into this with preconceived notions. Do your homework with an open mind and see what they have to offer. Good luck!
I happen to be a 32 year member of UA Local 787. I am also employed by the JTAC of this same local! (23 years in total, 6 of them full time)
When I left high school in the 70's, I went to work in a factory and was a member of the UAW/CAW. This was a totally different type of union in a shop where we built aircraft. I would have to agree with what you mentioned when it comes to that type of union. They went out of their way to protect incompetent drunks. I was also disillusioned with that aspect.
A "Trade" union is a totally different animal! The benefits are as already mentioned, but you stand on your own merits. If you don't cut it, you are out.
As also already mentioned, you have to decide what is right for you in your area. Just don't go into this with preconceived notions. Do your homework with an open mind and see what they have to offer. Good luck!
Perfection is impossible, but if you strive for perfection, excellence is obtainable!
1983 Canox "Sparkler" 225 AC Stick Welder
Hobart 210 MVP MIG Welder
Harris "Spitfire" Oxy-Acetylene Set
1983 Canox "Sparkler" 225 AC Stick Welder
Hobart 210 MVP MIG Welder
Harris "Spitfire" Oxy-Acetylene Set
jwmacawful
- jwmacawful
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if the only commodity I have to offer in the marketplace is my labor i'm going to make sure I get the highest price for it. my union makes sure each of it's members get the prevailing rate. this rate is negotiated between the union and a committee of employers. no employer or union member would dare give up the security of this protective group and go it on his own to attempt to hammer out a better deal for himself mainly because there's strength in numbers.
- Otto Nobedder
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Weldmonger
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Joined:Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
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JW,
I know several people who have dropped their unions over political infighting and favoritism.
Not every local works as it should, and some are rife with corruption. In a perfect world union would be the only way to go, but we don't live in a perfect world.
Steve S
I know several people who have dropped their unions over political infighting and favoritism.
Not every local works as it should, and some are rife with corruption. In a perfect world union would be the only way to go, but we don't live in a perfect world.
Steve S
jwmacawful
- jwmacawful
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all i can say to that is i don't have to sleep with my union brothers, just work with them. i'll leave the politics to the politicians.Otto Nobedder wrote:JW,
I know several people who have dropped their unions over political infighting and favoritism.
Not every local works as it should, and some are rife with corruption. In a perfect world union would be the only way to go, but we don't live in a perfect world.
Steve S