[Hoppy Toad]

I am interested in buying a welder for lighter gauge metals. I can weld but am not a professional welder. I am generally stick welding mild steel with one of my Lincoln SA-200 machines. I am wanting advice as to which type, brand and size MIG or TIG welder would be best for occasional thin metal work. I have never used either but I can Oxy-Acetylene weld. Any advice would be appreciated. I am not machine biased and have no preference as between Lincoln or Miller. I have 120 or 240 single phase available in my shop. I am a hobbyist and do not make my living welding so I will not likely be able to recoup the cost of the investment unless I were to sell the machine at a later date.

[Otto Nobedder]

Welcome. I've moved your question to "shop talk", where it'll get noticed, and get you more responses. The "instructions" forum is more of a "how to use this site" guide.

Steve S

[Hoppy Toad]

Thanks Mr. Nobedder. I'm just surprised that no real welders out there have an opinion.

[Otto Nobedder]

Be patient. This community works at a much slower neighborhood kind of pace than places like weldingweb. The benefit is that you'll get a reasoned answer from an informed person, rather than a flame from a smart-ass.

Steve S

[noddybrian]

Surprised nobody else has replied yet - so I'll go first - but to be honest it's a rather open ended question without knowing a little more about what you want to do with said welder - if you could give some more information it would help the other members give you better advise.

You're already stick welding - so we assume just carbon steel - in the thinner material is it still just steel or would stainless / aluminum be something you'd like to weld.

What sort of thickness would you want to do before using stick ? 3mm / 4mm / 5mm / 6mm and for what sort of length of run at a time as this will effect machine size needed & duty cycle.

As a hobbyist what sort of price range can you afford / justify ?

Is the welding you intend to do for looks / metal art / sculpture - just functional ( repair mower deck etc ) is it structural like making trailers ?

Is there an affordable supply of gas near you- for hobby stuff you could get away with CO2 ( very cheap & plentiful ) just to mig weld steel - but for aluminum or stainless mig they require their own shielding gases - whereas tig will cover all materials at a hobby level with 1 gas.

Without causing offense ( hopefully ) mig can be learned very quickly - just the basics of setting the machine picked up from watching video's & it's a point and shoot deal ( at hobby level I should add ) not much harder than using a caulk gun - but tig requires alot more learning - just how to set the machine as they have far more controls is a mission & then you need extremely steady hands / good hand eye skill ( both hands & 1foot usually ) & every aspect of it has less leeway than other processes - it's also quite slow & hard to tack things up compared with a mig which can be used one handed freeing the other to hold parts - now THE BIG ONE - we all watch Jody & others with hundreds maybe thousands of hours experience in tig making perfect welds look easy - IT'S NOT - takes time & practice - even a week break between sessions & your skill level suffers - some people never master it & although I tig weld where it's needed I do wonder why people want to use tig when it does'nt appear the best choice to do the job - it's in danger of becoming a welding fetish !

Now suppose you're undecided - there are multi process machines coming down in price that will mig weld nicely - can stick weld & also do lift arc tig - sadly not seen anything affordable with HF as well in this category - some will even plasma cut all off the same machine - takes a bit of changing over - but could be a good choice for some.

I'm sure I've only touched on some of the variables here - but fill in some of the blanks & your sure to start getting some advise - sadly though price is still going to be a big factor at the hobby level - it seems unlikely your going to be buying red or blue - but the import / badge of convenience stuff is getting better in quality & support all the time.

Sorry to ramble - hope some of it helps - all the best whatever you end up buying.

[Otto Nobedder]

Hoppytoad,

I'll throw this out there: If you can weld pretty well with O/A, you'll find the transition to TIG less difficult, and TIG will allow you to weld razor-blades and beer cans. There's still a learning curve, but your O/A experience puts you on two wheels on that curve, so to speak.

If your goal of "thin" is 16 ga., though, a MIG set up for .023 wire may serve you quite well. Hell, I see the guys on "The Powerblock" weld .024 HSS body panels with MIG, and three of those guys put together don't equal a weldor.

For TIG, those green machines Jody's reviewed (Everlast) are apparently a great machine for the price. I'm less certain where to point you on MIG.

noddybrian is right... more information about what you intend to do would help.

Steve S

[WerkSpace]

If your not welding aluminum,
Everlast makes a Mig, Tig and Stick machine.
http://www.everlastgenerators.com/mts-1 ... welder.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyWkNAa507w

[Hoppy Toad]

Thanks noddybrian, Otto Nobedder and WerkSpace for the responses,

I will attempt to be more focused on reasons to purchase and probable uses.

As stated before, I am a hobbyist, but have been welding for quite some time. I will be sixty (so much for real steady hands) in a few days and have welded off and on since I was 19 years old. I am located in Oklahoma and gases are plentiful with two distributors within 5 miles of my shop.

I grew up as a roughneck in the Oklahoma Oil fields where all the equipment is heavy, mostly made from carbon steel and everyone can weld it if it is thick enough. It was the manual labor of the oil fields which prompted me to become a geologist and engineer. Fortunately, I am at the point now where I am working at my hobby shop more and my vocation less.

In my shop, I like to refurbish small tractors such as the Ford 8N, Golden Jubilee and an occasional car. These are primarily personal projects (I would go broke trying to make money on these). Also, I am refurbishing a few Lincoln SA-200 pipeliners that I own and I keep a couple of Pipeliners for welding around the shop. I know they are not the most economical but I like to hear those old Continental engines run and they melt 6010 and 7018 like butter.

So much for background, now the more specific reasons for my question. Every now and then I have a project that requires welding for which the SA-200 Pipeliner is not suited. Repairing sheet metals is the most common project where I believe I could use a mig or tig welder. Also, while I do not weld aluminum, stainless or other exotic metals, I believe I would weld these materials if I had the equipment upon which to teach myself how to do so. I embark upon a personal engineering project once in a while where Aluminum or stainless would be the metal of choice if I had the capability to work with these metals.

Finally, money is not really an issue other than the fact that I do not want to throw money at a machine and pay for capabilities that I would never use. I hope that I made my question: Mig or Tig Welding machine more answerable and hope to get more feed back. I have actually looked at the Everlast machines and read the Jody review. The idea of plasma cutter is interesting and being able to weld a couple of beer cans together would be kind of cool.

[noddybrian]

OK - I'd like to say there is a single machine that does everything you dream of - & I believe it won't be long before we see true multi process machines that do indeed Tig AC / DC with HF - plasma cut - Mig - & stick all in one - but I've not seen one yet - so you will need to prioritize what you need.

I believe the process of choice if mainly repairing sheet metal of engine drive hoods & tractor parts in steel is firmly MIG - it's quick - easy to use - easy to tack up parts & relatively low heat input so does not create huge distortion.

There is a fascination people seem to have with Tig these days now the price of them has dropped to the hobbyist level - based on no particular need - it's almost a fetish - this now extends to trying to make Mig look like Tig - which I'm skeptical of except in non structural / cosmetic applications - ( I'm happy if you prove me wrong - but at it's worst the practice appears to be a series of overlapping cold spot welds - I would not trust in any critical loaded part. )

A plasma cutter makes perfect sense as a companion to this for your work - there are lot's of affordable units around - but I can't really advise you on any specific unit as equipment is very different on opposite sides of the pond and your local supplier is always the best place to start & he will usually be franchised to 1 or maybe 2 makes - my only advise on what not to buy is based on only 3units that friends have - but I have to say on their experience with the product / quality / dealer back-up - don't buy a red one !

Now if you went multi process a Mig / stick / DC only lift arc Tig is affordable - this would let you do stainless but not aluminum & lift arc is not the greatest to use - though alot of people will have done it - or started with this or even scratch start - another common combo machine is Tig / stick / plasma & here you can get AC / DC & HF in one unit at a fair price - but no Mig - so as I see it you need to decide if you can afford / justify the price & buy a multi process in one combination - then buy a single function machine to do the other stuff - if you are set on having all the options.

As a starting point is it possible to try Mig or Tig with a friends equipment or even take a class on it at any local educational place near you to help decide - as ( without offense if possible ) I question learning Tig & doing enough on a regular basis being practical at your age ( eyesight / fine motor skill etc ) - another option would be scratch start off your engine drive - never had a go with the old SA 200 - but we have a Ranger 305Dks pretty good - you could get a " stand alone " HF unit even with built in gas solonoid valve for it.

It may well be your fine with Tig as gas welding is a similar process - but I'd say an analogy would be a guy can buy a good digital camera & struggle to figure out anything but auto everything mode as he's unfamiliar with the basics of photography - a guy who used a manual focus / metered film camera should be able to pick up a digital quickly as he understands the fundamentals - BUT just the shear amount of controls on a top digital & the differing names used on some controls can make him struggle with something he thought would be instinctive - Tig is like that - plus aluminum magnifies any errors in machine setting or technique.

Hope some of this helps - and hopefully someone with more local knowledge of current machines may chime in on this one.
Last comment - why the 8n's - they always look like a sort of import copy of the little Massey 35 / 135 - whereas the "tall Major" / E27N is a real nice looking tractor - many fond memories of these & the first of the diesel " Super Majors "

So your not the guy on Utube with like one of every model year SA 200 in his backyard - starts them up in the snow & runs a huge rod on each in turn ?

[Hoppy Toad]

Noddybrian,

Your response makes a lot of sense and I think maybe a Mig + plasma cutter is the way for me to go. Do you have a suggestion as to which type of machine? I am leaning toward Miller for the Mig and maybe thermal arc for the plasma cutter.

And no, I am not the guy on you tube. As for tractors, I personally own a Massey Ferguson 1648 w/4WD for my tractor work around the shop. I do not have an affinity for Ford 8N it is just that there are millions of them around. Harry Ferguson forgot more about tractors than Henry Ford ever knew.

Also, I think you are probably right about the TIg (and I take no offense). While my motor skills are still pretty good and I am pretty healthy ( run 4 miles a day and weigh the same I did when I graduated high school 175 lb.) I would rather spend my time appreciating the nuances of a fine single malt scotch than how to correctly sharpen a cerium tungsten electrode for proper arc.

[noddybrian]

@ Happytoad.

The thing with the Tig is that even once mastered if you don't do it regularly enough while you won't forget how - somehow your welds just don't come out as nice as you know they could / should - it's very frustrating & when your doing the last weld on a job then it all comes together & it's perfect - trouble is that's the last bit needed & in a months time when you dust the machine off & need to use it the same thing happens ! ( unless your exceptionally gifted )

As to machines - like I say we are opposite sides of the pond - we both weld but few makes are available we can compare & model lineup is different - I think now you have had the chance to think through what is going to suit your use it would pay to start a new thread that will hopefully attract a better response on a single question like " my first Mig machine who recommends what " - so far as make goes I can't fault your choice in either - I did assume however as you stated it was purely hobbyist use that both of those makes were out of your likely budget - but both have an excellent track record & reputation for quality & back-up.

Migs I could name sold here will not help with your choice but Jody has reviewed a few & unless " money talks " behind the scenes ( and I doubt it does with him ) both he & a couple of other Utube welding uploaders are saying great things about Everlast - both in terms of product & after sales - sometimes a new player just tries harder than the established crowd because they have to - the newer inverter machines are lighter / smaller & have more features than the transformer based machines ( though these will usually last longer ) look for duty cycle - general build quality if you can look at a demo - try to get a demo & look at the wire feed - if it takes the larger spools they are always cheaper to buy - look for all metal wire drive - good size motor & gearbox - traction feed ( both rollers geared together ) will always feed better - 4 roller better yet - over here you'd want / expect euro torch fitting ( not sure about you guys ) to allow easy liner change and choice of torch ( Binzel is common here ) - make sure the supplied torch takes easy to source tips / shrouds.

Plasma - if you can run to a thermal-arc then they make fine cutters with long life consumables - but fairly pricey - there are alot of import machines will be fine for your expected use & while consumable life generally is not great they are real cheap direct on Ebay - my opinion is if you can afford a good make & support an American firm then great - over here there is no " native " brand to let loyalties cloud the issue - I saw the first of the " cut 40 " machines a while back - a local company bought a few to put on site service vans bought on price from an overly eager rep - they were derided initially - but with the exception of one that got tracked over by accident they are all still going strong ( though torches replaced ) - I spoke to the importer / Cut40.com guy here before getting one for occasional use when out working as the units are so portable & he did extensive testing on them & visited the factory - now I don't know if they all come from the same place or are equal in quality but he ran the heck out of them - loaded the electronics upto 5times their rated load & tortured the things & they took it all - so maybe if your thinking budget - buy the best Mig welder you can & save money on the plasma.

Just some thoughts - hope it helps - all the best whatever you decide.

[noddybrian]

@ happytoad

Had one last thought on Mig machines - mine are all " old school" transformer based- voltage is from 7 to 21 step according to machine size ( big clunky switch ) & wire speed is unmarked - so setting is purely on experience - if you buy a machine with digital readout of voltage / wire speed you can set a starting point setting very easily ( look it up for material / joint / wire size etc on the excellent Miller weld calculator ) without previous experience - then only slight trimming is needed according to preference / welding style .

[AnvilJack]

So, what did you buy?

If you haven't yet bought a welder, I want to echo the thought about "what is so fascinating about TIG?" You can weld down to 1mm (.040) with FCAW or GMAW. If you are, indeed, going to weld beer cans and whatnot, then, sure, TIG is the way. But if you are thicker than 1mm and somewhat rural (making outdoor stuff), think hard about whether TIG is the best option.

I have often considered decorative work using .8 mm and smaller sheet, and a small brake, roller, guillo unit, and for this I would pull out the TIG. I'm too busy with my garden fabrications right now, but the day will come.