Welding Tips and Tricks

Hi,

I have never welded before, but I'm an extreme DIYer. I am interested in welding up a frame work of 1.5" Stainless square tubing for a brewery. The frame will need to support 1000 lbs of boiling liquids so I don't want a failure.

What is the best process to use for this without breaking the bank? I have been researching this heavily and I see that TIG is best, but harder to learn and expensive. Would I be able to do it with an half decent MIG machine with gas shielding?


Thanks for your assistance!

Welcome to the forum. Are you sure you wouldn't be more comfortable finding an experienced weldor/fabber to do your project? I think you might be sticking your neck out a bit. I would say Mig would be a good choice but you will need to get experience in welding SS before you fab something to hold 1000#s of boiling liquid. Just my opinion.

I agree, this isn't the project to learn stainless, let alone how to weld. Depending on exactly what your welding stick, mig or TIG will work.

This is structural and not worth the liability or the risk of someone getting hurt. 1000lbs is no joke, I weld stainless in the food industry daily.

Where are you located?

Welcome aboard pmcint01

Do take heed from the others comments. No one wants to dampen your enthusiasm, but there's a lot to learn before you dive in the deep end. Small steps my friend. Stainless can be tricky with HAZ and cracks in the weld if not done exactly right.

Trev

Thanks for welcome and advice. What I was hoping to build was a single tier brewery stand. I attached a picture.

On the brewery forum there are loads of people who have built them as their first time welding. They usually need them to support a much smaller weight however. A lot of them are mild steel and people seem to be using MIG welds. There are a couple I've seen with MIG welds.

I have no problem practicing on scrap before I attempt to fabricate anything. I'm located in South Jersey.

If I did attempt this would there be any good way to test my work?

Thanks for your help.

There's a lot that can be done in the manner that you build your cart so it doesn't rely heavily on the welds. The one you have pictured is made with most of the welds being in compression and not tension, this is what you want. Over engineered so to speak. Add gussets to the corners and things like that. You can use tubing that fits inside each other so you're not relying on a butt weld.

Even bad welds can hold a surprising amount of weight if the cart is made right. 1000# of weight in a compression arrangement isn't a lot of weight. Triangles are your friend. Build the top and bottom with coped corners and this will put most of the welds in compression.

Whatever process you decide to go with will require quite a bit of practice though. Mig welding stainless is not as easy as welding mild steel, so I would suggest starting out with mild steel and when that's mastered move on to stainless if you choose Mig. It also likes a gas mix better than straight Argon, but I'll leave those suggestions to the guys who weld it regularly.

If you go the Tig route I say start your practice on scrap stainess of the same grade that you plan to make your cart from, 304 in this case. 308 or 308L rod would be my first choice of filler metal and of course you'll need straight Argon for shield gas.

If you're new to welding I would shy away from stick welding, stainless is fairly hard to master with stick even for competent welders let alone a beginner.

We can help you with the learning for whichever one you choose.

And, Welcome to the forum. A first name makes the replies a little more personal if you don't mind.

Len

Does it need to roll like the one you have pictured? I'd design it slightly different with your weight requirements.

The one issue I am struggling with is you said this is for a brewery, so is this being done for somebody (buisness) or are you fabbing this for yourself/buddy?

My gut says, cut all the metal, design and have it welded up by someone. Looking at the investment you will need to make in a welder, consumables, and gear it will not be cost effective unless you are planning on doing welding in the future.

I'm assuming that the 1.5" x 1.5" has a .120"-.125" wall so it the right hands it could be done with 308L stick welding and look beautiful. I'd personally TIG weld it just because all my structural certs are in tig, and it would not need any clean up when I'm done, except for some pickle and passivation.

This is going to be for a brewery that my brother in law and I are planning on opening. Right now we have a stand made out of wood and are working out of his garage. We hope to be in business in the spring in a commercial location. 1000 lbs of weight is really the worst case scenario. This would be when we have 3 - 55 gallon SS drums on it. One empty, one with 150lbs grain and 75 gallons of water between two barrels. This water is no hotter than 160 degrees. The boiler water would be no more than 45 gallons or 375 lbs. At this point in the process its more like 500 lbs of weight.

It would be nice if it could roll to make cleaning easier, but if it adds undue complexity we could do without it. I am not married to the design of the one in the picture. I just need it large enough to support the 3 drums on top and would like to have a bar go across the lower front to mount pumps to.

I've got a local quote for 2" Sq tubing 304 Stainless 11 ga. $350 for 60 feet. I think I only need 50. I got two quotes to have this built outright and both were over $1,000. One had a plate shelf on the bottom though so that added to the cost.

Being that we have DIY built everything for this brewery so far. This is the only cost effective way to open a brewery. I am positive that I would need to weld other things in the future and a welder would come in useful several times over. I was considering this Everlast welder: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0081BF4YC/ref ... EP2Y75S1Z3


Thanks for the amazing amount of advice you guys are offering.

Paul

When I read "brewery" and "stainless" I assumed you wanted to make sanitary welds for piping, which is a TIG application. Upon reading again and considering further, it occurs to me you'd >prefer< for this rack to be stainless, but it could be mild steel (since the rack you're working from now is wood).

If you consider using mild steel there are a number of "pros" and I think a smaller number of "cons". Mild steel is cheaper. You could use the MIG process, which is easier to learn- a shorter learning curve means you're more likely to meet your Spring deadline, and you and your brother are likely to be very busy during this time. You'd have to paint it (a "con") but in daily brewing operations, cleanup would be about the same, I'm thinking: a wash down with soapy water, just like with stainless.

Guys, check me on this one as it relates to MIG: Another reason to use mild steel is that stainless requires shielding gas on both sides of the weld: in your square tube application, you'd need shielding gas on the outside of the tube, and shielding gas or flux (called Solar B) on the inside of the tube. The coverage inside the tube is to prevent "sugaring", or oxidation of the weld. The requirement to back purge may be a complication you want to avoid, for the sake of the time investment.

Your first post asked about how to test a weld: first, practice practice practice. Watch all of Jody's videos on MIG, if you choose to go that way. One method of destructive testing is make a test weld on scrap material, then beat it a sledge hammer and try to break it. When you think you're far enough along, cut and etch a weld, like in this video
http://welding-tv.com/2014/06/03/tips-e ... -products/
...to make sure you're getting the required penetration. Then when you make your final product, load test it to make sure it bears the weight you need.

Forgot to add: good luck with your venture! We travel through South Jersey on the way to "da Joyzee Shaw"- we visit a town near Point Pleasant.

If you do mild steel and you want a pretty much bulletproof coating, I'd suggest powder coat.

I considered mild steel for cost and ease of welding, but we will be pulling the stainless drums on and off the frame work weekly for cleaning so obviously no paint would hold up. I wondered what powder coating might cost for something like this. Anyone have a quesstimate about what it might be?

Just to clarify. Welding pressure vessels and piping to hold 1000 of pounds of pressure is much different from welding stands to hold 1000# of weight. The first one, hire a pro with necessity certs/skill. Later can be done by DIY'er. But if you are going into business and YOUR welds fail and contribute to injury of an employee/customer .... then better you than me cuz lawyers are going to have a field day with that.

Have you considered trading beer for welding lessons from a local welder?

Just what we need, more drunken welders.

Len

I am a relitive noob to tig although I've been hobby welding for 28 years.
The thing I've found with it is it takes a fair bit of practice to get competent with it and you need to keep at it every week to maintain the required skill level.
Stainless brings with it a whole new dimension, cleaning, back purging or flux, speed and heat control. If you get all that right it looks fabulous and will be a strong weld. If you dont get it right you get what I usually end up with, a grey shonky looking weld, a few patched blow holes and an unwanted vocabulary increase of any juveniles within 50 meters.
On top of that you have the costs of the required equipment,protective clothing and gas.
Here gas is the biggest ongoing expense and practice uses a lot of it.
Well they are the negatives from a relative noobs point of view.
Positives,
Satisfaction of gaining a new skill and doing it yourself.
There is beer involved.
Regarding Jodies videos, he is an excellent teacher and really knows his trade, to the point he makes everything look easy and achievable, that happens when you have over 30 years experience of welding all day every day.
Starting out from scratch, well, you get the point, progress takes time.
Watch his videos, learn and have a go with some scrap, you may not get a handle the process in your time frame or you might.
Have fun with it.

Stainless steel does need a back purge in a lot of applications but I don't see this as being one of them. These are not sanitary welds as in process lines for food service. The only beer that comes in contact with these welds will be spilt. Sugaring on the inside of the square tubing here should have little ill effect. It's always better to purge as it offers the benefit of keeping oxidation at bay, but not always 100% necessary.

Just my opinion, I would weld these all day without a back purge.

Len

Braehill wrote:Just what we need, more drunken welders.

Len

I'll try not to take that personally...



Steve S

I'm not here to judge, just saying.

Len

Is gas real expensive there ? I just filled my 125 cuft bottle for about 40$

Poland308 wrote:Is gas real expensive there ? I just filled my 125 cuft bottle for about 40$

Ahh yeah it is.
My last E sized bottle argon (141 cuft) cost me $173 Aud.
Just dieing to hear what the next one will cost as I ran out this morning.
And the answer is $171 Aud. One more beer for me......

I watched Jody's videos and some from another guy on youtube. They sure do make it look so easy. I do know that it won't be.

Could you use the solar flux stuff to help with the back side sugaring? What size tank would you guys recommend for starting out so I'm not getting it filled constantly, but won't be too much of a hassle in my garage? There is LWS store in the next town over from me.

I think I could make a cart for the welder/tank as my first learning project. I'd love to give this a go as I like to learn new things and have become pretty proficient in home improvements with no training at all. Fully remodeled my kitchen last year, did everything except the final trim work. Didn't want to waste crown moulding. I did the electric, plumbing and gas lines even. You guys have really put a doubt in me that I would not be able to get a usable frame made up.

Thanks for the help.

Paul

Get at least an 80 cu ft bottle. The bigger a bottle you get the happier you will be. Don't panic when you see the price of your first bottle but get one based off of how much it's going to cost you to refill. If you make sure you shut off your bottle if you aren't going to use it and leak check your hoses even a small bottle will do a lot of welding. If you need to purge then consider a second bottle and flow meter.

Like others have said, no need to back purge the inside of the tubing frame....Since your doing brewery stuff, if your plans are to move on to the piping, then a back purge is required. Id suggest a dual flow meter at that point (I use Harris Model#356) and a larger bottle I use a 156lb bottle on my small cart that I tote around the building, otherwise we have the large 336 in the shop. FWIW- Solar flux isn't approved for use in a food application where it has direct contact.

Sanitary welding is a whole different story, you'll need a TIG, patience and some skill to pull it off correctly. If your plans involve your brewing turning into something larger, Id suggest getting a TIG set-up if your going to purchase a welder. Get lots of practice and shoot for learning how to do your own piping, the welding is the easy part, the fitting and cleanliness required is not. Sanitary welding and pipe/pipe fitting doesn't come cheap, and can take some time to do it right but will save you a TON if you can weld fittings into your own pots and run some basic piping.

There are a lot of good guys on this site from all walks of life and professions, we were not trying to discourage but just trying to keep you out from getting in trouble or getting hurt. Makes it a little easier when its for yourself, but you still need to plan it out correctly. A welding cart is a good first project, after you do a few pads of beads.

Paul,
What they said.
Run some beads, move on to lap joints and fillet welds. Start on something around 3mm
(1/8").
When you think your getting there give your welding trolly a go, it will teach you a lot and wont be very different from the brew stand you want to build.
You sound like a fairly skilled bloke, welding is just another skill to learn, the devils in the detail.
What the others issue is, is the weight your project has to hold and the fact it will be basically your first big project with what can be a tricky material for the new welder.
Dont be put off, give it a go.
Post photos of your first welds up, these guys will give you tips on what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong and how to improve.
As someone else has in his sig line, go melt something.
Have fun.