New to Forum, new to welding, farming on the east coast

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:31 am

Hello to folks here in the WTT forum. Hello, also, to Jody and the opportunity to thank him for all his good work.

I've been farming for something like thirty-, thirty-five years. Growing vegetables. I'm on a relatively small farm in Massachusetts (as compared to those of you in the mid-west and west who farm in the thousands of acres using huge dual-wheel, articulating tractors). We farm vegetables and small fruits, some apples, on 60 acres, plus about 26 leased acres. Small but it keeps all of us busier than we can manage well and easily. I'm mainly The Tractor Guy. The person who was doing welding is stepping away. We have a good welding shop five- or six-miles away. Now, I'm trying to learn to weld through the local voc-tech adult ed program. I'm really enjoying the welding and have LOTS to learn.

Jody's videos (and a number of other Youtube welders) are great, really helpful. Excellent way to learn, very clear. Jody seems to know what he's doing. The instructor at the voc-tech class is good, is willing to answer questions. And I've got access to a lot of machines.

I'm learning stick and MIG and look forward to learning TIG when I have the time. Initially, I'll be trying to fix anything that breaks around the farm (think large and small, thick and thin, all sorts of metal). Next winter, I'm hoping to try fabricating things . . . storage racks, welding carts, welding tables, and get into fabricating equipment we can use around the farm, most likely various types of field and in-row cultivators.

Right now, my biggest challenge is trying to figure out what's the best welder(s) to get. I'm learning all this stuff as fast as I can, but it doesn't feel fast enough. I keep coming back to something around 200 amps. MIG is suggested a lot. I really enjoy stick (was a maintenance helper at a summer camp waaaaayyyyy back when I was 16, and the real maintenance guy let me do a little stick welding . . . now I'm sentimental about stick welding!) and want to be able to do that. Which, I understand, makes sense around old, rusty equipment outside that you want to get fixed quick and get back to work.

I'm a bit confused right now. We have aluminum irrigation equipment . . . cast male/female fittings, 30' and 40' extruded alum pipes. I understand I can do that with a MIG spool gun. But I'm wondering if I should buy an AC/CD TIG machine. I can get an affordable 200 amp inverter Stick/TIG DC machine that will do lots of stuff . . . minus the aluminum. But I'm unsure about not being able to do Alum on the DC Stick/TIG. Someone told me aluminum is way hard to learn with TIG, so don't bother. Too many different types of alum that respond differently to temperatures. So, maybe I can get away with aluminum welding on the MIG. Or . . . maybe . . . I should spend the extra money (no small thing) on a good AC/DC stick/TIG machine and have that as something I can grow into.

I'd appreciate hearing from all sorts of welders, listen to your thoughts and suggestions. Including people who have experience on and around farm equipment. I want to make a decision soon and can certainly use the help. Thanks, Ward

Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:58 pm

Welcome, Ward,

That's a good honest analysis of the needs you see for a welder, and I could make a case for any of the machine options you listed. In my opinion, though, the single most versatile machine for your needs would be the AC/DC TIG, for the following reasons. A good one has stick capability, which, as you noted, is really usefull around rusty farm equipment for a fast turn-around. Stick is also the easiest way to repair cast iron (with nickel rod). You mentioned the need to weld "thin", and TIG will weld very thin stuff (as well as thick). You may have seen pics on the internet of razor blades or beer cans welded together. Most of those are real. Aluminum TIG is not so hard to learn. It behaves very different from steel, and some poeple do have trouble with the transition, especially if they've been welding steel for many years, but once you're "over the hump", I find aluminum is easy and fun to weld. One caveat; You'll want at least 250A for practical aluminum capability.

Additionally, you can add a "suitcase" MIG (make sure it's "constant current" compatible) that you can carry anywhere your stick-welding leads will reach.

All this assumes whatever you need to fix can be brought to the machine.

These capabilities can be had on an engine-driven machine should you need to take the welder to the work, but expect to be shocked at the price

On the other hand, just to get started, you can get a good used AC or AC/DC stick welder, and sell it when you're ready to upgrade. A Lincoln or Miller will hold it's value, and you can usually sell it for what you paid for it.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Steve S

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:36 pm

Hello Steve,

Thank you for the reply. Already, my brain's got more in it than when I wrote up my first post. Add a little at a time and I should get through this without my skull exploding. You've given me an option I didn't know anything about. I'll look into your suggestions, especially that MIG option with the AC/DC TIG/Stick. I've been thinking I'd need two separate, independent welders -- a MIG and a TIG/Stick. So, this sounds promising. (A Miller Multimatic has been suggested, though it didn't quite click with me. Seemed a new product and I wondered if the kinks were worked out. Seemed a little flimsy, but maybe that's just me. And I like the idea of separate machines, in case one goes down, I still have the other.)

I thought I was doing okay at around 200 amps, though you're suggesting I should consider up around 250. Being on the beginner side of things, I'm scratching my head at the higher amp recommendation. Naively, I'd have thought aluminum doesn't need a whole lot of heat, so I'll go off and try to understand what that's about. Thanks for your thoughts.

Oh, about bringing equipment to the shop. Yes, that's the way it's been. But that's just dumb luck. (Skip this if you don't like digressions: Not a welding job, but I was plowing away from the main farm and a front tire [4WD] sprung a leak. Calcium chloride ballast was shooting out with each revolution of the wheel. I just kept driving, watching the tire go flat, and made it back to the shop, stopping just as the rim hit the ground.) I'm sure something will fall apart when we're in one of the leased fields, four miles across town. It'll be time to call in a favor or two.

Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:51 pm

Ward, Aluminum requires lots of amps for two reasons.

First, aluminum conducts heat away from the weld very rapidly, requiring a lot of heat input to keep the weld area hot enough. This why you'll hear the word "preheat" often in discussions of aluminum welding, even with MIG.

Second, aluminum is welded on AC, so on a balanced weld (equal positive/negative cycles), the metal only sees the RMS value of the current, or 70.7% of your peak current.

[On the Millermatic, we have the MM252 at work, and abuse it quite a bit. It's been a fine machine so far, though the boss got the cheaper spool gun (as we don't to much MIG aluminum), and we all wish he'd got the better one...] Oops... you said "multimatic", and I'm not familiar with that one...

Steve S

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:24 pm

Hello again Steve, or anybody else who feels like chiming in . . .

I appreciate the explanation. I'll probably be asking a bunch of questions a chimp could answer. (Um, that didn't come out quite right.)

I've just been looking at suitcase wire feeders for MIG. I immediately like the build on them, seem tough. Also see pretty straight forward wire feeders (open roll, dial box for wire speed). So, I'm assuming these get power (somehow) from the TIG/Stick machine. Should I assume you have to have a close match between amps in TIG/Stick machine and Wire Feeder?

Here's another thing I'm trying to sort out with the TIG/Stick AC/DC 200 vs 250 . . . price jumps a lot. Looks like I could get a smaller inverter type in 200 amp range that can run off 115/120 and 220/230. That's appealing for being able to weld on smaller stuff in places that don't have the 220/230 option. I do hear you, Steve, about aluminum. Am I wrong to believe that if we did get stuck somewhere away from the shop, it's more likely I could find a regular generator to drive the welder at a 115/120 level? In an emergency-get-the-thing-back-to-the-shop situation, could I weld it enough at those lower amps to get it home?

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:36 pm

Also, regarding AC/DC TIG/Stick machines: Since I don't know much about TIG, I don't know how much I'd need the bells-and-whistles features . . . those pulse things, high freq starters, all those buttons on the front that aren't on the lower priced base models. Could I do 80%, 90% of the stuff those DX-type models do on a base model? Or would I feel like a dumb ass later for not having them?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:45 pm

I re-read your original post, and on reflection, if irrigation pipe is the heaviest aluminum you'll likely be welding, a 200A machine should be adequate, especially with some pre-heating of the weld area.

Somewhere on here is a good discussion on operating inverter welders on a generator.

I think this is it:
http://forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com/v ... f=5&t=3058

There were several opinions, and some good information with references, if I recall.

Usually, a suitcase welder is run with the power source "wide open" for machines under about 300A, and voltage/wire speed is set at the suitcase. Yes, they are powered by welder they are attached to; They have a small cround cable/clamp to complete the control power circuit at the workpiece.

Steve S

Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:54 pm

BTW, the activity picks up here in the evening (though we're rarely what I'd call "busy", which makes it much easier to get a question noticed), as many are at work, and I'm actually off today.

There's other peaks in activity, as we have members around the world who participate.

Steve S

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:25 pm

Thanks again Steve,

The aluminum I'll probably have to figure out on the run. (Maybe I can find a local welder, take a few alum pieces to him/her, and ask for amp recommendations.) The male and female ends are cast aluminum, so considerably bigger than the 30' and 40' 3" and 4" diameter extruded pipe. Both develop pin hole leaks. And naturally, we run over them. A big flail or rotary mower sure does a job. Wakes you up fast. When that happens, there's not much left to weld.

Also, we have a cast aluminum pump for a 30' boom sprayer sitting in the shop. The PTO shaft bottomed out going up (or down) a ditch, pushed up against the pump and broke a bolt right out of it. It would be nice to be able to build up a new lug and then tap it.

coldman · Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:36 pm

Hi Ward,
I have worked on plenty of Cattle Stations (what my brothers from the wrong side of the Pacific call ranches. I believe you also make sauces there.

).
They all have the following welding capabilities:

- one single phase buzz box stick welder that they can run off a genset and if the power output is a bit dirty, no problems bring it on. This power source is on the back of the pick-up and is used for running repairs such as the fence or the gate or the windmill pump. Also used in the workshop.

- In the workshop is a mig at least a 350. It tackles all the fabrication, repairs to earth moving machinery, blades etc. Also big enough for carbon arc gouging because surprise surprise, many failures are on welds that have not been done right in the first place and gouging can make repairs so much faster.

I have not seen any that do aluminium. The first two machines can be bought cheaply (the mig second hand). This may leave some room in the budget for a dx type 200amp ac/dc tig. The mig can do the big aluminium stuff anyway.

Food for thought.

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:15 pm

Dear coldman,

It is late, for me. I'll get back to you tomorrow. By then it will be yesterday where you live, wherever that international date line is. I'm guessing you are in Australia. One of my all-time best friends in this life lives there. Born, I believe, in Bendigo, now near Canberra with her husband. I haven't seen her in maybe thirty-five years. Thank you for your suggestions. Ward

Ward Cheney · Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:18 am

Last post.

I'm not too familiar with forums, so am learning as I go. Like welding. Since this section is for member introductions . . . well, I've introduced myself. I've also asked a lot of questions. And maybe the point is that I can ask questions and find answers elsewhere in the forum.

So, a couple or three things on this last post: One, I appreciate being here and am glad there is a wide range of people, beginners and all the way up. I appreciate people wanting to help each other out, and knowing a thing or two in the process.

Second, I'll finish with some open-ended questions and just plain areas of interest. Sort of the end of introducing myself, and if anyone has thoughts/suggestions to add, of course, be my guest.

Safety: I've been going over to a local guy's shop. He does small time fabrication and repair, and he's getting into blacksmithing. He's pretty concerned about safety and manages to spike conversations with examples of blood, death, and general mayhem. So far I've heard about (only a small sample) an oxyacetylene tank blowing up and killing a guy (somehow some mayonnaise from his sandwich got into the threads of one of his regulators). Him welding in his shop and sparks landing on something, rags or sawdust or shavings, starting a fire, and not noticing because he's in his helmet and concentrating on the weld. He said he barely held it together, grabbed a fire extinguisher, and was surprised when the fire went out. And the third one, he cautioned me about clothing, about wearing gloves around bandsaws, drill presses, angle grinders. Some poor guy got a glove caught in a drill press, wrapped his hand around backwards, split it open to the bone, and took a finger. I have to keep reminding myself I'm getting to be a old guy and that I'm just not as quick and sharp as I never was.

Understanding Electricity. I graduated something like second or third from the bottom of my high school class. I did not take physics. I do not understand what electricity is and how it moves through a solid wire. I don't know what AC and DC are. I don't understand what CC and CV are. I don't know why some welders come with just a wire, no plug, and whether or not I can hook up that cord in a way that it will plug into both 115/120 plugs and 220/230 (or whatever combination of numbers they are). I am still trying to figure out if I go with a 200 or 280 TIG/Stick AC/DC inverter machine will I have enough power to run a suitcase wire feeder or do I need to (can) go with one of those small box wire feeders with the exposed spool holders. Or forget that and go with a portable MIG machine around 200-210 amps.

Engine Driven Welder-Generators. I want to drive around with one of those in the bed of my truck.

Money. Welding can get expensive fast. How do I talk myself, and more importantly my wife, into spending a chunk of dough on machines and equipment and doo rags?

That's it.

Thanks for letting me introduce myself and eat up all the snacks and drink all the beer.

Mike · Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:52 am

Welcome to the forum Ward.

AKweldshop · Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:50 pm

welcome to the forum Ward

Antorcha · Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:41 am

The problem with welding forums is they are full of welding junkies.Guys with 8 machines crammed into a one car garage 2 blocks from Walmart. The only thing the majority know about farming is that it is in fact the initial source for the bacon cheeseburgers and the grain for the beer in the fridge.

.

Unless you're a dairy man you dont NEED a tig.Even if you ARE a dairy man a respectable repair-build can be done with a min-MIG and tri-gas for stainless.
They're cheap and effective both on the workbench or portable scenario.Big bottle in the shop. Little bottle for the truck. You can tack up heavy projects with ease and accuracy and do the final welding with the stick.
Don't listen to the noise about C25 gas unless you want to build something super visually appealing like a coffee table or a fancy tool box etc.You'd be using cold rolled there anyway( I hope).

The plain old CO2 is cheap, easy to get and works well once you're used to your welder.It's all anyone used in the old daze but laziness and the fantasy of speed is better made the mixes the hula-hoop of the day.
Weld it, toss it on the primer rack and never pull the grinder out again ! It's a miracle !! Surgically clean !!! ....to soon be covered by drywall, buried in concrete, wrapped in brick veneer or have farm mud all over it anyway

Ironically I used C25 exclusively from the mid eighties all the way up to last week, as have most guys.I was the Head Byatch ranting about the EVUL of CO2 welding ! Like a reformed drunk or smoker or a guy who found Geezuss on an English Muffin !
The other day I ran out and needed gas NOW. I grabbed a tank of CO2(byatching the whole time), an adapter, and headed home expecting uber frushtration.
Sheeeeeee. Wacked a lil off the nozzle, ran the pressure up to 20 and let it eat. No problem.

From now on the C25 will be reserved for thin sheet metal/body work. I'd completely forgotten that it wasn't really bad at all. A few BB'z here and there easily remedied with some anti spatter spray or just a quick lick with an angle grinder.Learn to set the machine up correctly.

Farm equipment rarely breaks down next to the toolbox inside the barn. It's out in the shit with the wind howling,rain, tree crashes gate/fence/roof/trailer/hurricane/earthquake/volcanic eruption/fat woman on Vespa crash.
Anyhoo..... don't buy 250 plus cla$$ MIG welders to repair shovels,build a trailer once a decade or gusset a 3 point.Get yourself a good AC/DC stick machine and put your money into rods, grinding equipment and a set of torches.Hell , just get an AC 225. $1 an amp !.Get an Oxy-propane set if acetylene stories plague you. It's cheaper and it's very likely you wont ever be doing any torch welding.I do weld with Oxy-acet.Often. It's my "TIG"
Odds are you WILL be bending-unbending

and cutting fairly often.Cutting up stolen tractor trailers for steel inventory. It rocks for lighting the BBQ too!
A) Stick welder
B) Torches
C) Transportable MIG (the ultimate is a Lincoln 180 dual). The 115 V are more practical since you already have a stick.
I didn't say flux core. That's garbage for guys who don't have a stick machine just as spool guns are garbage for a guy with no AC TIG rig.

Take all the money you saved and get all the other goodies. Grinders, band saw, drill press,screw gun, compressor, good vice,.... Galil assault rifle w/10,000 rounds

all the everyday stuff a farm needs.

Well. The guys are here ( milk time). Gotta go have a sit down, wipe my opinion and head down the mountain.

Ward Cheney · Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:44 pm

More later . . . a full day ahead of me . . . thanks for the suggestions and general social commentary.

Before I leave, you'll need to clarify something for me, 'cause I'm kind of worried about you. You wrote, "Well. The guys are here ( milk time) . . ." When it comes to cows and milk, has anyone told you you should be milking the females, not the males? If the cows are always in a bad mood or you haven't been making any money, that could be the reason.

Back later. Enjoyed your six cents-worth.

AKweldshop · Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:46 am

Antorcha wrote:The problem with welding forums is they are full of welding junkies.Guys with 8 machines crammed into a one car garage 2 blocks from Walmart. The only thing the majority know about farming is that it is in fact the initial source for the bacon cheeseburgers and the grain for the beer in the fridge. .

Unless you're a dairy man you dont NEED a tig.Even if you ARE a dairy man a respectable repair-build can be done with a min-MIG and tri-gas for stainless.
They're cheap and effective both on the workbench or portable scenario.Big bottle in the shop. Little bottle for the truck. You can tack up heavy projects with ease and accuracy and do the final welding with the stick.
Don't listen to the noise about C25 gas unless you want to build something super visually appealing like a coffee table or a fancy tool box etc.You'd be using cold rolled there anyway( I hope).

The plain old CO2 is cheap, easy to get and works well once you're used to your welder.It's all anyone used in the old daze but laziness and the fantasy of speed is better made the mixes the hula-hoop of the day.
Weld it, toss it on the primer rack and never pull the grinder out again ! It's a miracle !! Surgically clean !!! ....to soon be covered by drywall, buried in concrete, wrapped in brick veneer or have farm mud all over it anyway

Ironically I used C25 exclusively from the mid eighties all the way up to last week, as have most guys.I was the Head Byatch ranting about the EVUL of CO2 welding ! Like a reformed drunk or smoker or a guy who found Geezuss on an English Muffin !
The other day I ran out and needed gas NOW. I grabbed a tank of CO2(byatching the whole time), an adapter, and headed home expecting uber frushtration.
Sheeeeeee. Wacked a lil off the nozzle, ran the pressure up to 20 and let it eat. No problem.

From now on the C25 will be reserved for thin sheet metal/body work. I'd completely forgotten that it wasn't really bad at all. A few BB'z here and there easily remedied with some anti spatter spray or just a quick lick with an angle grinder.Learn to set the machine up correctly.

Farm equipment rarely breaks down next to the toolbox inside the barn. It's out in the shit with the wind howling,rain, tree crashes gate/fence/roof/trailer/hurricane/earthquake/volcanic eruption/fat woman on Vespa crash.
Anyhoo..... don't buy 250 plus cla$$ MIG welders to repair shovels,build a trailer once a decade or gusset a 3 point.Get yourself a good AC/DC stick machine and put your money into rods, grinding equipment and a set of torches.Hell , just get an AC 225. $1 an amp !.Get an Oxy-propane set if acetylene stories plague you. It's cheaper and it's very likely you wont ever be doing any torch welding.I do weld with Oxy-acet.Often. It's my "TIG"
Odds are you WILL be bending-unbending and cutting fairly often.Cutting up stolen tractor trailers for steel inventory. It rocks for lighting the BBQ too!
A) Stick welder
B) Torches
C) Transportable MIG (the ultimate is a Lincoln 180 dual). The 115 V are more practical since you already have a stick.
I didn't say flux core. That's garbage for guys who don't have a stick machine just as spool guns are garbage for a guy with no AC TIG rig.

Take all the money you saved and get all the other goodies. Grinders, band saw, drill press,screw gun, compressor, good vice,.... Galil assault rifle w/10,000 rounds all the everyday stuff a farm needs.

Well. The guys are here ( milk time). Gotta go have a sit down, wipe my opinion and head down the mountain.

hey Ward, If your not welding much or any aluminum, Antorcha is correct,
a stick welder 220v for the shop, gas driven for the field and a 110v mig to go back and forth.
I've been doing farm repair for the last 5 years, and that's exactly what I have....
John

ps. check my profile

AKweldshop · Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:51 am

Antorcha wrote: Hell , just get an AC 225. $1 an amp !

Antorcha, I must correct you. 50 cents an amp

Ward Cheney · Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:26 am

Hello John, also Antorcha (since I said I'd be back),

John, I'll go check your profile. I'm still going back and forth and trying to figure it out. Have tied myself in knots more than once. "I'll get A, yep, that's what I'll do. But what about B, it'll do C, which A can''t do? Then there's D, which also does B and C. But model E is a better buy but not as many amps as F. What about G?, it has a better duty cycle and . . . . "

Good to know you two fix things in similar ways.

There's a lot of good discussion in the forum, and I'm trying to mine that.

Thanks. Knowing how members weld who weld farm stuff is really helpful. Scale makes a huge difference. I was back in Colorado (I grew up on the plains there) two years ago and went further east to meet a farmer. 60,000 acres of dry-land wheat and sorghum, with cattle in the mix. 60,000 acres! Growing vegetables on forty of a hundred acres is work enough for us.

AKweldshop · Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:50 pm

my profile lists the 3 welders I have
Everlast 160 sth, lincoln ranger 8 gas, and a hobart 135 mig

AKweldshop · Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:02 pm

I hope we didn't run you off Ward.
There's lots of opinion's when it comes to which welder for which job, that's for sure.

It just take's some time to sort it all out.
Like, what thickness of metal welded, how long are you welding, what materials, what position, what portability? etc etc.
Hang with us,
~John

Ward Cheney · Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:14 pm

Hey John,

Thanks for checking in. I'm doing fine and wasn't run off. I feel right at home here, the same way I've felt since I started welding. My people (give and take).

Like a big meal, I've got to take time to digest. You're right, lots of variables. I end up having to stop taking in information for a while, see what floats to the top.

Ward

Superiorwelding · Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:21 pm

Ward,
Not to add to your confusion but I have read your and the others posts and think that the Thermal Arc Fabricator (now Tweco) 252i might be a good solution. It is not AC but if would give you plenty of power for all your DC applications. I have demoed this machine and over all It would make a great hobbyist/farm welder. If you would like have the AC for sure that maybe the Thermal Arc 186 AC/DC machine. It does not include the MIG process but is TIG and Stick. The main reason I would recommend these machines is if you can get the Thermal Arc branded machine instead of the Tweco you will get a smoking deal now as they are trying to get these off their shelves.
If you do go with a engine driven welder, again considering your needs I would recommend a Miller Bobcat 225 or 250. They are cheaper and are AC compatible.

Well I added to the confusion

Ward Cheney · Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:08 pm

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I'll take a look at those machines. I do feel I'm getting a better understanding of what's out there and what's needed. I've got some more time to think about what makes sense, given my situation.