Welding Tips and Tricks

Greetings,

I am 45 and living Morrisville, VT, and I have aspirations of becoming a gunsmith and metal working hobbyist. I have taken a welding course at my local technical center, and mostly have done stick welding since, badly, and a little gas welding.

My gunsmith has mentored me on a few projects and builds, and I think I am ready to step it up a little. I have acquired a lathe and will be learning to make screws, and other parts, but I also think I need to learn and practice TIG welding, especially to complete the next project gun I am building.

I snapped up a broken 1874 - 1880 Remington Rolling Block No. 2 from my local arms dealer, and am very excited as it is hard to come across one for a good price. On this one, the mechanicals are sound, but the receiver tangs had been cracked off at some point. A previous amateur gunsmith had started to weld them back on, but did it pretty badly and never finished.



I would like a mentor to guide me into being able to repair the above receiver with TIG welding. Eventually, I will be annealing, polishing and case hardening it as well, and rebuilding the gun into a shootable black powder rifle. But first, I have to get the receiver back together. As you can see, the lower tang was beveled for welding, tacked across the bottom, but not finished. The upper tang is similarly poorly welded, and I know I am going to have to undo the previous works, get back to clean metal, and fix it.

Besides the Roller, I also have two small part welding projects I would like to get good enough to complete. One is to TIG in the butchered cap screw slot on an 1898 S&W Revolver so that it can be turned and a new slot cut, then polished and re-plated. This is one part that I haven't been able to find. I'll either have to fix it this way, or try to make a new one on the lathe. I'd like to give this a shot.



Finally, and probably hardest, I want to be able to TIG build up metal onto the end of a very small screw. This is the extractor retaining screw on a Rolling Block No. 1.



The tip was worn down and doesn't hold the extractor in as it used to. If I can add 2 to 3 mm of material to the end, I think that would be some pretty meticulous TIG welding! At least for an amateur. I can always buy a new screw, but I figured this would be an excellent final exam as I learn to use a TIG. And, it will serve me well later if I have to fix cracked or broken sears.

Some questions would like help with are:

1) What is a hobbyist level welder that has enough control to do this type of small part welding. Is the Miller 150 type good enough?

2) The receiver is a weaker steel that will need to be case hardened later, as opposed to the modern, stronger steel used in smokeless power guns. I don't know the nomenclature for the steel, but what kind of filler rod would be used in welds that would have to be annealed then case hardened later?

3) For build up welding, which I will also have to do on parts of the receiver that were carelessly ground away, is there a type of filler rod that is better for working afterwards with a file or mill?

4) Once I figure out what kind of welding rig to get and setup, is there anyone who would like to mentor and advise me through practice drills etc to be able to get to these project goals?

Thanks, and it's nice to find this place. I have already seen some amazing information posted here, including the Utube videos and the Expensive Welding Knowledge videos. I know I will not get to that level of knowledge, since I really won't be doing this as a profession, but I hope to be able to get good enough to do the projects I want to do myself, rather that have to pay someone to do it.

Jack,
Welcome to the forum.

Everything you asked about can be done. I'll leave the particulars to those with experience in gun work.

Welder selection is going to get you as many opinions as there are members here. You can do most anything you want to do on a gun with a 150 amp DC only tig welder so they fall on the low end of the price range. Most of the better inverter welders can go down to about 5 amps for very precise work. The Miller welder will cost you more than double what you can spend on the high end Chinese welders in the 150 amp range. Some of the import welders are getting good reviews and a decent following.

We have members in VT, but I not sure how close they are to you or their willingness to mentor someone. They'll chime in if this is something they would do.

As a group, we can answer just about any question you might have as you progress in your learning, but there's nothing like having firsthand tutoring from someone with experience. Don't let not finding someone local to help you keep you from giving this a go. You'd be surprised how many folks here have turned into decent hobby welders just from watching the videos and asking questions here. We treat new welders and their questions with respect and you'll never get beat over the head for asking questions here.

Do some research on welders that fall into the dollar amount that you can comfortably afford as there will be quite a bit of cost over this amount for all the ancillary stuff that goes along with it. Foot pedal, Argon cylinder, welding helmet, gloves, tungsten, filler rod just to name a few. It adds up.

Len

welcome aboard
you have a very interesting project that
touches many aspects.
please post photos and info as you
procede.
craig

You may fight with tiging the old metal. I've welded on steel pipes in building that were built in the 1800s and sometimes there are a lot of impurities in the metal. You may have to weld and grind it out several times.

Thanks, I will post lots of pics and questions as I go.

I wouldn't bother welding the last two pieces. Just make new ones.

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Welcome to the forum Jack.

xryan wrote:I wouldn't bother welding the last two pieces. Just make new ones.

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I disagree.

Since, in these cases, new ones can readily be made, this is excellent practice for similar parts that would, on replacement, degrade the value of the firearm. It's also excellent practice for irreplaceable parts. I would think replacing those tangs in the first image with newly machine-made parts would seriously devalue the weapon, where as a properly done repair will restore much of the gun's value.

Steve S

I too am in VT. I'm near route 7 south of Rutland. My experience in welding gun parts is very limited. I'm game for anything. I'd be happy to give you an opportunity to try out my Dynasty 280DX. It's more welder than you'll need for little parts, but one thing I like about it is it goes so .
low

I wonder if you or I would be successful in heat treat after the weld?

I believe I own the twin to that S & W hammerless revolver. Mine is 38, I don't know its age. My father bought it old in 1938.

Otto Nobedder wrote:

xryan wrote:I wouldn't bother welding the last two pieces. Just make new ones.

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I disagree.

Since, in these cases, new ones can readily be made, this is excellent practice for similar parts that would, on replacement, degrade the value of the firearm. It's also excellent practice for irreplaceable parts. I would think replacing those tangs in the first image with newly machine-made parts would seriously devalue the weapon, where as a properly done repair will restore much of the gun's value.

Steve S

Thanks - First, I don't own any firearms that have intrinsic value. I try to only by broken or ruined guns and restore them with a clear conscience.. Second, I like the journey not the destination, if you know what I mean.

Bill Beauregard wrote:I too am in VT. I'm near route 7 south of Rutland. My experience in welding gun parts is very limited. I'm game for anything. I'd be happy to give you an opportunity to try out my Dynasty 280DX. It's more welder than you'll need for little parts, but one thing I like about it is it goes so .
low

I wonder if you or I would be successful in heat treat after the weld?

I believe I own the twin to that S & W hammerless revolver. Mine is 38, I don't know its age. My father bought it old in 1938.

Bill! Thank you! I would definitely want to come down for a demo and a trial! I'll PM you my contact info to save and we can set it up some time later in the fall.

Heat treat so far as tempering, I don't think would be reliable after welding, but a spring and chassis guy might know for sure. As far as case hardening, as long as the weld filler is similar to the product or made of a steel that is case hardening capable, I don't see why it wouldn't. I imagine the colors would definitely reflect the course of the weld.

I know that some modern firearms receivers can be welded back to functionality, I have even seen WWI Beretta sub-machine guns whose receivers were "destroyed" by breaking into three pieces welded back to function, but that is an intrinsically stronger steel.

I my gun was cracked on the receiver sides, I wouldn't bother, but since its a matter of just fixing the tangs, I am not to worried.

I look forward to meeting you some time and thanks again!

If you feel up to a project, my 38 hammerless was the first gun my father ever owned. I've never fired it, the cylinder is a bit loose so I'm not sure of it.

I've got a filler for high carbon steel. It was quite expensive per LB but it'd take very little for any firearm project. It lays down like butter.

Bill Beauregard wrote:If you feel up to a project, my 38 hammerless was the first gun my father ever owned. I've never fired it, the cylinder is a bit loose so I'm not sure of it.

I've got a filler for high carbon steel. It was quite expensive per LB but it'd take very little for any firearm project. It lays down like butter.

I'll take a look for sure. I bought mine at auction for $25. It was in as-is condition and frozen up. I had to replace some springs and even had to make one.

I seem to recall high carbon filler is not good for fire arms, that you are supposed to use mild steel. Modern guns can be welded with 4140 but that doesn't case harden. That is the sum total of all I know about it.

Is you S&W hammer less or with a hammer? Mine is a hammer less lemon squeezer.

It's a hammerless 38 break action 5 shot 4" barrel 157751 on butt. The ridge at top of barrel gives numerous patent dates C1880. I tried to look it up in a gun book, but had trouble identifying it.

I have no experience in welding small parts like this, but according to Jody, make sure your electrode is needle sharp and shiny, like belt linisher shiny. He put his in a cordless drill and sanded it.

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weldin mike 27 wrote:I have no experience in welding small parts like this, but according to Jody, make sure your electrode is needle sharp and shiny, like belt linisher shiny. He put his in a cordless drill and sanded it.

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Thanks' I'll try it.

The smoother/sharper it is, the cleaner the arc starts and "flows

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Sounds like neutering dust mites, you need good cheater lenses.

Bill Beauregard wrote:It's a hammerless 38 break action 5 shot 4" barrel 157751 on butt. The ridge at top of barrel gives numerous patent dates C1880. I tried to look it up in a gun book, but had trouble identifying it.

Sounds like a second model S&W safety hammer less. Mine is a 3rd model, whose sn start from 167,000

For it has a back strap safety that depressed when you grip it, that is for sure what it is. Here is a link to the parts diagram at numrich parts Corp.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufactur ... -38377.htm

Here is the Wikipedia page

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_% ... Hammerless

If yours is in fact a second model, it was made prior to 1898. It can be fired if the cylinder timing is right, but almost no one makes the right ammo. You'd be better off loading your own with black powder as I do. However, you will almost certainly break the springs if they are original, as I did. Only two of the three springs are usually available. The third you have to make.

Although, since you have high carbon rod, you could weld grind, anneal and retemper them, I suppose.

Can hand bevel 200mm plate and tig weld the leg of a flea.

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Hello Fatjackdurham,

Back to your original questions... 150 amps would be sufficient unless you are welding field artillery. One feature you might want to consider would be pulse. I have found it to be handy for doing buildup on small parts without melting them into a blob. In fact I just repaired a couple of "Glock sears" for a local shop. Not like any Glock parts I had ever seen. Something which went into an extension off the back of the slide. I can guess what the purpose was - and the fellow is a licensed Class 3 manufacturer - but I did not ask. I built up the metal where he needed and he turned down a piece of aluminum for me to make a drilling guide for a project I was working on. But I digress.

If you look through Jody's videos on-line or better yet purchase a couple of the collections, he shows a number of examples where pulse will provide the additional control to handle situations where too much heat will ruin the weld but enough heat is needed to form the puddle. I upgraded my Miller Diversion 165 to a Dynasty 200 DX a few years ago. A good welder is an investment, a cheap welder is a cheap welder. If you do not want AC (for aluminum) Miller's Maxstar series has a DX unit with pulse although I am not sure if it is available in the 150 amp size. Their web site is currently undergoing maintenance so I cannot look at their offerings.

As to filer rod... ER70S2 or S6 mild steel rod should work fine. The key thing is size. Straight lengths of rod are typically no smaller than .040". For the above mentioned sears I found that to be too big so I straightened out some .030" ER70S6 MIG wire. It worked fine.

When you have a situation with base metal of unknown parentage and composition you may find that 309 or 312 stainless filler will produce a good weld. Be advised that you will not be able to blue, parkerize or otherwise color the weld.

As to heat treating... Jody has recommended a book "Metals and how to weld them" by the JF Lincoln Welding Foundation. It can be had from that organization on-line http://www.jflfoundation.com/SearchResu ... +weld+them (I had picked up my copy at a flea market for $5 many years ago). I can not put my hands on my copy at the moment but I recall that it talked about heat treatment and I think had an example of how to properly sharpen and heat treat a cold chisel. Need to do that some day.

Welcome to the welding world and enjoy. I am about to have round two with some Kydex which I am trying to shape into a moon clip holder to go with my S&W J frame. Aggravating stuff unless you have 6 or 7 hands.

Ken

Fatjackdurham wrote:

Bill Beauregard wrote:It's a hammerless 38 break action 5 shot 4" barrel 157751 on butt. The ridge at top of barrel gives numerous patent dates C1880. I tried to look it up in a gun book, but had trouble identifying it.

Sounds like a second model S&W safety hammer less. Mine is a 3rd model, whose sn start from 167,000

For it has a back strap safety that depressed when you grip it, that is for sure what it is. Here is a link to the parts diagram at numrich parts Corp.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufactur ... -38377.htm

Here is the Wikipedia page

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_% ... Hammerless

If yours is in fact a second model, it was made prior to 1898. It can be fired if the cylinder timing is right, but almost no one makes the right ammo. You'd be better off loading your own with black powder as I do. However, you will almost certainly break the springs if they are original, as I did. Only two of the three springs are usually available. The third you have to make.

Although, since you have high carbon rod, you could weld grind, anneal and retemper them, I suppose.

Thank you. It has always been a curiosity. Something I wasn't allowed to touch as a kid. I've never understood the purpose of such a weapon. Accuracy must have been terrible. The squeeze to cock mechanism was a contributor, and the grip is so small, I can only fit one finger on it. I'll put it back in the safe for the next generation to wonder about. I've never been a big fan of revolvers for practical use. Although I own a few, the idea of a loaded gun with hammer over cartridge bothers me. A semi auto can be left with none in the chamber until preparing to fire. It seems safer to me.

taylorkh wrote:Hello Fatjackdurham,

Back to your original questions... 150 amps would be sufficient unless you are welding field artillery. One feature you might want to consider would be pulse. I have found it to be handy for doing buildup on small parts without melting them into a blob. In fact I just repaired a couple of "Glock sears" for a local shop. Not like any Glock parts I had ever seen. Something
As to heat treating... has recommended a book "Metals and how to weld them" by the JF Lincoln Welding Foundation. It can be had from that organization on-line http://www.jflfoundation.com/SearchResu ... +weld+them (I had picked up my copy at a flea market for $5 many years ago). I can not put my hands on my copy at the moment but I recall that it talked about heat treatment and I think had an example of how to properly sharpen and heat treat a cold chisel.
Ken

Wow and thanks! I wasn't sure if pulse welding could only be done on aluminum or not.....

Obviously you are some one I will ask questions of later, I am sure.

Who is Jody?

Alright, I am close to getting a Lincoln inverted 160 T for about 850 used, including a new pedal. They list at $1500 new and can go down to 5 amps. So, I think based on what I have read around here this would be a decent buy if it checks out?

Jack,
Jody Collier is the founder of this forum and is the one who does all the videos. Click on the video button at the top of the page and pick a video on tig welding. This forum is an offshoot of his YouTube channel, Welding Tips and Tricks .com. Check him out, he's a great guy and great teacher.

Len