[timothymass]

Hello everyone tim here ive been working in production based in mig welding aluminum, stainless, and mild steel for a couple years now. We build industrial fans and I weld the wheels I just bought a shopmate 300 dx which im thouroughly enjoying learning stick welding a good friend at work has been to school for pipe welding. What I am wondering is it completely necessary for me to go to a trade school to get certified pipe welding to get an over the road job I dont claim to be perfect or know everything but I am really good at picking things up with minimal training. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated thanks all

[Braehill]

Tim,
I believe that going to a trade school has never hurt anybody that I know of. Is it 100% required, no. Some employers may look for that on your application. It might be what gets you to the testing portion of the interview over the guy without it. Trade school doesn't promise you that you'll pass the test when you get to the potential employer's doorstep. Any employer worth their salt is going to test you on their procedure before they send you out welding on the pipeline and you'll probably have to test out when you get there too.

Some schools have placement opportunities that are not readily available to welders who haven't taken classes. Employers trust them to provide a quality product (you) that they can count on and they'll go there to find it. That fact in itself is sometimes worth the investment of time and money it takes to go through the course. My company hires most of it's people for in the field with former military training, why, their track record. Do they always get the best person for the job, no but they like the odds.

Your asking a hard question that really can only be answered by you. Are you willing to trade the time it takes and the effort to learn the skills to up your chances at the job you want.

Len

[WTFH]

Should you decide to attend school you should thoroughly check out the school. Talk to current and former students if possible, get background information on the instructors. Ask to sit in on a class and view the work of students that the school considers to be of good quality. Far to many institutions that teach welding have acceptance standards that are in the toilet and while you will be getting booth time which is good having someone misleading you by telling you your doing great because they have low acceptance standards can do you more harm than good.

John

[timothymass]

Thanks so much for your guys input i have an appointment at midwest technical institute to see what they have to offer. I would consider myself to be fairly sufficient at mig welding i attached a pic of some stainless i migged. I have a good eye for decifering an acceptable weld and bad weld. I know its kind of an unanswerable question without you guys seeing me weld im just gathering as much info as i can to try to make the best decision possible. Has anyone been to or know anyone whose attended mti?

[timothymass]

does anyone have any questions one should ask the advisor at the technical institute that I might not think of it would be appreciated?

[Otto Nobedder]

does anyone have any questions one should ask the advisor at the technical institute that I might not think of it would be appreciated?

I would ask about their job placement program... Ask for a list of companies they've successfully placed graduates with, with statistics. Then look at those companies. See if the companies they refer graduates to actually do work you want to do, at what skill level, and what potential for advancement/further education.

Your MIG skills will already get you a job in a fab shop on a visual alone, but without opportunity, it's a bit like assembly line work. The fact you're interested in education tells me that's not the kind of career you want.

Steve S

[WTFH]

Like I said acceptance criteria in the toilet. Here is an example of a student who was allowed to proceed to a more complicated task than he could handle. As you can see from the picture this poor guy has no clue how to run a 7018 uphill and more than likely had similar results even in the flat position. My guess, well I know, that throughout his training he never gained any mastery what so ever. BTW I’m pretty sure these were test plates, so this guy was considered skilled enough to test out?
As I said what do the school/instructors find acceptable and don’t be fooled by them spewing code crap, AWS this ASME that. See for yourself what they consider acceptable, it will speak volumes for the type of training your will receive.
John

[Boomer63]

Lots of good answers here. I would recommend sitting in on a few class sessions. Come prepared with all your PPE and safety glasses.

Here is the thing about a tech school. I teach at one. The program is about way more than just learning to weld. A good program should be about professionalism; teaching professionalism and maintaining professional industry standards. I constantly embed lay out and fit up problems in to what the students are learning. I incorporate practices like requiring that weld coupons be cut a certain size, fit up a certain way and to certain standards. In just doing that, they are learning the basics of measuring, lay out and fit up. We constantly touch on some metallurgy, so that everyone is aware of what the metal is going to do when welding occurs. The ability to self correct is a must. Not only are students required to know WHY a weld is wrong (undercut, etc.), but want caused the error and what needs to happen to fix it. In the shop environment, I try to duplicate the 'real world' as much as possible - which means that sometimes I get to yell (but I am very careful about that!)

You want to weld pipe, but the biggest complaint I hear from the guys out in the fields is that noobs can weld, but they don't have the "fitter" part of "pipe fitter".

You need to know blue prints, some codes and standards, how to use equipment. How to cut. How to grind. How to take care of your equipment and work space.

Most of this is obvious, but there are plenty of guys out there who don't have any experience in doing anything like this.

[Otto Nobedder]

Boomer63,

I'm presently dealing with one particular new-hire, who's welding school apparently never emphasized "how to roll up your leads when you're done."

This is a new "pet peeve" for me. In a work environment, I expect any machine I walk up to, to be ready to weld with. I do not want to spend ten minutes sorting out all the cords and lines he's absently rolled and tossed over the handles.

Here's a second one... One guy (a recent quit) would take all the shop-provided consumables off the torch, and put his own fancy "I'm a TIG hand!" crap on, then when done remove his crap and leave a bare torch head, with none of the consumables to be found.

Again, I expect any machine I pick to be "ready to weld," and may favorite setup is the one I don't have to change, or hunt, or assemble from scratch.

I'll gladly sharpen a tungsten, if a turd was left for me, as long as all the stuff is there!

How, exactly, does one teach consideration for others in a weld class?

Steve S

[TRACKRANGER]

Hello everyone tim here ive been working in production based in mig welding aluminum, stainless, and mild steel for a couple years now. We build industrial fans and I weld the wheels I just bought a shopmate 300 dx which im thouroughly enjoying learning stick welding a good friend at work has been to school for pipe welding. What I am wondering is it completely necessary for me to go to a trade school to get certified pipe welding to get an over the road job I dont claim to be perfect or know everything but I am really good at picking things up with minimal training. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated thanks all

Hi Tim, Welcome aboard.
Thoughts and opinions: You only get out what you put in
Don't expect to rely on shortcuts (incidentally. I don't think you do)
Rely on being able to deliver the goods. Practice make perfect. That piece of paper will make you instantly recognizable as certified, and able to deliver the goods. That'll mean a lot as far as safety is concerned just for a start. They'll know your welds will be to a uniform standard and skill level.

When I got my welding qualifications, my welding instructor was a qualified bridge welder. We just had to deliver the goods. He didn't accept second best. He set a tough standard, but I benefited from that in the long run. Short cuts = Short falls. Good luck, but expect it to get a little tough along the way and you'll do great. Keep us posted too, eh?

[Boomer63]

Hi Steve (Otto)! One of the main points I really, really try to get into my students is the idea of "professionalism". That includes clean up. Wrapping up cables. Taking care of tools. Maintaining equipment. Every day! I have a big, big problem here at my school (I am almost finished with my second year at this school). I am the only full time instructor. We have two part timers who teach night classes. These guys are - by my standards - completely nonprofessional pigs. It used to aggravate me that these morons would leave the shop in such an absolute mess. But then ... I noticed that it really aggravated my students. They noticed the lack of professional behavior and started to pick up their own game. After awhile, my guys started to take it personally when they saw poor shop clean up or the results of poor procedures. It helped!

The down side of all of this is that the night time students are taught by schlubs who really don't have a clue of what it takes to keep and hold a job in industry. (No shit; I met one of these morons and told him I was working on MIG vertical up. His response was: "Vertical up? No one does that!" I didn't know what to say to that, so I walked away. But that is how stupid these guys are). It takes a week or two, but I always teach the class procedure for complete shop clean up, every day! I did notice that there were always the few who really helped, and the few who did nothing. So, I made "clean up crews" of four to five people. They would be responsible for "entire shop clean up" for a week. What would happen is that for one week, crew "A" might be on duty. If you were not on crew "A", you cleaned up your own booth and went home. Understand? One day a week, each clean up crew would do a major clean; move machines, behind things, etc. To make it fun, I had the teams choose names, then we had a vote to see who had the best name. The top name so far are "Iron Men" and "Get 'R Done". The top team name gets some kind of award; usually I give them some gift certificates for the cafeteria.

My day goes like this: Early in the AM, I check each booth. I note where the night guys left a mess. At the end of each day, I check each booth before any of the students leave. Once they know what to do and what is expected of them, they usually do pretty well at clean up and maintenance. I inspect the shop before anyone from the clean up crew is allowed to leave. If someone misses class, or has to leave early on a day when they are on clean up crew, they will make that day up (at a rate of 2 for one miss) the following week. The point is that I am in the class room all day, every day. I watch and listen. Very, very little happens in the class that I am not aware of.

Teaching workers to be considerate of others is a part of the program. I purposefully do annoying and stupid things to the students, just to aggravate and annoy them (put 'stuff' in their way, 'borrow' tools without asking, or borrow and not return, etc). Then I point out that doing something like that on a job will get them fired, or get their ass kicked in the parking lot after work. For the last 35 years I have worked in too many places and seen too many idiots to not know what good and bad behavior looks like. With the "full immersion" class that I have, I am able to come pretty close to simulating job conditions. I know that I can't teach these guys everything they need to be journeymen welders; only time and experience can do that. What I strive to do is to give them to tools and skills to get and keep a job.

I ain't the smartest guy around, but I think about this stuff. I miss field work. But I feel like I am doing a lot of good here for the welding industry as a whole. Also, if I can help these folks to get into a skilled trade, it is a real life changer for them.

[weldin mike 27]

How do find the students are on their literacy? A trade school teacher I spoke to said that the biggest problem is that the kids can't read well enough to understand the course work.

[Boomer63]

How do find the students are on their literacy? A trade school teacher I spoke to said that the biggest problem is that the kids can't read well enough to understand the course work.

Hi Mike! I get some students who are absolutely brilliant; a hell of a lot smarter than me! I get others that really struggle. My biggest thing is that they understand the content. So here is a bit of what I do:

No one wants to listen to me lecture. I am actually very good at it, but folks who want to learn to weld are "hands on" people and don't want to listen to a decrepit, old fat guy tell them how to weld. So I limit lecture to 15 minutes, max. Sometimes I have to go over time, but very, very seldom.

Another thing I do is to "pound in" certain facts that they need to know. A couple of basic facts about machines, such as DC Positive or Negative, AC, etc. Or things like a COUPLE of electrode classifications; but they know what the numbers in each positions mean. Identifying tools, such as the difference between a finger tip clamp, a "C" clamp. Or blue print welding symbols. Now, I can cover this in class, and I do. But what I really do is drill them on this over and over. For example, I will put weld symbols on the white board. One exercise of this type might be where I draw in the joint with the weld, and the student has to draw in the correct symbol based on what they see. Or reverse that and draw in the weld symbol, and the student has to draw in the correct weld on the joint according to what they see in the given symbol. I do this once when then come back from break, and once when they come back from lunch. I have pages and pages of these "practice" exercises, so I won't run out. They get more and more complex as we learn more. I also do this with the shapes of tools and the AWS electrode classifications. I think you get the idea.

I like to make the weld symbol identification process fun (I like to make everything fun, if possible). So I usually have one mistake on the board. Now, keep in mind that there might be 20 - 30 symbols on the board. The first student to identify a "mistake" will get some kind of perk; like an excused early leave or late start. It keeps them very interested and on their toes.

As far as the book work goes, like I say, there is a limited amount of information that I feel like they need to have as they are going out into their welding careers. That would be the relevant information that I talked about earlier, that I try to pound into them. If I get a few who aren't "getting" the book work, I have them do the chapter assignments, then I pull them aside in the class room and do a "special" study with them. Usually it is the same kind of issues that they have, in that they just can't understand something in the way the book explains it. Shoot, most of us aren't really great "book smart" people, and we don't need to be. Personally, I don't want to be. I don't hold it against them. The important thing to me is that they ultimately understand the content, and that they remember the facts that I pound into them.

So, to wrap this up, I would say that I don't expect them to understand the course work. But there are elements that they absolutely MUST understand and have a real good grasp of. I can't cover those elements in one or two class sessions, their needs to repetition, repetition, repetition and more repetition to get those facts cemented into those skulls full of mush. They get good at video games because they do it over and over. They get good at welding because of repetition. They know what I need them to know because I meet them where they are and make sure they get it!

Sorry for being so long-winded!

[weldin mike 27]

Fair enough. To clarify, the dude that I was talking to was a teacher of welder/fabricator apprentices, so during their 3 years, they must learn indepth things like quality systems, industrial relations and other big reading topics. Being public system, budgets and times are chopped constantly and kids fall through the cracks.

[Otto Nobedder]

Boomer63,

If I retire from this before I die, I'd love to come teach with you. Or perhaps that Calumet outfit.

Passing it on is a noble ambition.

Steve S

[timothymass]

thanks alot everyone sorry ive been crazy busy and they told me they have a 100% job placement of people who are willing to wrk which i am so thats good and they said if im not capable of performing a process they will guide me to something I can do I start on monday so ill keep you guys posted as of my progress.
livin the dream lol

[timothymass]

does anyone have any questions one should ask the advisor at the technical institute that I might not think of it would be appreciated?

I would ask about their job placement program... Ask for a list of companies they've successfully placed graduates with, with statistics. Then look at those companies. See if the companies they refer graduates to actually do work you want to do, at what skill level, and what potential for advancement/further education.

Your MIG skills will already get you a job in a fab shop on a visual alone, but without opportunity, it's a bit like assembly line work. The fact you're interested in education tells me that's not the kind of career you want.

Steve S

Hey Steve thanks yeah I make decent money right now for what I do I work in a union shop building industrial fans its a great place to work and I enjoy it but i hate getting complacent in life. I want to broaden my horizons and get life experiences as well really I want to go over the road for a while to get a nest egg and travel again I am an army brat so its in my blood to move around alot lol.

[timothymass]

Boomer63,

I'm presently dealing with one particular new-hire, who's welding school apparently never emphasized "how to roll up your leads when you're done."

This is a new "pet peeve" for me. In a work environment, I expect any machine I walk up to, to be ready to weld with. I do not want to spend ten minutes sorting out all the cords and lines he's absently rolled and tossed over the handles.

Here's a second one... One guy (a recent quit) would take all the shop-provided consumables off the torch, and put his own fancy "I'm a TIG hand!" crap on, then when done remove his crap and leave a bare torch head, with none of the consumables to be found.

Again, I expect any machine I pick to be "ready to weld," and may favorite setup is the one I don't have to change, or hunt, or assemble from scratch.

I'll gladly sharpen a tungsten, if a turd was left for me, as long as all the stuff is there!

How, exactly, does one teach consideration for others in a weld class?

Steve S

lol yeah I know what you mean that kind of thing happens all the time at the shop im at now theyll claim something that only has a couple of welds on it.

[timothymass]

Hello everyone tim here ive been working in production based in mig welding aluminum, stainless, and mild steel for a couple years now. We build industrial fans and I weld the wheels I just bought a shopmate 300 dx which im thouroughly enjoying learning stick welding a good friend at work has been to school for pipe welding. What I am wondering is it completely necessary for me to go to a trade school to get certified pipe welding to get an over the road job I dont claim to be perfect or know everything but I am really good at picking things up with minimal training. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated thanks all

Hi Tim, Welcome aboard.
Thoughts and opinions: You only get out what you put in
Don't expect to rely on shortcuts (incidentally. I don't think you do)
Rely on being able to deliver the goods. Practice make perfect. That piece of paper will make you instantly recognizable as certified, and able to deliver the goods. That'll mean a lot as far as safety is concerned just for a start. They'll know your welds will be to a uniform standard and skill level.

When I got my welding qualifications, my welding instructor was a qualified bridge welder. We just had to deliver the goods. He didn't accept second best. He set a tough standard, but I benefited from that in the long run. Short cuts = Short falls. Good luck, but expect it to get a little tough along the way and you'll do great. Keep us posted too, eh?

Thanks for the encouragement sir and yeah safety is very important to me ive been in the manufacturing industry for 10 years or so and have seen more than id like to count of preventable injuries! I hate seeing people get hurt and ive been lucky enough to not have had more than a small cut on my hand in ten years.

[Boomer63]

Boomer63,

If I retire from this before I die, I'd love to come teach with you. Or perhaps that Calumet outfit.

Passing it on is a noble ambition.

Steve S

Steve, I WANT to work with that Calumet outfit! I ruined my shirt when I was on the tour because I was drooling all over it! I got into this education end because I was going to be too busted up for a couple of years to go back into the field. Knee (again), back and shoulder (again) all at the same time. I was living in Madison, Wisconsin at the time and I hit up the local college to find out what were the qualifications for being an instructor. At that time, all they were looking for was at least 5 years of multiprocess experience, which I had. They weren't hiring, so I started sending out my application to any school within a three hour radius. I had done some teaching at the ironwoker apprenticeship (local 63, Chicago) and I thought I had an idea of how this teaching gig should go. I didn't!

I ended up getting hired at a school in Minnesota, which needed someone for a two year gig. The guy who ran the school was a real hard ass, but he was a great teacher and ran a great program. He was a great welder/fabricator. He really, really taught me how to do the teaching thing; I mean, I learned or else! But it was a great experience and he is a great guy. During that time, my wife in Madison kicked me out so I ended up at loose ends, again. Back to being a boomer. I kicked around for a year or two and finally decided to take this job I am at now. This program needs piles and loads of work. I think about moving on or going back to the field, but I think my best bet, and the best bet for this program is for me to stick it out, fix it up and get this program looking like a jewel.

You can do this! The pay isn't that great. I like having summers off, with the long breaks in winter. I like being inside. I like not having to poop in a little plastic house. I miss field work. But I am warm and dry! I can tell you that it is a real thrill to see these folks come in, learn the craft, then go onto get good jobs in the industry. Some of them are doing very well for themselves. It is wonderful to hear that years after the fact that they have great jobs demanding high skill levels. It is ... difficult ... but they credit me for training them. My ego is not so big that I need the applause; because these guys have a lot of natural talent on their own.

Thanks for your work out here on the forum!

[Boomer63]

does anyone have any questions one should ask the advisor at the technical institute that I might not think of it would be appreciated?

I would ask about their job placement program... Ask for a list of companies they've successfully placed graduates with, with statistics. Then look at those companies. See if the companies they refer graduates to actually do work you want to do, at what skill level, and what potential for advancement/further education.

Your MIG skills will already get you a job in a fab shop on a visual alone, but without opportunity, it's a bit like assembly line work. The fact you're interested in education tells me that's not the kind of career you want.

Steve S

Hey Steve thanks yeah I make decent money right now for what I do I work in a union shop building industrial fans its a great place to work and I enjoy it but i hate getting complacent in life. I want to broaden my horizons and get life experiences as well really I want to go over the road for a while to get a nest egg and travel again I am an army brat so its in my blood to move around alot lol.

If you like to travel, look into the pipe fitter schools. Do your apprenticeship, get paid to learn, and you (generally) have a world class skill. Then head off to the wild west and do camp work. Go overseas. Do whatever. No one will ever be able to take that skill away from you. Also, note the name, pipe FITTER! I hear stories about noobs who get the 'welder' part but aren't to tight on the 'fitter' part.

[timothymass]

I started welding studies at midwest technical institute and am having a blast its a little rough welding 14 hours a day. But hopefully it will be worth it thanks for your guys advice and I will post pictures soon to show my progression if you guys would like that?

[timothymass]

Like I said acceptance criteria in the toilet. Here is an example of a student who was allowed to proceed to a more complicated task than he could handle. As you can see from the picture this poor guy has no clue how to run a 7018 uphill and more than likely had similar results even in the flat position. My guess, well I know, that throughout his training he never gained any mastery what so ever. BTW I’m pretty sure these were test plates, so this guy was considered skilled enough to test out?
As I said what do the school/instructors find acceptable and don’t be fooled by them spewing code crap, AWS this ASME that. See for yourself what they consider acceptable, it will speak volumes for the type of training your will receive.
John

goodness sakes they did him a disservice I can stick weld better than that now and I only started 4 weeks ago lol

[Butcher]

thanks alot everyone sorry ive been crazy busy and they told me they have a 100% job placement of people who are willing to wrk which i am so thats good and they said if im not capable of performing a process they will guide me to something I can do I start on monday so ill keep you guys posted as of my progress.
livin the dream lol

Where I go to school has a 100% job placement record. To graduate you need to do a 127 hour or 129 hour externship (I can't remember which one). So either an hour under 16 8 hour work days or an hour over. I thought this was kind of odd but then the extra hour or 7 hours (assuming you are not told to leave once you hit your minimal required hours) probably counts as employment once you are out of your required hours zone.

Long story short, not such an impressive statistic when you see how it happens.

I complained a couple of times in a very professional manner about the lack of instruction I received. Nothing was fixed for my class but I do believe future classes will have a much better experience than I did.