[trainingGrounds]

Hello, (Edit: I'm using 1/4" flat bar since I'm practicing and not doing the test yet)

I just started doing this and it is not like vertical open root. With vertical open root I could slowly make progress increasing my consistency and having the right pause and whip as I went up. That was it. Not much problem in finding a good heat to work with.

But overhead is just killing me. I've tried from 60amps to 90amps. I've been keeping the rod at a 90 between the two plates as best I can and run it straight as best I can. I've tried tilting the rod away from me and tried keeping it parallel to me. I've tried pushing the rod as far as I can go without sticking it. I've tried multiple timings using a count of 1-2-3-1-2-3...or 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4...And nothing.

I can't get this route to not sink down concave from the back. I can't get it to be high enough on the back. At times I'm fairly consistent and at times I have gaps between each whip and pause. Nobody online has this type of pass where they show it to where I can do it. I try to do it and it never comes out the way it should be and even the way I'm able to do vertical. Vertical is near easy for me. It's straightforward and I can get it but this overhead is eluding me on all points. I just don't understand how to get it to lay up high enough.

What is the technique that people are using to make sure the metal sits up high enough on the back? If I can have some solid ideas about that then I'm fairly certain I will be able to do it and fix my consistency after. Thanks

PS: I've begun to try to shorten the landing a little bit and see if that makes it easier to put up on top. I will also shorten the gap by varying amounts to see if anything works. But I'll know how that goes today. It's what I'm trying next. (I know the general recommendation is to use 70-75 amps)

[cj737]

Overhead amps are the same as flat. It’s the identical motion, rod angle and amperage; just your body position is out of whack. Get physically comfortable where you can see what you’re doing, arms propped if at all possible, and stand “outside” the weld line to prevent falling sparks burning you to a crisp.

It’s all positioning...

[Poland308]

Make sure your land is consistent. Try closing up your gap to 3/32 if it’s allowed. I run about 75 amps on pipe, schedule 40 is about 1/4 inch. You may need a heat sink if your plates are narrow.

[trainingGrounds]

I did go to a 3/32" gap and I did take off a little more metal on the landing so maybe a 3/32" landing or so. I jumped over to a newer machine, a multiprocess mig machine with Hot Start and it ran so much smoother. I put it at 82 amps though and was getting a nice key hole and I got a much better route by pretty much changing nothing of how I welded it. I went back to the old machine and got similar results at some points but realize that I think the old machine needed a little more amps to get the same result.

Overall, the 3/32" gap and landing was way better. I didn't have to change any technique. It just worked a lot better. I tried running the 1/8" gap again on the new machine just to see and it had similar results as before. I hope I'll be able to test out on this weld using the 3/32" gap or else I am going to fail it miserably. It seemed so easy compared to 1/8".

All I need to do now is just make it completely uniform and my instructor will pass me to the test. I might be there tomorrow even but definitely by the end of next week.

Why are there no videos on youtube explaining this? I saw weldtube and chucke2009 both use different landings and gaps and got good results. Why is my instructor trying to force me to weld it 1 way? On a job will I be handed a WPS that requires 1/8" gap and landing? Or is that something that the welder gets to decide every time?

[cj737]

It sounds as though your Instructor is a knucklehead. Didn’t he also restrict you from a weave on another test? Perhaps he “read in a book...” how it’s supposed to be done, and has not actually accumulated the experience needed to know how to do it?

[Poland308]

Good results with different set ups comes from experience. You just need more practice.

[trainingGrounds]

It sounds as though your Instructor is a knucklehead. Didn’t he also restrict you from a weave on another test? Perhaps he “read in a book...” how it’s supposed to be done, and has not actually accumulated the experience needed to know how to do it?

I've learned more from youtube than this school. His "demonstration" of how to do this 4G open root was doing it backwards and was only an inch long. I've been pulling the rod towards me but he pushed the rod away from himself saying that was how you see the puddle better. But when I tried it, I did so much worse and I couldn't see the puddle better. So I've been pulling the rod towards me which is how I've seen everyone weld it on youtube. But then he didn't demonstrate more than an inch! I can weld a good inch at the start. It doesn't have the same heat to blow out the key hole at the end. So I have no real instruction as to how I am supposed to weld it. We have been pretty much left to sink or swim so I watch youtube videos to learn how to do everything pretty much. It's not to say he doesn't know anything but pretty much he is hit or miss. I can't tell when he is telling me the right thing or when he is not telling me enough to know or when he is just missing what is going on. Which is why I've ran this route from 60amps to 90amps just to be sure how the metal reacts so I can know for myself why we weld it the way we do.

Honestly, if I have to do the 1/8" gap for any reason then I will leave the landing thicker than 1/8" and weld it at the lowest amperage I can without sticking the rod. And if I have a tighter gap than 1/8" then I will leave the landing a little thinner and weld at the highest amperage I can without blowing out the key hole at the end of the route. That's what I've learned so far and I've had to figure that out all by myself.

[Poland308]

That can be a Double edge sword you have to break down the back edge of both sides of the metal. Too low of heat and you won’t always get both edges. Remember as you use different machines it’s common for there to be 10 amps difference between the same amp settings. Try to use the same machine as much as possible.

[trainingGrounds]

That can be a Double edge sword you have to break down the back edge of both sides of the metal. Too low of heat and you won’t always get both edges. Remember as you use different machines it’s common for there to be 10 amps difference between the same amp settings. Try to use the same machine as much as possible.

Good to know. I'm still figuring this out. Welding this weld is unlike anything I've done before it. It's not laying in right at all. All my skills I've gained up to this point are not applying. I go back to vertical and in it goes and lays up no problem. So I know I'm not crazy.

I think I'm just not getting high enough into the key hole? And then I'm not moving back and forth uniformly? My instructor said to push back on the puddle a little bit in order to make the gaps squished together so there is no undercut. That's what I'll be working on next week. It's like I've been almost there for a long time and can't just get the thing to do what I want. But that's the grind.

[Poland308]

I use a steady drag no whip. Keep the rod so far in it feels like your welding the back side of the plate.

[trainingGrounds]

I use a steady drag no whip. Keep the rod so far in it feels like your welding the back side of the plate.

I will try that. I expect I'll have to go back to 1/8" gap to do it. But I will over exaggerate how far I'm in to the key hole and try to drag it slowly.

[trainingGrounds]

I don't know how this is done. I can't put it up into the key hole far enough at 75 amps but even then I have concavity all the way through. The only time I get good results is with 3/32" gap and landing at 85 amps. I whip and pause uniformly and my instructor said it was almost there. Just push it together a little more and he'd pass me.

But I can't do this weld at any other fit up and heat. Everything else I've tried doesn't work with what I'm seeing and what technique I'm using and I can't find any other technique that does anything remotely good besides the whip and pause.

Will a WPS specify that I must have a 1/8" gap and landing or will I always be able to determine the fit up for something like this?

[Poland308]

If there’s no WPS then it’s up to you to use best practices. All weld machines are a little different so your 85 amps might be the same as my 75. Does your machine have an arc force setting? If so it should be around 7 or 70 depending on the scale.

[trainingGrounds]

If there’s no WPS then it’s up to you to use best practices. All weld machines are a little different so your 85 amps might be the same as my 75. Does your machine have an arc force setting? If so it should be around 7 or 70 depending on the scale.

It was on 3 then the instructor came in and turned it to 0. I'll put it to 7 and try it.

[Poland308]

0-3 is a softer arc usually used for 7018. 7-10 is more arc force usually 6010. There are times I will adjust up or down from those but there unique not normal.

[trainingGrounds]

I turned a corner today in welding this. I realized that you've got to stay moving or you overheat it and it sags. So you long arc it, get it hot and push up the key hole and then keep moving with it and it does much better.

My instructor said that people require it to be 1/8" gap and landing and that if I were to change it then I'd get fired or fail the test right there. I understand if the WPS lists it as a requirement then that would be the case but it's not that common is it? Does every company tell you exactly how you are supposed to weld it or you get fired not welding it the way they want? I get the heat requirements and ranges but the fit up as well?

[Poland308]

If it’s code work. Either structural or pressure then yes you will loose your spot if you deviate. But especially in the code work world you will find an understanding about actual welds. On a test of any kind you will be failed for deviation. If you aspire to doing high end code work then you need to focus on adapting what you know with what you see happening in the moment. Then making adjustments to stay within the code. I have seen a few times when holding to the code was literally not possible. Those times required documentation and third party inspections to confirm the conditions existed. Then and only then the engineers had to refigure and approve the change. Then they also had to accept liability.

[trainingGrounds]

Ok, but does it specify the gap and landing in the code? How specific does the code get in general?

[Poland308]

The code says you have to abide by the WPS. That WPS changes depending on the circumstances. The WPS will give you a range of allowances. For instance, The gap may be between 3/32 - 1/8. The land may be between 3/32 -1/8. The filler may be between 3/32 - 5/32. Amps can be between 120- 150. And so on......
On structure work it will be the same for a given joint setup. On pressure vessels work it will depend on the original specs of the vessels or on the engineered specs of the repaired vessel.

[Poland308]

Here’s an example of a WPS
https://docs2.neb-one.gc.ca/ll-eng/llis ... viewType=1

[trainingGrounds]

That WPS is one large document. So for this it gives a range of 3/16" to 1/16" gap and 3/32" to 1/32" landing or root face. That's exactly what I'm doing for my tests so I get it that the idea is you always have to be within specification but my instructor made it sound like I was doing things that would never be allowed by tightening the gap at all. This is why I'm on this forum though to get more advice and hear more of the story. My instructor loves to tell me that he would fire me all the time if I do anything wrong and it's really annoying.

Anyways, thanks for that WPS. I learned a lot just reading through it. My question about it is about the Radiography. It shows that the weld is accepted but it looks as though it checked many "films" (I don't know what those are) as having porosity and one with slag inclusions. And finally it said there was a hollow bead somewhere at the end I guess? So how was the weld accepted with those defects?

[cj737]

That's exactly what I'm doing for my tests so I get it that the idea is you always have to be within specification but my instructor made it sound like I was doing things that would never be allowed by tightening the gap at all. Because he is a knucklehead and obviously never read the WPS.

My instructor loves to tell me that he would fire me all the time if I do anything wrong and it's really annoying. As if he were actually qualified to hire and supervise people...

[BillE.Dee]

did someone forget where they came from ??

[trainingGrounds]

Because he is a knucklehead and obviously never read the WPS.
As if he were actually qualified to hire and supervise people...

Yeah this instructor is actually quite a mess. He actually said to all of us that he's not doing his job for us, and I quote, "I don't care about you guys. I'm just doing this for the pension." After that I had no more respect for him. He's not a teacher. He's just some "certified welding inspector" that's trying not to work anymore. So I know he's not trying to help us out from the heart.

I could seriously go on about the horrible things this guy has said and how much he tries to compensate for his lack of manhood in trying to act hard all the time. But it wouldn't be worth it here. The only reason he has his job is because he's got that certification and has the school believing that he's the only one who can do the job. So I make do with youtube and these forums when I need to and have made off alright.

[cj737]

Good on you, TrainingGround. You’re learning one of life’s toughest lessons: your future is up to you and what you put into it. Extract all you can while in school, and bend the learning curve of life by hard work, determination, and a top shelf attitude. You’ll do well and put that knucklehead in your rear view mirror