And hello there, how are ya goings?
So I helped a mate weld up a chicken coup the last weekend. We used 25mm box steel to add the required bits, and it was like, I dunno, 2mm thick ish, if that.
I used 6010 to fill in the fitting mis matches and to do the initial joints, and then used 7016 to get a bit more substance to the welds.
Pretty much though, it was a bit of a pain in the ass, as the box steel blew through a number of times. I bought some magmaweld 6013 today, because apparently 6013 was designed for thin shit. I have never had any luck controlling what 6013 does, some days it works and makes pretty welds, others it decides to be a dick and have lots of slag inclusions and what not.
Annnnnnnnyway, I was wondering if anyone knows of a cheap/efficient way to practice overhead/vertical/downhand welds of thin steel so burn a few kg's of 6013 and learn how to do it.
Any suggestions?
Cheers
Well so far, it seems vertical up is easiest and produces the nicest looking welds when I have the electrode pointing _down_.
I had a few inch square 2mm sheet cutouts which I welded to a 6mm plat, and then welded them together... 60 amps horizontal with a tiny weaving pattern worked really well, as did vertical, though it blew out at the top. Interestings. Slowly starting to get the hang of it, and have noticed that the slag pockets appear when I move to fast, or do not weave enough (or direct on to both chunks of metal evenly).
It sure does look pretty when it works out, and the slag seems to self peel off.
I had a few inch square 2mm sheet cutouts which I welded to a 6mm plat, and then welded them together... 60 amps horizontal with a tiny weaving pattern worked really well, as did vertical, though it blew out at the top. Interestings. Slowly starting to get the hang of it, and have noticed that the slag pockets appear when I move to fast, or do not weave enough (or direct on to both chunks of metal evenly).
It sure does look pretty when it works out, and the slag seems to self peel off.
it depends a lot on what rods you get. there is a very wide range of 6013. eg double coated thick rutile, rutile mixed with cellulose.
with thin stuff i usually run it on negative polarity and also running downhill can work really well to, just have to out run the slag.
1.6mm wall tube with 2.5mm rods no problem.
with thin stuff i usually run it on negative polarity and also running downhill can work really well to, just have to out run the slag.
1.6mm wall tube with 2.5mm rods no problem.
tweak it until it breaks
7014s or ferrocraft 21 to be specific are my goto if I cant use low hyds.
But if you must run 13s , good amps tight arc and find a good angle on vertdowns which I find is about 5 degrees ish up.
Not welding a whole join in one can help with blow throughs.
Like do one side of rhs and come back for the other sides as you go if you got good tacks it helps.
Overheads take a bit of prac but if you keep it tight and not a heap of angle it goes ok usually similar settings to downhand, dont get tepmted to turn too much cause thats where it goes pear shaped.
Welding supply shops always have a shit tonne of 13 sticks and talk em up bigtime but the 14s are usually similar price and much smoother, I can not remember the last time I used a 13 stick........for its intended purpose, they make good hooks.
But if you must run 13s , good amps tight arc and find a good angle on vertdowns which I find is about 5 degrees ish up.
Not welding a whole join in one can help with blow throughs.
Like do one side of rhs and come back for the other sides as you go if you got good tacks it helps.
Overheads take a bit of prac but if you keep it tight and not a heap of angle it goes ok usually similar settings to downhand, dont get tepmted to turn too much cause thats where it goes pear shaped.
Welding supply shops always have a shit tonne of 13 sticks and talk em up bigtime but the 14s are usually similar price and much smoother, I can not remember the last time I used a 13 stick........for its intended purpose, they make good hooks.
Thanks for the replies. The rod I bought was a Rutile-Cellulosic one, here; https://www.magmaweld.com/welding-consu ... /uo/esr-11
I have an 18 box of bourbons and am working through trials. I really cannot get downhill to work very well... some parts of it look fine, then POW, the dual bead middle slag inclusion curse happens. Tried increasing amperage, to way above what the rod box suggest, but cant get ahead of the slag and also lay a decent bead.
Uphill is way way more controlable though, its semi like 7016/7018 in that a tiny bit of weaving makes it nice... except I have to sort of guess as to how its actually filling in in the middle.. because I cannot see the puddle really. But 100% easier than downhill in terms of lack of slag inclusions and stuff.
Its actually quite enjoyable now though... 6013 used to piss me off, but now if I get it right and semi predict what it will do, and if it does it, its quite satisfying.
More practice I guess. But I am at a loss on how to tell what is actually happening in the puddle under all that slag.
I have an 18 box of bourbons and am working through trials. I really cannot get downhill to work very well... some parts of it look fine, then POW, the dual bead middle slag inclusion curse happens. Tried increasing amperage, to way above what the rod box suggest, but cant get ahead of the slag and also lay a decent bead.
Uphill is way way more controlable though, its semi like 7016/7018 in that a tiny bit of weaving makes it nice... except I have to sort of guess as to how its actually filling in in the middle.. because I cannot see the puddle really. But 100% easier than downhill in terms of lack of slag inclusions and stuff.
Its actually quite enjoyable now though... 6013 used to piss me off, but now if I get it right and semi predict what it will do, and if it does it, its quite satisfying.
More practice I guess. But I am at a loss on how to tell what is actually happening in the puddle under all that slag.
So I was dicking around wtih vertical for a while ( on a 6mm plate ) and went 'yeah nah yeah time for something different' and tried some 6010. I normally weld with ear plugs in out of habit, but this time did not, and holy shit was 6010 noisy in comparison to 6013. ROOOOOOOARRRRRR SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! it said, in no uncertain terms.
Then I thought it was my duty to re-try 6010 on thin metal, the scrap I brought back from work. I set my arc force to 10 ( the max on an EWM pico 160 cel puls ) and compared a 6010 to a 6013.
So yes, the 6010 was at 25A, and doing a whippy type thingy, and because I could see the puddle it was super easy to see what was going on.
6013 at less amps than the 6010 blew through. I practiced about 5 times outside of the shown picture before I got a setting for the 6013 that semi worked, which initially was 20A, ( the middle one which blew through ) and then 15A, which seemed to work ok.
I am starting to wonder if I should have just used an arc force of 10 instead of 0 with the 6010 on the most recent job, and might have had a much better time of things. It was for sure shit loads easier to control.
The metal was 1.6mm, and the rods were both 2.5mm.
Then I thought it was my duty to re-try 6010 on thin metal, the scrap I brought back from work. I set my arc force to 10 ( the max on an EWM pico 160 cel puls ) and compared a 6010 to a 6013.
- thin metal thingys.jpg (5.75 MiB) Viewed 28820 times
6013 at less amps than the 6010 blew through. I practiced about 5 times outside of the shown picture before I got a setting for the 6013 that semi worked, which initially was 20A, ( the middle one which blew through ) and then 15A, which seemed to work ok.
I am starting to wonder if I should have just used an arc force of 10 instead of 0 with the 6010 on the most recent job, and might have had a much better time of things. It was for sure shit loads easier to control.
The metal was 1.6mm, and the rods were both 2.5mm.
Crikey. Had some more bourbons and turned the arc force down to -10, and dicked around again. The 6010 worked as per usual, but needed a higher amperage. But I ended up drinking myself into a situation where I was kinda whipping/stepping the 6013, except not over it's self.. kind of a tight Z fashion. Using this I was able to lay a bead on the edge of the thin metal in long beads without the edge falling off like it usually does, which was way more satisfying than it has any right to be.
This welding business... it seems like the learning is endless, and thus, the satisfaction. Aint even got on to mig or tig yet. What an awesome trade
This welding business... it seems like the learning is endless, and thus, the satisfaction. Aint even got on to mig or tig yet. What an awesome trade
I cut up about 20 or 30 odd peices of 30x30x 60 long 2mm box tube stuff, and practiced making t joints, and butt welds with it. Tried both kobe 2.0mm 6013, and magmaweld 2.5mm 6013. Some times, the welds looked really pretty. Most times, while doing seemingly the same thing, parts of the welds came out horrible, slag inclusions, split bead, etc.
This was on electrode negative.
I tried 6010 again, electrode negative, and there is just no comparison. The 6010 was _way_ easier to control on actual welds between two pieces. Of particular note, was welding the edge of the T joints.. where the radius in the box steel presented a bit of a gap and an edge of the other piece. The 6013 was really hard to weld this horizontally Often times it blew away the edge of the top section about half way through the weld.
With 6010 I just spent most the time on the bottom piece, built up some filler, and then kinda moved up to the top bit, and back down again in C like motions. It seemed like I was able to push filler into the gap, and have the two join nicely. Over all, it was just a shit load easier to control, probably primarily because I could actually see the puddle, the molten metal joining together and building up.
I might spend a few more hours with the 6013 to see if I can get the knack of it, but really, it seems like 6010 is way way more practical and controllable than the 6013 methods/rods I have tried thus far. I was using about 35 amps, 0 arc force.
Perhaps I should move on to 7014 as suggested if its cheaper than 6010 and works out easier/nicer.
This was on electrode negative.
I tried 6010 again, electrode negative, and there is just no comparison. The 6010 was _way_ easier to control on actual welds between two pieces. Of particular note, was welding the edge of the T joints.. where the radius in the box steel presented a bit of a gap and an edge of the other piece. The 6013 was really hard to weld this horizontally Often times it blew away the edge of the top section about half way through the weld.
With 6010 I just spent most the time on the bottom piece, built up some filler, and then kinda moved up to the top bit, and back down again in C like motions. It seemed like I was able to push filler into the gap, and have the two join nicely. Over all, it was just a shit load easier to control, probably primarily because I could actually see the puddle, the molten metal joining together and building up.
I might spend a few more hours with the 6013 to see if I can get the knack of it, but really, it seems like 6010 is way way more practical and controllable than the 6013 methods/rods I have tried thus far. I was using about 35 amps, 0 arc force.
Perhaps I should move on to 7014 as suggested if its cheaper than 6010 and works out easier/nicer.
got any pics?
if your getting slag inclusions then typically the problem is rod angle.
you need to use the arc to blow back the slag. so typically 45 degree angle. also need to use enough amps and keep up a decent travel speed.
part of it is to out run the slag.
also make sure your not trying to make a large bead profile. on thin material you only need a small weld.
if your getting slag inclusions then typically the problem is rod angle.
you need to use the arc to blow back the slag. so typically 45 degree angle. also need to use enough amps and keep up a decent travel speed.
part of it is to out run the slag.
also make sure your not trying to make a large bead profile. on thin material you only need a small weld.
tweak it until it breaks
Here are some of the bad ones;tweake wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 7:36 pm got any pics?
if your getting slag inclusions then typically the problem is rod angle.
you need to use the arc to blow back the slag. so typically 45 degree angle. also need to use enough amps and keep up a decent travel speed.
part of it is to out run the slag.
also make sure your not trying to make a large bead profile. on thin material you only need a small weld.
- IMG_20220529_170704_284.jpg (5.14 MiB) Viewed 28756 times
- IMG_20220529_170647_282.jpg (4.82 MiB) Viewed 28756 times
- IMG_20220529_170612_599.jpg (5.24 MiB) Viewed 28756 times
- IMG_20220529_170543_473.jpg (800.93 KiB) Viewed 28756 times
- IMG_20220529_170454_805.jpg (830.04 KiB) Viewed 28756 times
- IMG_20220529_170424_553.jpg (317.6 KiB) Viewed 28756 times
Did try experiments though just before I finished up though, I welded one side of one end of a 25x25x2.5mm on to the same box steel shown in the pictures while it was in a vice. I tried around 90 amps with a 2.5mm 6013 rod and bead looked nice somehow, no inclusions ( though no edges to melt away either). Pulled on the tube so it bent toward toward the weld... snapped rather easy, right in the center of the weld.
Done the same test with 6010 and 7018, and the metal broke off above the weld, the weld itself did not budge.
a lot of those look like its to cold and to slow.
also the slag inclusion at the start is either to cold or rod angle.
when i get the garage cleaned up enough (full of sawdust and oil at the mo) i shall see if i can run some myself. it would be a good trail of these crappy new ones i have.
also the slag inclusion at the start is either to cold or rod angle.
when i get the garage cleaned up enough (full of sawdust and oil at the mo) i shall see if i can run some myself. it would be a good trail of these crappy new ones i have.
tweak it until it breaks
Done some more practice and farting about.. and made sure to be holding a spastic angle, like at least 45, often times 60 or so degrees. So far not very many slag inclusions, except for the start. I think I might have fixed that by not back stepping very much, more just semi long arcing in place, and stepping back only a tiny amount.tweake wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:12 am a lot of those look like its to cold and to slow.
also the slag inclusion at the start is either to cold or rod angle.
when i get the garage cleaned up enough (full of sawdust and oil at the mo) i shall see if i can run some myself. it would be a good trail of these crappy new ones i have.
Also increased the amperage and the travel speed, that helped a bit, however I still blow through on thin sheet. I was testing on some 1.6mm stuff using about 35 amps on a 2.5 mm rod, and it worked pretty well, but about 4 or 5 inches in it blew through. I am starting to notice a change in the arc/puddle/mess just before it blows through though, so a few more and I think I will know when to stop. Same thing seemed to happen with a 2.0 mm rod with less amps.
The interesting thing though, looking on the back side of the sheet, was that it had melted down.. almost like a second bead, but without the slag. This was almost the entire length of the weld, save a cm or so just after the start.
On thicker, 2.5mm stuff, at 75 amps or so, the extreme rod angle really helped. Really really nice looking beads, even over shitty unclean metal and previous beads with tiny bits of slag at the toes. At no times, except sometimes when I stuffed up the very start, did the slag cover the arc/puddle.
I think basically I could weld thin stuff now if I took the time to properly fit stuff so it had minimal or no gaps in the fitups.. which is bit of a pain in the ass for SHS, but I guess I could make a stencil and use a plasma cutter and save a lot of grinding and dicking around.
Starts are the only thing I seem to have problems with, but somehow restarts seem ok... just strike ahead, move back into end of previous bead, and carry on. How do you guys start 6013 ? Any back stepping action? Do you scratch or peck down?
good fit ups always makes welding easier. tig is the same. spending the time trueing up the bandsaw makes the welding a lot easier and quicker with nice looking results. something i've been learning the hard way.
one of the IG welders showed their trick, trueing up the pipe ends on the linisher.
my plans have gone to crap. half way through oil change on the compressor and they cancelled the oil delivery. now i have to go find some rather special compressor oil and get that done before i can free up the garage.
one of the IG welders showed their trick, trueing up the pipe ends on the linisher.
my plans have gone to crap. half way through oil change on the compressor and they cancelled the oil delivery. now i have to go find some rather special compressor oil and get that done before i can free up the garage.
tweak it until it breaks
Hmmmmm.
Another friday, another box of bourbon, another set of trials
Pulsed stick welding seems to be helping on the thin metal. I went outrageous and set it to 70 hz, and 50 balance. Was able to circle around previously blown holes and fill them in, and also run past previously blown holes without anything falling in... on 50 amps, the previous amperage which blew said holes. This was on 50% balance. I tried 80% and that was aggressive, it seemed similar to no pulsing.. and also a lot noisier.
My last run I ran a random bead through spare space on the sheet, and ran about.. I dunno, 6 inches or so, with the first 4 being straight and the last few being random wonky zig zags. It all worked out fine, and looking on the back, I saw a part of it started falling through for like a cm or so, but then resumed to normal. That has never happened before (normally it blows through afterwards)
More trials ahoy!
Another friday, another box of bourbon, another set of trials
Pulsed stick welding seems to be helping on the thin metal. I went outrageous and set it to 70 hz, and 50 balance. Was able to circle around previously blown holes and fill them in, and also run past previously blown holes without anything falling in... on 50 amps, the previous amperage which blew said holes. This was on 50% balance. I tried 80% and that was aggressive, it seemed similar to no pulsing.. and also a lot noisier.
My last run I ran a random bead through spare space on the sheet, and ran about.. I dunno, 6 inches or so, with the first 4 being straight and the last few being random wonky zig zags. It all worked out fine, and looking on the back, I saw a part of it started falling through for like a cm or so, but then resumed to normal. That has never happened before (normally it blows through afterwards)
More trials ahoy!
So these top 4 beads were done @ 40 amps, 70 Hz, 50% balance ( ignore the 50hz chalk ). They are 2.5mm rods, electrode negative.
The ones below it were of 2.5/2.0 mm rods, at around 35 amps, but just normal straight DC, no pulse ( from about a week or two ago ).
An interesting thing I have noticed with this pulse business, is the pulse noise increases with arc length... so its a very cool gizmo to help regulate arc length I just need to download some coordination from somewhere to make use of it
The ones below it were of 2.5/2.0 mm rods, at around 35 amps, but just normal straight DC, no pulse ( from about a week or two ago ).
An interesting thing I have noticed with this pulse business, is the pulse noise increases with arc length... so its a very cool gizmo to help regulate arc length
I just need to download some coordination from somewhere to make use of it - Attachments
-
- IMG_20220611_004419_931.jpg (5.98 MiB) Viewed 28687 times
-
- IMG_20220611_004345_689.jpg (5.7 MiB) Viewed 28687 times
So last Sunday I went into work to try out some new weld lenses ( so excited about trying out different passive lenses at the moment ). Anyway, I was also dicking around with some LB52U 7016, which is a low hydrogen rod designed for root passes and what not. After hours of welding on plate, I decided to try it on thin metal (1.6mm SHS), and for this I used electrode negative, and I dunno, about 40 or 50 amps or something like that.
Magic. By doing a slight weave from one side to the other, I was able to weld it up no worries, wayyyyyyyy easier than any 6013 I have ever tried. I don't have a picture here, but it was really quite surprising how easy it was, and they looked like normal beads, not rushed ones or full of slag surprises like 6013.
I also tried fillet welds of scrap box section to box section, as in a T joint, and the cut was not square, so there were gaps. That worked out excellent as well. Part way through one weld, where I was weaving up and down to fill in the gap, it blew through with that echo shhhhh noise, but I just stayed in the same spot, and let it fill in the hole.. and carried on. Weld came out like it never blew through. And it was all rather casual.. I did not feel like I needed to rush
So anyone who wants to weld thin stuff with a stick welder, I strongly suggest twin coated 7016 on electrode negative. In my case it was Kobe LB52U, I will try some other similar branded rods to see if they behave the same. It has really thin slag, so you can actually see the puddle nicely.
As a side note, has anyone tried flare reducing lenses, like the magenta and blue drop ins from phillips, or the ones from opti cool? I have some of these arriving soon and am curious as to how effective they are.
Magic. By doing a slight weave from one side to the other, I was able to weld it up no worries, wayyyyyyyy easier than any 6013 I have ever tried. I don't have a picture here, but it was really quite surprising how easy it was, and they looked like normal beads, not rushed ones or full of slag surprises like 6013.
I also tried fillet welds of scrap box section to box section, as in a T joint, and the cut was not square, so there were gaps. That worked out excellent as well. Part way through one weld, where I was weaving up and down to fill in the gap, it blew through with that echo shhhhh noise, but I just stayed in the same spot, and let it fill in the hole.. and carried on. Weld came out like it never blew through. And it was all rather casual.. I did not feel like I needed to rush
So anyone who wants to weld thin stuff with a stick welder, I strongly suggest twin coated 7016 on electrode negative. In my case it was Kobe LB52U, I will try some other similar branded rods to see if they behave the same. It has really thin slag, so you can actually see the puddle nicely.
As a side note, has anyone tried flare reducing lenses, like the magenta and blue drop ins from phillips, or the ones from opti cool? I have some of these arriving soon and am curious as to how effective they are.
i've only ever done the 7016 negative on thick plate and even then its was only a small bit. but yes its rather nice but rather slow. its actually for doing pipe welds. i don't think i have done it on thin material, so thats something i will have to try once i get this other project out the way.
tweak it until it breaks
12 bourbons, 40 amps, 7016 on 1.6mm sheet
I would like to clean it up properly but its 1am and I do not want to wake people. Each has a restart in there.
I would like to clean it up properly but its 1am and I do not want to wake people. Each has a restart in there.
- IMG_20220802_002616_547.jpg (5.79 MiB) Viewed 28420 times
- IMG_20220802_002222_934.jpg (4.4 MiB) Viewed 28420 times
More dicking around;
From top to bottom;
6013, 45 amps, EN
7016 45 amps, EN
7016 40 amps, EN
6013 40 amps, EN
I found 6013 easier to follow the chalk line for whatever reason. Perhaps because of the shade I am using, I am not sure. Also the 6013 definitely sounded smoother, and was more consistent in its arc behavior in this nice easy flat situation.The 7016 was a bit more bubbly in comparison, as in it was sounding like pshhhht pt pt pt pshhhhhhht pt pt kind of thing.. sort of like the normal crackles with 7018, but more frequent and slightly louder.
- 6013_vs_7016.jpg (4.01 MiB) Viewed 28410 times
6013, 45 amps, EN
7016 45 amps, EN
7016 40 amps, EN
6013 40 amps, EN
I found 6013 easier to follow the chalk line for whatever reason. Perhaps because of the shade I am using, I am not sure. Also the 6013 definitely sounded smoother, and was more consistent in its arc behavior in this nice easy flat situation.The 7016 was a bit more bubbly in comparison, as in it was sounding like pshhhht pt pt pt pshhhhhhht pt pt kind of thing.. sort of like the normal crackles with 7018, but more frequent and slightly louder.
Interesting thing I have found with pulse, with both 6013 and 7016. Without pulse, I was running into occasional situations at low amperage's (around 30-50 amps on 2.5mm rods) where the slag was starting to cover the puddle. To fix this I was previously kind of slightly long arcing with steep rod angle and/or doing slight C weave type things to push the slag back, but it was a pain in the ass on occasion. I tried pulse, initially at 200 Hz but this was obnoxiously loud and annoying, but then at 20 Hz. Both settings though, seemed to help push the slag away,.. and so the only manipulation left was to actually put the metal where I wanted it. Quite interesting. The beads ended up looking like a normal beads with the normal tiny fine ripples, with both 6013 and 7016.