[chadwarden]

In my welding class, we're doing a 1g plate with a 45 degree bevel and about a 1 mm gap just as an exercise. I'm having some trouble with getting the first pass done right and was wondering if I should just string it or do that whip and pause motion. Any advice? Also, am I to really dig into that gap when I'm doing the root run with the electrode? Thanks in advance.

Also, what setting is better for 6013s? Electro negative or positive? I find that electro negative works better.

[Otto Nobedder]

6013 is not a "fast-freeze" rod like 6010/6011, nor does it have a cellulosic flux, so "whip and pause" will likely do more harm than good.

6013 is an AC-capable rod, but if I were to use it DC, I'd go electrode negative for the extra penetration, since 6013 is not a deep-penetration rod in AC mode.

I've never tried an open root with -13, but I'd expect that "jambing it in there" should work as long as you have enough amps behind it and/or a high arc-force setting.

I'll be interested to hear what works for you... I haven't burned a 6013 in about 25 years.

Steve S

[chadwarden]

All right, thanks. You haven't used one in 25 years? Are 6013s ever used outside of the classroom?

[Otto Nobedder]

6013 is the "go to" rod for quickie repairs on general equipment... They don't care if the metal is dirty, and every farmer/equipment owner can afford an AC crackerbox that will burn them.

I have NO idea why they're in a classroom, as you'll never make much over minimum wage welding with them, and they'll teach you bad habits you can't get away with using money rod.

6010/7018 is the starting point for making a living burning stick-rod.

Steve S

[chadwarden]

Interesting... Are they a lot cheaper or something? Also, what kind of "bad habits" are you talking about?

[Otto Nobedder]

6013 is cheap enough that Wal-Mart Supercenters had them, beside the Chinese made "Chicago Electric" welders they had near the air tools.

6013 is forgiving of low or high current, cleanliness, rod angle, even travel speed. Being lax to any of these conditions will hurt you when you use 6010 and 7018.

I grossed (with per diem) $93K in seven months welding 6010/7018 on plate. Pipe pays much better. Advanced alloys pay better still (8010/11018).

6013 is a neighborhood shop job fixing mower decks, or a factory job assembling frames over and over.

I hope your course is using -13 as an introduction. If it's the end result...

[chadwarden]

Damn... where were you working making 93K in 7 months welding plates? Are you in the United States or Canada?

[Otto Nobedder]

That was Clinton, IA, for most of that time, building coal bunkers for a powerplant, then two months with the same company building a bio-deisel refinery in Nevada, MO.

Crappy company called A-Lert Construction.

Did better welding aluminum pipe... $28/hr, 67 hours/week, $85 per diem paid seven days a week for 5 months.

There's serious money in welding if you're willing to live in a cheap motel or a camper and be away from home most of the time.

Steve S

[Otto Nobedder]

BTW, I just noticed, I mistyped... It was $83K, not 93

[lazerbeam]

6013 is listed as a general purpose rod and it has always been popular because it is easy to weld with. A lot of teachers who teach a shop class where welding is just a part of the class like to use it because of their skill level or not having experience with other rods. Small buzz box welders are no excuse because school programs could easily use 6011's. When I started teaching agriculture mechanics in the 70's ac welders were all we had and I burned up all of the 6013's doing arc starts before they moved on to 6011's. 3/32" 6013's are good for sheet metal because of shallow penetration.

Kevin

[Otto Nobedder]

Kevin,

Your last statement about 6013 for thin material makes more sense than anything I've read on that rod on this forum.
The shallow penetration, especially in DCEP, might suit sheet metal quite well.

Steve S

[lazerbeam]

What scares me is the fact that 6013's are being used in a welding school situation. Even when I taught welding as a part of ag. mechanics I eventually got ac/dc welders and a 50 lb rod oven for 7018's. I have a couple of horror stories about equipment being welded together with 6013's.

[Otto Nobedder]

I hear you!

6013 is for welding patches on rusty mower decks. Not making a career as a welder.

[Alexa]

Chadwarden.

See the Lincoln link for some addtional info:
http://www.lincolnelectric.com.cn/engli ... rc6013.htm

The whipping or long-arcing 6013 and 7018 rods is not recommended, in that it reduces the protection of the weld puddle. In the position you stated, just run continuous and/or weave (side to side) passes, depending upon which is requested.

Alexa

[Tombstone]

Don't weave and pause with 6013. You will create "worm holes" which are just slag inclusions in the welds. 6013 is great for thin metal like 3/16" and thinner. However, for 1/8" or thinner, one should use DCEN and not DCEP. DCEP penetrates deeper than DCEN. AC fits right between EN and EP.

For 6013's, just barely barely barely drag the rod on the surface of the joint and it will come out nice ....with practice, of course.

[Alexa]

WEAVE & PAUSE vrs. WHIP & PAUSE

Maintaining a shorter arc with the electrode E6013 helps to reduce gaseous inclusions of various types and to reduce slag inclusions. Whipping the electrode E6013 diminishes the protection against the surrounding air.

The electrode E6013 may be used to weave a pass, moving from side-to-side. There are many techniques of weaving, but these techniques maintain a shorter arc without whipping. Probably all of them require a short pause at the sides of the pass. As the electrode reaches the side of the joint, it 'gouges' part of the base metal. For that reason, a pause allows the filler metal to fill up that gouge, before proceeding towards the opposite side. Of course there is a limit to the length of that side-to-side distance. If the distance across the pass is too long, then the edges of the pass become excessively cold, and when the electrode returns to it, there is the risk of slag inclusions.

Alexa

[roberts56]

Hey Chadwarden,

What thickness of plate are you going to do the 1g pass.

I don't think you will not have much problem applying the root pass on that using the ampere setting at 120 amp to 140 amp. You could probably use some tight neat circular motion moving slowly starting from left to right and watching the sides to prevent undercuts and better stay on the DCEN and the electrode at a slight angle.

Just keep on practicing to see what will give you the best result in the application. Remember, practice makes perfect !!

[rake]

I spent a lot of years pounding 11018 and 8018 in the shipyard. Lots of pressure hull work.
Probably burned tons of each.

IMHO 6013 is trashcan and plow blade wire.

[Otto Nobedder]

I spent a lot of years pounding 11018 and 8018 in the shipyard. Lots of pressure hull work.
Probably burned tons of each.

IMHO 6013 is trashcan and plow blade wire.

I hear you, and that's kind-of what I said.

6013 has it's place, but it's not in the classroom, unless it's 9th grade shop class, or an "Adult extension" intro to welding.

Steve S

[sgtnoah]

Steve,

You were in my neck of the woods when you were in Clinton, IA... ADM has been there for a long time, but have greatly expanded over the last number of years (guessing that's where you may have worked). That sugary cooked corn smell can take a while to get used to!

-- Pete

[Otto Nobedder]

Pete,

My wife despised that corn syrup smell...

Yeah, I worked on the bunker crew when ADM built that CoGen.

I really liked Clinton.

Steve S

[Ultralow787]

Hey Steve,
Bare with me if I missed something here, but I'm a bit confused by a comment you made in this thread a while back!
"6013 is an AC-capable rod, but if I were to use it DC, I'd go electrode negative for the extra penetration, since 6013 is not a deep-penetration rod in AC mode."
In the statement above, you mentioned that compared to AC, DCEN would have better penetration. Would DCEP have not even better penetration?
Thanks

[Alexa]

DCEP versus DCEN with TIG.
DCEP versus DCEN with STICK.

==========

QUOTE FROM ANOTHER SITE.
Link: http://www.thefabricator.com/article/ar ... -you-knowr

==========
QUOTE:

"... 3. Direct current electrode positive (DCEP) is what we used to call reverse polarity. Direct current electrode negative (DCEN) is what we used to call straight polarity. I suspect the same person who changed the word library to the learning resource center got a hold of these terms.
(...)
In DCEP the electricity flows into the tip of the welding rod and concentrates about two-thirds of the heat, which gives good penetration. DCEP is usually used on thicker steels.
(...)
In DCEN the electricity flows out of the rod, concentrating about one-third of the heat on the rod. Less penetration makes this a very good choice for thinner steels.
(...)
Right about now, some of you are hauling to your e-mail to tell me that I'm wrong about the penetration. Some journals say that DCEN gives better penetration. I had to look through three different journals before I found one that agreed with me. All agree that DCEP has the best weld characteristics. It also has cleaning action that DCEN doesn't have.
(...)
Its called welding theory, and my theory is that I've used DCEP on every dang thing from high-rises, nuclear weapons facilities, dams, and a dam power house! Not once did I ever use DCEN. Like the journal that supports my theory, I say that the better weld characteristics and the two-thirds heat at the end of the rod create a force and "there is a jet action and / or expansion of gases in the arc at the electrode tip. This expansion causes the molten metal to be propelled with great speed across the arc. The molten metal impacts the base metal with greater force. This heavy impact on the base metal helps to produce deep, penetrating welds." Modern Welding 1997 Althouse, Turnquist, Bowditch, and Bowditch." Now that is exactly how I would've put it ... well, more or less.
(...)
The Hobart School of Welding's Welding Guide also supports my theory: "Electrode negative (straight polarity) often is used when shallower penetration is required. Electrode positive (reverse polarity) generally is used when deep penetration is needed."
(...)
We also conducted an experiment by dragging a 1/8-in. rod on an 11-gauge shim. DCEP burned through after one and one-half inches. DCEN did not burn through until about three and a half inches. Now that I have backed up my theory with this highly scientific experiment, I am even more convinced!
(...)
I have no problem accepting that DCEN penetrates better in gas tungsten arc welding (GTAW). That's a whole different ball game because of the tungsten electrode. You can't apply much heat on the smaller diameter tungsten rods with DCEP because it melts away the tungsten. You can output more heat with DCEN, allowing for more penetration.
On some machines, a switch is available for changing from AC to DCEP or DCEN; on others, the leads have to be changed. ..."

[Otto Nobedder]

Alexa makes several good points I'll have to study closer...

6013 is designed (alloy and flux) to function well in AC mode, 50 or 60 Hz. My assumptions are based on this "balanced" design. I won't argue with the information he provides; The experience and citations are beyond rebuke. However, the gentleman he cites never welded anything at a nuke plant or hydro powerhouse with 6013. At a nuke plant, the lawn crew probably doesn't use 6013 on mower decks...

Steve S

[echosixmike]

Over in Euroland, they use buttloads of 6013; it's weird. I believe they manufacture their 6013's for different performance than ours.

I use 6013's for thin stuff where I'd probably otherwise use MIG. I don't see anything wrong with that, use the right tool for it's suitable purpose. It's all nonstructural stuff. It's better than glue, tape and bailing wire
S/F....Ken M