Hello. I am a newby at welding. It is a new hobby for me -- I enjoy learning and I enjoy watching something get created. My first issue is a question I have that comes from welding together a small trailer -- I am making it out of 2X2 1/8" wall tubing. I am welding a 2X2X 1/8" angle cross members and to the top edge (on top of the 2X2) to capture the boards when I put on the deck. It occurred to me that I don't know the answer to what may be a very basic question -- should I weld 100% of the edge where the angle meets (lays on top) of the 2X2 tube? Is that the proper way to do it? Is that gross overkill? I have no frame of reference. I have seen welds where things were welded for 2 or 3 inches and then a space (maybe 6") then another 2 or 3 inches and so on. I have welded a great deal more than that on both edges where the tube and the angle meet -- but I am still curious what is "normal" on something like this. Is there any rule of thumb for weld length?
I am using an AC stick welder -- current is set at 90 amps -- 3/32" 7018AC rods and the metal where it meets to be welded has all been ground clean.
Thanks in advance for any help.
1. Hopefully this trailer is not for use on the highway or above speeds of 20mph around your property.
2. "Stitch welding" (weld/space/weld/space/etc.) is used to reduce heat warp and where great strength is not necessary. It is also used on cheap products to save assembly time and materials. If welding to hold vital components together then more welds may be necessary.
3. It is hard to visualize exactly what you are describing. Perhaps you could take a photo or two and post them. But more strength on a trailer is better than less strength in general.
If you mean where the 2" stringer face crosses the 2" frame face then it is a major structural component and should be welded anywhere metal touches metal. There may be a vital need for gusseting as well. That is where photos would help. A trailer is not a thing to fool around with for the novice...or even some of those with experience.
2. "Stitch welding" (weld/space/weld/space/etc.) is used to reduce heat warp and where great strength is not necessary. It is also used on cheap products to save assembly time and materials. If welding to hold vital components together then more welds may be necessary.
3. It is hard to visualize exactly what you are describing. Perhaps you could take a photo or two and post them. But more strength on a trailer is better than less strength in general.
If you mean where the 2" stringer face crosses the 2" frame face then it is a major structural component and should be welded anywhere metal touches metal. There may be a vital need for gusseting as well. That is where photos would help. A trailer is not a thing to fool around with for the novice...or even some of those with experience.
jwmacawful
- jwmacawful
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building a trailer for use on public roads maybe at high speeds is an ambitious project for someone who needs to ask welding advice. we each of us had to learn no matter how much experience we have now. none of us was born with the knowledge that we now have. maybe you should start with something that doesn't have the potential to be a major disaster. the life you save may be your own. but if you insist, how about some details like the welding process, what kind of wire, what kind of machine (please say you're not using a 110 mig machine). stuff like that would help.doug42190 wrote:Hello. I am a newby at welding. It is a new hobby for me -- I enjoy learning and I enjoy watching something get created. My first issue is a question I have that comes from welding together a small trailer -- I am making it out of 2X2 1/8" wall tubing. I am welding a 2X2X 1/8" angle cross members and to the top edge (on top of the 2X2) to capture the boards when I put on the deck. It occurred to me that I don't know the answer to what may be a very basic question -- should I weld 100% of the edge where the angle meets (lays on top) of the 2X2 tube? Is that the proper way to do it? Is that gross overkill? I have no frame of reference. I have seen welds where things were welded for 2 or 3 inches and then a space (maybe 6") then another 2 or 3 inches and so on. I have welded a great deal more than that on both edges where the tube and the angle meet -- but I am still curious what is "normal" on something like this. Is there any rule of thumb for weld length?
I am using an AC stick welder -- current is set at 90 amps -- 3/32" 7018AC rods and the metal where it meets to be welded has all been ground clean.
Thanks in advance for any help.
- Otto Nobedder
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Hey, welcome, doug42190,
Since you're already well involved in your project, I'll forego the cautions you've read, and get to the meat of the matter.
From an engineering standpoint, you should not weld ACROSS the top or bottom of a longitudinal frame member, but only parallel to... If you MUST weld across, the member to be welded should have an elliptical profile, so the weld is not a straight line.
It sounds like you've coped the cross-angle to sit atop the main rails. Good practice says only weld the edges, not where it crosses the main rail.
Steve S
Since you're already well involved in your project, I'll forego the cautions you've read, and get to the meat of the matter.
From an engineering standpoint, you should not weld ACROSS the top or bottom of a longitudinal frame member, but only parallel to... If you MUST weld across, the member to be welded should have an elliptical profile, so the weld is not a straight line.
It sounds like you've coped the cross-angle to sit atop the main rails. Good practice says only weld the edges, not where it crosses the main rail.
Steve S
Wow. I did not mean to start any sort of panic! It is a utility/garden trailer -- not a highway trailer. I guess I should have been more specific. The intended dimensions are 3'X5' -- with a 2X6 PT floor/deck. Critical load will be maybe 500 pounds of gravel or dirt -- I am not an engineer nor am I a fabricator. I am just trying to learn a new skill and make something useful in the process.
The 2X2 tubing makes the rectangular frame -- the 2X2 angle makes the cross members (the center 2 provide support for the wood deck and provide bolt mounting and the end 2 capture the wood and provide a place to drill and bolt the wood to) as well as angle which I am welding to the top of the 2X2 rectangular frame (down each side) for the wood deck to ride in. I understand the cross bracing and the 2X2 frame itself needs to be welded 100% for structural reasons -- my question was one of curiosity about attaching the side 2X2 angle on top of the 2X2 tube frame. I was just curious if I needed to weld 100% of that joint -- or could it just be stitched? I apologize if I have made an error in asking that question -- I didn't want anyone to fear for their life. But if I don't know I am prone to ask -- I am obviously not trying to pass myself off as experienced with a welder. I am just trying to learn.
As I said in my original post, I am using a Lincoln 225 Amp AC welder set at 90 amps with 3/32" 7018AC rods. No wire, no MIG.
Thank you.
Doug
The 2X2 tubing makes the rectangular frame -- the 2X2 angle makes the cross members (the center 2 provide support for the wood deck and provide bolt mounting and the end 2 capture the wood and provide a place to drill and bolt the wood to) as well as angle which I am welding to the top of the 2X2 rectangular frame (down each side) for the wood deck to ride in. I understand the cross bracing and the 2X2 frame itself needs to be welded 100% for structural reasons -- my question was one of curiosity about attaching the side 2X2 angle on top of the 2X2 tube frame. I was just curious if I needed to weld 100% of that joint -- or could it just be stitched? I apologize if I have made an error in asking that question -- I didn't want anyone to fear for their life. But if I don't know I am prone to ask -- I am obviously not trying to pass myself off as experienced with a welder. I am just trying to learn.
As I said in my original post, I am using a Lincoln 225 Amp AC welder set at 90 amps with 3/32" 7018AC rods. No wire, no MIG.
Thank you.
Doug
- Otto Nobedder
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Dont' sweat it, Doug,
There've been several topics on "homebuilt trailers", and we would prefer to give too much advice over too little.
What you've read will apply should you decide to build any type of trailer.
Steve S
There've been several topics on "homebuilt trailers", and we would prefer to give too much advice over too little.
What you've read will apply should you decide to build any type of trailer.
Steve S
Weldmonger -- Steve,
Thank you for your reply and insight. If I have read your first response correctly, when it comes time to weld the spring hangers onto the bottom of the frame, I should only weld the longitudinal sides -- fore and aft, if you will, and not weld the ends of the spring hangers -- which would go across the longitudinal. Is that correct? Given the load of a trailer -- and especially one that has brakes on it -- that seems inadequate to hold an axle. Mine doesn't have brakes, but I a thinking out loud about this concept. Maybe it has more to do with cross members, etc. and not so much with spring hangers. My assumption is that welding across the longitudinal would make a weak spot -- but I really don't know that -- I promise, I am not an engineer -- just someone who thinks too much some times.
I will try to find that section you mentioned on trailer building.
Again, thank you.
Doug
Thank you for your reply and insight. If I have read your first response correctly, when it comes time to weld the spring hangers onto the bottom of the frame, I should only weld the longitudinal sides -- fore and aft, if you will, and not weld the ends of the spring hangers -- which would go across the longitudinal. Is that correct? Given the load of a trailer -- and especially one that has brakes on it -- that seems inadequate to hold an axle. Mine doesn't have brakes, but I a thinking out loud about this concept. Maybe it has more to do with cross members, etc. and not so much with spring hangers. My assumption is that welding across the longitudinal would make a weak spot -- but I really don't know that -- I promise, I am not an engineer -- just someone who thinks too much some times.
I will try to find that section you mentioned on trailer building.
Again, thank you.
Doug
- Otto Nobedder
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Quite correct... and if it seems "inadequate", you need to examine how the loads are distrubuted. In any condition other than "impact" (read that as "potholes") the loads are vertical. The frame does not care if it's sitting still with an elephant jumping on it, or moving 70 MPH with an elephant jumping on it. Oddly, braking has the same effect as the elephant, only at the front spring shackle, the elephant is pushing down, while at the rear, he's "up".
The primary strength in the frame is the height of the "web", the vertical part of your 2X2 tube, with it's upper limit set by the compressive strength of the "top" of the tube, and the tensile strength of the "bottom". Any weld across the top or bottom of the tube introduces a distortion and a heat affected zone. That's why repairs or splices to a frame are usually done with oval- or diamond-shaped doubler plates, to prevent the induced stress from being in a straight line, making a weak point like a crease in a piece of paper.
For your lawn-use trailer, with a designed 500# max load, none of this is going to be critical at all, and you have artistic lisence to build it how you want it. I went into detail, because anybody searching "trailer" may come upon this, and if he has a 32' low-boy in mind, the design becomes more critical.
To qualify myself on the subject, I'll mention that a major chemical supplier has many semi-trailer tankers in it's fleet, with an empty weight of 47,000#, riding on a subframe I designed (modified, actually, for an air-ride suspension). I say this to assure you I'm not an "armchair wikipedia engineer".
Steve S
The primary strength in the frame is the height of the "web", the vertical part of your 2X2 tube, with it's upper limit set by the compressive strength of the "top" of the tube, and the tensile strength of the "bottom". Any weld across the top or bottom of the tube introduces a distortion and a heat affected zone. That's why repairs or splices to a frame are usually done with oval- or diamond-shaped doubler plates, to prevent the induced stress from being in a straight line, making a weak point like a crease in a piece of paper.
For your lawn-use trailer, with a designed 500# max load, none of this is going to be critical at all, and you have artistic lisence to build it how you want it. I went into detail, because anybody searching "trailer" may come upon this, and if he has a 32' low-boy in mind, the design becomes more critical.
To qualify myself on the subject, I'll mention that a major chemical supplier has many semi-trailer tankers in it's fleet, with an empty weight of 47,000#, riding on a subframe I designed (modified, actually, for an air-ride suspension). I say this to assure you I'm not an "armchair wikipedia engineer".
Steve S
Steve,
I do not want you to think for even a second I doubted what you said -- I am trying to simply understand something that is so much more complex than I ever imagined. I have seen the google blogs about guys asking how to build that huge Gooseneck or lowboy -- scares the bejezuss out of me. Some 20 years ago I left driving trucks -- for sometime I was an owner operator but before I quit all together I drove for Pilot Oil Co -- a traditional style tanker. I cannot imagine the engineering that went into any other style or type of trailer -- it is truly mind boggling. I was thinking about the stress of braking, true, because it did not dawn on me about the other stresses as you described them. I am truly humbled. Makes me have a new found appreciation and fear for all of the trailers I see on the road everyday with lawn mowers and boats around here. Since we don't have a trailer inspection law in North Carolina, there is plenty of junk on the road.
Again, thank you for taking the time to care enough to give me a real answer -- the first couple of replies I got seemed to be unfriendly -- even to the point of sounding critical for asking the question without taking a minute to explain (especially the second one who suggested I include the machine, wire size, hoped it wasn't a 110 MIG, etc. -- I felt a little irritated because I was in the stick welding section and I put all of the relevant information in my first post)-- if I had known the term "stitch" I would have used it -- not what I expected from a site with the reputation of this one. I understand I am poking my head around someone elses professional domain -- I am a psychotherapist and if someone asked me a question that I thought was genuine about depression or anxiety or schizophrenia, etc. I would offer, as you did, an intelligent answer that was geared to the perceived level of understanding that the enquirer had.
I am not trying to start any type of fight -- so I will be going now. I will cruise this site but likely I won't risk posting again. I appreciate your time and your wisdom.
As a last thought, an empty tanker at 47,000 pounds must me one of those that is used to haul compressed gas or something like that -- I have hauled powdered cement (or concrete -- can never remember which is which) and multiple oil tankers and none of them came close to 47,000 empty -- that would have only allowed 33,000 payload which would have only been about 5,500 gallons -- so that trailer you designed must be one heavy duty rascal!
Thank you.
Doug
I do not want you to think for even a second I doubted what you said -- I am trying to simply understand something that is so much more complex than I ever imagined. I have seen the google blogs about guys asking how to build that huge Gooseneck or lowboy -- scares the bejezuss out of me. Some 20 years ago I left driving trucks -- for sometime I was an owner operator but before I quit all together I drove for Pilot Oil Co -- a traditional style tanker. I cannot imagine the engineering that went into any other style or type of trailer -- it is truly mind boggling. I was thinking about the stress of braking, true, because it did not dawn on me about the other stresses as you described them. I am truly humbled. Makes me have a new found appreciation and fear for all of the trailers I see on the road everyday with lawn mowers and boats around here. Since we don't have a trailer inspection law in North Carolina, there is plenty of junk on the road.
Again, thank you for taking the time to care enough to give me a real answer -- the first couple of replies I got seemed to be unfriendly -- even to the point of sounding critical for asking the question without taking a minute to explain (especially the second one who suggested I include the machine, wire size, hoped it wasn't a 110 MIG, etc. -- I felt a little irritated because I was in the stick welding section and I put all of the relevant information in my first post)-- if I had known the term "stitch" I would have used it -- not what I expected from a site with the reputation of this one. I understand I am poking my head around someone elses professional domain -- I am a psychotherapist and if someone asked me a question that I thought was genuine about depression or anxiety or schizophrenia, etc. I would offer, as you did, an intelligent answer that was geared to the perceived level of understanding that the enquirer had.
I am not trying to start any type of fight -- so I will be going now. I will cruise this site but likely I won't risk posting again. I appreciate your time and your wisdom.
As a last thought, an empty tanker at 47,000 pounds must me one of those that is used to haul compressed gas or something like that -- I have hauled powdered cement (or concrete -- can never remember which is which) and multiple oil tankers and none of them came close to 47,000 empty -- that would have only allowed 33,000 payload which would have only been about 5,500 gallons -- so that trailer you designed must be one heavy duty rascal!
Thank you.
Doug
Doug-
I don't think any disrespect or belittling was meant by anybody's post on this thread as I re-read them. They were more cautious in nature. Since you stated that you were a "newby" it would be expected that some people would be concerned about one of the first projects being a home-built trailer. Plus, there was a lack of details about the use of the trailer or the engineering involved.
Stitch welds were explained in post #2. It was not intended to be condescending but rather informative. I will abide by any third party decision of the intent of that portion of my post or any other portion for that matter.
This is probably the most welder/weldor-friendly forum on the Web. As such, don't take any of the posts to indicate that you are unwelcome or unappreciated. Give this forum a try again and I predict that the generally positive nature of the members will show through.
I don't think any disrespect or belittling was meant by anybody's post on this thread as I re-read them. They were more cautious in nature. Since you stated that you were a "newby" it would be expected that some people would be concerned about one of the first projects being a home-built trailer. Plus, there was a lack of details about the use of the trailer or the engineering involved.
Stitch welds were explained in post #2. It was not intended to be condescending but rather informative. I will abide by any third party decision of the intent of that portion of my post or any other portion for that matter.
This is probably the most welder/weldor-friendly forum on the Web. As such, don't take any of the posts to indicate that you are unwelcome or unappreciated. Give this forum a try again and I predict that the generally positive nature of the members will show through.
- Otto Nobedder
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I agree wholeheartedly with GWD. I don't think any of the earlier posts were meant to suggest anything but caution, and get straight to the facts, as was understood. Were it known in the original post your trailer was for lawn and garden use, rather than highway, the earlier posts would have been far less about caution, and more about execution. I hope you'll re-read the posts with that in mind, and realize we were only concerned for the ultimate safety of a product that may be on the road from a self-described low-experience weldor.
I'd expect to be cautioned, were I on a forum themed on your profession, if I were to propose a solution to my depression, and not differentiate between SAD and major depression (best analogy I could come up with...
).
I, too, also did not mean to imply I thought you doubted my qualifications to speak. Rather, I wanted to assure you of them, so you'd have confidence in the recommendations I gave.
BTW, those 47K# trailers only carry 7400# of cargo... The service is liquid hydrogen, and the empty weight is mostly devoted to safe containment.
Steve S
I'd expect to be cautioned, were I on a forum themed on your profession, if I were to propose a solution to my depression, and not differentiate between SAD and major depression (best analogy I could come up with...
).I, too, also did not mean to imply I thought you doubted my qualifications to speak. Rather, I wanted to assure you of them, so you'd have confidence in the recommendations I gave.
BTW, those 47K# trailers only carry 7400# of cargo... The service is liquid hydrogen, and the empty weight is mostly devoted to safe containment.
Steve S
jwmacawful
- jwmacawful
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doug, first; if you want to hang with the welder's you gotta have a thick skin and second, you must be talking about some other forum that's got a reputation. just kidding! i read your post 2x but didn't see the part about the buzz box so gimme a break i'm not a rocket scientist just a lowly welderdoug42190 wrote:Steve,
I do not want you to think for even a second I doubted what you said -- I am trying to simply understand something that is so much more complex than I ever imagined. I have seen the google blogs about guys asking how to build that huge Gooseneck or lowboy -- scares the bejezuss out of me. Some 20 years ago I left driving trucks -- for sometime I was an owner operator but before I quit all together I drove for Pilot Oil Co -- a traditional style tanker. I cannot imagine the engineering that went into any other style or type of trailer -- it is truly mind boggling. I was thinking about the stress of braking, true, because it did not dawn on me about the other stresses as you described them. I am truly humbled. Makes me have a new found appreciation and fear for all of the trailers I see on the road everyday with lawn mowers and boats around here. Since we don't have a trailer inspection law in North Carolina, there is plenty of junk on the road.
Again, thank you for taking the time to care enough to give me a real answer -- the first couple of replies I got seemed to be unfriendly -- even to the point of sounding critical for asking the question without taking a minute to explain (especially the second one who suggested I include the machine, wire size, hoped it wasn't a 110 MIG, etc. -- I felt a little irritated because I was in the stick welding section and I put all of the relevant information in my first post)-- if I had known the term "stitch" I would have used it -- not what I expected from a site with the reputation of this one. I understand I am poking my head around someone elses professional domain -- I am a psychotherapist and if someone asked me a question that I thought was genuine about depression or anxiety or schizophrenia, etc. I would offer, as you did, an intelligent answer that was geared to the perceived level of understanding that the enquirer had.
I am not trying to start any type of fight -- so I will be going now. I will cruise this site but likely I won't risk posting again. I appreciate your time and your wisdom.
As a last thought, an empty tanker at 47,000 pounds must me one of those that is used to haul compressed gas or something like that -- I have hauled powdered cement (or concrete -- can never remember which is which) and multiple oil tankers and none of them came close to 47,000 empty -- that would have only allowed 33,000 payload which would have only been about 5,500 gallons -- so that trailer you designed must be one heavy duty rascal!
Thank you.
Doug
- Otto Nobedder
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jmacawful,
The second post he referred to was deleted by the poster, who may have realized he was on the wrong topic with those questions...
Steve S
The second post he referred to was deleted by the poster, who may have realized he was on the wrong topic with those questions...
Steve S
jwmacawful
- jwmacawful
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then i'll just bank that for the next time i stick my size ten in my mouf