[mArc]

Hi all,

I found an interesting, 70 year old movie on arc welding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI4bGRqG4F4

One interesting point, that was new to me, is shown at 3:22 - 3:45. The weld is started at a strong drag angle, then mostly done at a small or zero drag angle, and the last few inches are completed at a push angle, to counter the effects of arc-blow.

What are your experiences with this? Do you agree with the technique shown?

(The welder uses 6010 - I wonder what the technique would imply for 6013.)

While doing some fillet welds yesterday, I noticed that the arc became louder towards the end, and didn't want to deposit nicely in the corner even though I tried to keep the electrode close. The welder who was supervising me, said that it sounded as though I'm burning a hole - but afterwards, we didn't find a hole. Was I experiencing arc-blow?

Cheers,
Mark

[AKweldshop]

Hard to say, I've never noticed arc blow ever, welding DC with 7018. and I don't agree with the change in rod angle in the least, and you for sure don't wan't to change the rod angle with 6013 , medium drag, nice and hot works. Personally you will never find a 6013 in my shop ,I'll never use them on anything . 7018 is the way to go for anything worth welding , though I don't do any open root stuff which you use 6010 , but all I use is 7018 and 8018 and some 7024. I don't understand why they call 6013 a beginner rod , 7018 is pretty simple to run to start and run for me , 6013 is a crap rod and has no structural value whatsoever . AS to the video , those old welding machines are so old style,they were more prone to poor arc quality ,these new Lincoln Invertec's have such a smooth DC arc and good rods out of an oven, I've never had a problem , again , just my experience , good luck , John

[noddybrian]

Wow - why do you guys hate on the 6013 so much - there are good and bad batches / manufactures of any type of rod - I've welded with some really nice 6013 & had some absolute crap 7018 - but I don't judge either on that experience - if a weld is critical then yes I use 7018 mostly if it's stick welded & that includes open root which is achievable to test quality with that rod alone - 6010 is almost unheard & unavailable outside of the US - but where it is used as a root rod on quality tested welds it will not produce significantly stronger welds than a 6013 - they have the same yield strength & this is often above that of the parent metal so this myth of their low strength is not really true if used in context - also many 7018 rods are useless if not stored correctly & absorb moisture very quickly once out of a rod oven - for hobby use or general non critical repairs a 6013 can have laid around some time if the atmosphere is not too humid & still weld OK - even if wet they dry out well to a useable condition - how many hobby welders have a rod oven or can afford to keep one switched on 24/7 ? I can accept you've had some bad stuff - but I would'nt put people off trying them - a good 6013 is a very tolerant rod for beginners & experienced welders alike & will also run at quite low open circuit voltages on AC transformers - there must still be guys out there welding who do not have a DC welder.

[AKweldshop]

use 6013 if they work for you, just my experience with them and I don't use them ,I love my fresh 7018 and that's all i will use . I didn't mean to insult anyone about their 6013, if you can do a good job with them by all means use them , I've just had problems with them ,weld failure ETC . good luck , John

[plantwelder]

I do start a fillet with more drag angle then reduce it as soon as I start moving. I do the same with 6013, 7018, stainless, whatever. As for 6013's, I've welded farm machinery and heavy equipment with them for over 35 years and never had a failure.

[jwmacawful]

a good welder can utilize any rod. each type of rod has it's own applications and i have no problems with the 6013 rod. it's my first choice for welding railings but i myself would never think of using it for something like pipe although i have seen some amazing looking pipe welds with 6013 which re-enforces my first point.

[AKweldshop]

okay guys , lets talk structural welding for a minute , you wouldn't use 6013 to weld pressure vessels or heavy steel structures and , I'm sure there's no such thing as a v groove structural welding test ,you know 1/4 with a backing strap using 6013 . But sure lots of people use 6013 for general mild steel fab work , but when it comes to big stuff like a trailer hitch and your reputation is hanging on one weld, I'd use a 7018 , right ? correct me where I'm wrong , thanks , John

[plantwelder]

okay guys , lets talk structural welding for a minute , you wouldn't use 6013 to weld pressure vessels or heavy steel structures and , I'm sure there's no such thing as a v groove structural welding test ,you know 1/4 with a backing strap using 6013 . But sure lots of people use 6013 for general mild steel fab work , but when it comes to big stuff like a trailer hitch and your reputation is hanging on one weld, I'd use a 7018 , right ? correct me where I'm wrong , thanks , John

Over here I've seen a lot of structural work done with 6013. As I said I've used 6013 on some heavy stuff, like glueing the bottom back into a Cat scraper bowl. My reputation is still intact. Unless I'm missing something, a weld done properly with 6013 is just as strong as one done with 6010? 60,000psi UTS? Have to say, I do prefer 7018's on out of position work.

[jwmacawful]

okay guys , lets talk structural welding for a minute , you wouldn't use 6013 to weld pressure vessels or heavy steel structures and , I'm sure there's no such thing as a v groove structural welding test ,you know 1/4 with a backing strap using 6013 . But sure lots of people use 6013 for general mild steel fab work , but when it comes to big stuff like a trailer hitch and your reputation is hanging on one weld, I'd use a 7018 , right ? correct me where I'm wrong , thanks , John

john; if you were to spend your entire career welding shiny new trailer hitches in the shop you are 100% correct. every welding rod has it's own pourpose as i'm sure you're aware of. to flip the coin so to speak you wouldn't use that same 7018 rod to tack Q decking on a 40 story high rise would you?

[Otto Nobedder]

Tensile stength is a trade off. A high tensile weld is somewhat more brittle/less flexible than a lower tensile weld.

I built a whole lot of light structure with 6013 (more years ago than I care to think about), using a Lincoln tombstone. These were floating docks on a large, busy lake, and had to have flexibility built in to tolerate huge wakes. In this application, 7018 could well have introduced (weak) stress points, by having less elasticity than the 6013.

As stated before, each rod to it's purpose...

Steve S

[AKweldshop]

thanks for all the responses , I hope were all still friends after this thread , but , I'll still use my 7018 and you can use your 6013 , and both of us will still get our paycheck , so to all of you , have fun , John

[noddybrian]

@ AKweldshop.

Hey - no offense taken - it's all good - it's funny how most other countries have good quality 6013 that work adequately when used in context but have never even seen a 6010 let alone run them - I guess there is a marked difference between products used across the world ( and some of the worst 7018 I ever had came in a Lincoln box though it's anyones guess where they came from ! )- but don't worry in the unlikely event of getting a gig at a nuclear facility or building the next generation space shuttle the 6013 will stay at home for odd job repairs !

[Illdrag1320]

in pipe we use 6010 root with 7018 fill and cover..i had been given a a bundle of 6013 and used it around the house on some side projects and have had mixed result,.it seems like they run good when fresh out of the tin but i left a couple rods out on the bench when i was done and used them a week later and they ran like fidos butt but i was able to get them to run enough to make a decent weld.

[Otto Nobedder]

Kris,

While you're coming in a bit late on this conversation, you make a great point.

We've only discussed rod ovens and general dryness for low hdrogen rods. Your comment about 6013 laying around a bit suggests dry flux is good for 6013, even though the oven is not needed to maintain low-H qualities. With 6010 responding better with ambient moisture, some may not make the disconnect between cellulosic fluxes and silicate fluxes. I can see a rod oven or other drying method being of benefit for 6013.

I'll have to ask our UK and dominions members who regularly do pipe with 6013 how they maintain their rods.

Steve S

[noddybrian]

Well rod care in my part of the world is kinda haphazard - you hope they've been stored correctly where you buy them from - but truth is most are just sitting on pallets in a warehouse - most people know they should be kept dry but that is not always practical or cost effective for infrequent users though many keep them indoors near hot water cylinders etc - I try to buy them in the foil vacuum packs if possible - in my workshop I have an old electrical switchgear cupboard that already had a heater in to prevent moisture effecting components or causing insulation flash over - this is not very hot - but keeps them long term without using too much electricity effectively - I have a small "heated quiver" as it's sold here which will maintain rods but is not hot enough to re-dry them if left out - when I used to weld alot on site I had shelf for rods within the engine cowling - slightly above the exhaust manifold ( but leaving enough space for cooking "manifold diner" ! just remember the aluminum foil )

[MinnesotaDave]

Tensile stength is a trade off. A high tensile weld is somewhat more brittle/less flexible than a lower tensile weld.

I built a whole lot of light structure with 6013 (more years ago than I care to think about), using a Lincoln tombstone. These were floating docks on a large, busy lake, and had to have flexibility built in to tolerate huge wakes. In this application, 7018 could well have introduced (weak) stress points, by having less elasticity than the 6013.

As stated before, each rod to it's purpose...

Steve S

I would have to disagree with you Otto. If by elasticity, you mean ductility, then 7018 has a much better rating.

Here is an "electrode selection chart" from AWS with the various rankings:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7nefd4qzav4e0 ... 0chart.jpg

Edit: changed the link - this one should work:)

[plantwelder]

@ AKweldshop.

Hey - no offense taken - it's all good - it's funny how most other countries have good quality 6013 that work adequately when used in context but have never even seen a 6010 let alone run them - I guess there is a marked difference between products used across the world ( and some of the worst 7018 I ever had came in a Lincoln box though it's anyones guess where they came from ! )- but don't worry in the unlikely event of getting a gig at a nuclear facility or building the next generation space shuttle the 6013 will stay at home for odd job repairs !

Since joining here it does look like our (UK) 6013's are a different kettle of fish to what our colleagues over the pond are using. There are bad 6013's, like the ones you buy 10 in a packet from the automotive spares shop, but if you buy Murex, Esab, Bohler, they're a quality product. I'll have to learn to post pictures.

I have an open box of Bohler in my garage, at least 15 years old, run perfect on my inverter with no drying.

We're all still friends. I hope

[jwmacawful]

i have several boxes of lincoln 6013 that were ancient when i arrived at my present shop 25+ years ago. the cardboard boxes are falling apart with dry-rot but the bare ends of the rods are still shiny with few rust spots. weld ok.

[Otto Nobedder]

Tensile stength is a trade off. A high tensile weld is somewhat more brittle/less flexible than a lower tensile weld.

I built a whole lot of light structure with 6013 (more years ago than I care to think about), using a Lincoln tombstone. These were floating docks on a large, busy lake, and had to have flexibility built in to tolerate huge wakes. In this application, 7018 could well have introduced (weak) stress points, by having less elasticity than the 6013.

As stated before, each rod to it's purpose...

Steve S

I would have to disagree with you Otto. If by elasticity, you mean ductility, then 7018 has a much better rating.

Here is an "electrode selection chart" from AWS with the various rankings:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7nefd4qzav4e0 ... 0chart.jpg

Edit: changed the link - this one should work:)

I don't object to the chart, but we're talking apple and oranges.

Ductility refers to tolerance to stretching... The definition of tensile strength. Elasticity refers to it's ability to return to it's original state.

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

Tensile stength is a trade off. A high tensile weld is somewhat more brittle/less flexible than a lower tensile weld.

I built a whole lot of light structure with 6013 (more years ago than I care to think about), using a Lincoln tombstone. These were floating docks on a large, busy lake, and had to have flexibility built in to tolerate huge wakes. In this application, 7018 could well have introduced (weak) stress points, by having less elasticity than the 6013.

As stated before, each rod to it's purpose...

Steve S

I would have to disagree with you Otto. If by elasticity, you mean ductility, then 7018 has a much better rating.

Here is an "electrode selection chart" from AWS with the various rankings:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7nefd4qzav4e0 ... 0chart.jpg

Edit: changed the link - this one should work:)

I don't object to the chart, but we're talking apple and oranges.

Ductility refers to tolerance to stretching... The definition of tensile strength. Elasticity refers to it's ability to return to it's original state.

Steve S

I don't consider the rod ratings as apples to oranges actually. Considering 7018 has better ratings for yield strength, tensile strength, % elongation and charpy V-notch - I have a hard time considering it not having better "elasticity" as well.

One of the four must cover it? But, I've been wrong before...

I'm not railing against 6013 however, I like it just fine for general stuff (7014 I like even better). I also would have no problem using them for what you were building. Heck I even made slip on bucket "tractor forks" with 6013 this summer when I was in a hurry (ran out of mig wire on the second tack). http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?28 ... highlight=

[Otto Nobedder]

If you have a challenge distinguishing between tensile strength and elasticity, I suggest you don't go bungee jumping.

Metallurgy and mechanics are apples and oranges.

I can weld chinese rebar with 11018, and weaken the structure for the brittleness of the interface. I can weld 4130 airframes with 6010 and crash an airplane.

Each rod to it's purpose.

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

If you have a challenge distinguishing between tensile strength and elasticity, I suggest you don't go bungee jumping.

Metallurgy and mechanics are apples and oranges.

I can weld chinese rebar with 11018, and weaken the structure for the brittleness of the interface. I can weld 4130 airframes with 6010 and crash an airplane.

Each rod to it's purpose.

Steve S

Where are you placing the ratings for yield strength and % elongation?

They would seem to be about the mechanics.

[Otto Nobedder]

How do you fit torsion and shear into yield-strength and % elongation?

Not all loads are tensile, and dependent solely on the analysis of tensile strength.

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion. It's not often someone challenges me to explain myself, and you've caught me a little off guard. In the end, I'll learn a little something just in figuring out how to properly express what I mean.

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

How do you fit torsion and shear into yield-strength and % elongation?

Not all loads are tensile, and dependent solely on the analysis of tensile strength.

Steve S

Geez now we gotta do math and stuff lol

[Otto Nobedder]

Damn, that was quick... I was adding an edit to my last post when you posted...