[Bob E]

I have just moved into a new place without a garage. There are a couple of sheds about 70' from the house. One of them has a 20 amp 120 volt circuit, but no 240. So tonight I've been sitting here calling around asking for estimates on what it will cost to run 240 out there, and browsing online at the local big box stores for prices on everything I would need to do it. Then I started to think with the money I could get from selling the two transformer welders that I have (Lincoln AC-225, Century AC-DC 295-250), combined with what it would cost to run the 240 out to the shed, I could buy a nice used engine driven welder.
Now I’m not sure which way to go, run the 240 for the transformers or get an engine drive?

[AKweldshop]

How much work you gonna be doing??

Long term property lease??

You gonna be getting more 240 equipment???

Do you also do mobile work with an engine drive??

[rake]

I ran power out to my shop for about $300

I used 100 amp aluminum mobile home service cable (100 ft.)
A 100 amp breaker in the main panel
and a 125 amp sub panel (your sub panel is allowed to be 125% of the breaker feeding it)
and a tube of de-ox

Now, before all the pundits rant on about the evils of aluminum
It's legal and still code approved. It's now 10 years in and still
working fine. One month and one year after the install I re torqued
the connections and checked that there was no visible corrosion
or loss of de-ox. With proper installation it works just fine.

[noddybrian]

So what's wrong with aluminum cable ? the power companies here use it extensively - most of the " big boys " stuff is made of it ( 33kv ) - they don't have many problems with it - except pikeys trying to steal it !

Back to the OP - I would advise against an engine drive unless you urgently need one for it's intended purpose - 70 feet is not far to run a cable - if you got lucky you may find a 2nd hand bit that will do the job - unless you intend having a bunch of big power users on at once probably 30amps on 240 will suffice so I don't see it being that expensive - maybe if it's a short term rented place it would be different - an engine is fine out on a job site running all day - but it's going to be sat out in your yard in all weather waiting for some scum to steal it - if your in the shed & just want a couple of tacks every so often while cutting - building something it's got to be running the entire time - chewing through gas which you got to pay for & store somewhere - unless it's miles from anyone the neighbors are going to hate on you for the noise - I could go on but you get the idea - the convenience of just being able to weld at the flick of a switch is worth it - maybe if it was 700 or 7000 feet away the engine drive makes sense - & as AK touched on if you want other equipment the 110 really limits you - good size chop saws have 2000 plus watts - plasma cutters etc all want 240volts - maybe you want a bit of heating / fume extraction / lighting - it all adds up bottom line I'd bite the bullet & get 240 in there.

[Bob E]

How much work you gonna be doing??
Not a whole lot. Mostly just repair and hobby work, but I would like to start welding a lot more often
Long term property lease??
Yes, but may resell if the price is right.
You gonna be getting more 240 equipment???
If I chance across a good deal on a nice air compressor and had 240 I would probably buy it, but it's not something I'm looking for. A good air compressor would open the door for a plasma cutter...
Do you also do mobile work with an engine drive??
No, but if I had one I may start looking for mobile work.

The main panel is full, I would rather not double tap the oven breaker (50 amp), and I would like to run a 70 amp breaker to cover the full range of the Century. So, I'm looking at either a larger main panel (would require an electrician) or a sub panel at the main panel (could probably do myself). I don't foresee the need for the extra space beyond running 240 out to the shed.
Second hand copper I've been looking but I'm pretty sure the meth heads will fight to the death for that stuff. I've never seen aluminum house wire or extension cord for sale before, but I guess I wasn't looking for it either.
Theft and higher operating costs (gas/maintenance) were my two biggest concerns of going with an engine drive

[kermdawg]

Nothing is wrong with aluminum cable, it's just sized differantly than copper cable because it's not quite as good a conductor.

If you run a 70amp breaker be sure you size your cable correctly. It's dangerous to run a cable that is to small to trip the breaker when it heats up.

I ran a 50 amp breaker with 10 guage cable over 100 feet to my garage from the other side of my house. Never had any problems. But I never welded over 150 amps with that machine either.

Remember wiring used strictly for welding machines is sized differantly and has it's own appendix in the NEC codebook, because your not drawing that amperage constantly.

Remember the advantages of an engine drive...you can weld anywhere But, the maintenance and higher operating costs don't really make since if its not making money for you.

[Bill Beauregard]

I've installed hundreds of services underground. Only a few were in copper. Aluminum is cost effective. The down side is corrosion. Where exposed to air it must be treated with corrosion inhibiter. I like Noalox from Ideal. Follow directions.

[Otto Nobedder]

An equivalent product is "NO-OX-ID" from Sanchem, inc.

I use it on ALL electrical connections, as I live near salt-water.

Steve S

[kermdawg]

Thanks for mentioning that guys I forgot about the corrosion inhibitor.

[Bob E]

I probably wouldn't use aluminum... I was thinking either 8/2 wire into an exterior outlet on the house with enough 8/3 SO cord to get to where I want or 8/2 buried in conduit to the shed with a sub box. Cost would be pretty close. Using the extension cord would an easier install and a pain in the neck every time I want to weld. Of course if I do sell the place the wire would most likely stay buried and the cord would move with me. Either should handle 70 amps at 20% duty cycle and over 30 amps continuous.
I'm still on the fence. AC electricity is a little outside of my comfort zone, I have no training for it. If I feel the need to hire an electrician I'll be going engine drive.

[Bill Beauregard]

Don't be so resistant to using an electrician. Something like 10% of us are nice people. All kidding aside, I typically give free advice to do it yourselfers. The exception is when I don't have confidence the DIY enthusiast will do it right. Then I worry about liability. If you rent, it's you should worry about liability. After an incident, jury decisions often blame anyone who has installed code violations. In 44 years as an electrician I've never seen DIY work that didn't include code violations.
As for Al vs copper I usually use 2-2-2-4 URD made for mobile homes protected in grey schedule 40 1-1/2" PVC schedule 80 above ground.It is quite cost effective.

[Bill Beauregard]

Don't be so resistant to using an electrician. Something like 10% of us are nice people. All kidding aside, I typically give free advice to do it yourselfers. The exception is when I don't have confidence the DIY enthusiast will do it right. Then I worry about liability. If you rent, it's you should worry about liability. After an incident, jury decisions often blame anyone who has installed code violations. In 44 years as an electrician I've never seen DIY work that didn't include code violations.
As for Al vs copper I usually use 2-2-2-4 URD made for mobile homes protected in grey schedule 40 1-1/2" PVC, schedule 80 above ground.It is quite cost effective.

[Bob E]

I would much rather hire somebody who knows what they are doing, I just don't want to spend close to a grand in order to use a couple 100 buck welders. That's why I'm thinking engine drive.

[kermdawg]

If your going to hire somebody to work on your house(this applies to alot of things) educate yourself on what the bulk of the material is going to be and go source it yourself-anyone that has to buy material for the job is going to charge you a premium to offset his own costs and add to his profit.

Plus, the more you know about the installation, the easier you'll be able to spot someone trying to rip you off. You may not know how to do the installation, but you DO know you don't need 000 cable for your welder.

All in all, electricity is the one thing I don't mess with unless I'm comfertable with it....it's very dangerous.

Alright, off to practice welding around a corner blindfolded in a mirror with one hand tied behind my back!

[Bill Beauregard]

Everybody always assumes an electrician is going to "rip them off". As an electrician I don't worry too much if someone complains about the bill. I know I'm charging enough to make a living, not more. Some customers feel that any charge is too much.
The thing I protect most carefully is my reputation. I can't have anyone accuse me of anything dishonest. My father was an electrician, I am an electrician, my son is an electrician, all in the same place. 51 years in the same business requires the trust of my customers. I for one wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that trust.
As for mark up, you expect Home Depot to mark up product you buy. Why is it wrong for me to mark up. In that mark up is value. Without study or research on your part I provide the correct materials delivered to you at the right time. I've never seen a customer buy the correct materials for a job. The truth is they need me to provide materials for the same reason they need me to do the work. At 44 years I better know what's needed, and how to install it! No one I'm aware of has ever saved money buying their own materials. My time is wasted coming to the job to find wrong materials, I then have to refuse to install wrong materials, wait for right materials to be purchased. There is a P.I.T.A. factor in the labor rate. Preferred customers come first. The guy who's going to annoy me trying to beat me out of a few pennies comes when I'm out of work.

[kermdawg]

Bro I started out doing service plumbing. I know all about it. I dealt with the exact same thing weather I was working for a company or doing it on the side. I've dealt with all those things and then some.

What I was trying to say was if the customer can educate himself and actually buy the right things by doing a little bit of research and shopping around to find a good price or a sale on the materials (or maybe he has a friend that works at a supply house) he can save a good bit of money. As a serviceman, if I can actually go to a job that already has the materials and all your paying me for is labor, I'm happy.

I wasn't implying you were trying to rip him off or anything. I was just trying to say the more educated a person is about what their wanting done, the easier it is to spot the unscrupulous person that IS trying to rip them off( and lets be honest bro, we know theres alot of em out there). And yes, they can save money if they can find a wholesale house or maybe even someone off craigslist that has some left overs from another job. Home depot/Lowes/any big box store is a RIPOFF.

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding

[Bill Beauregard]

Let me reiterate, you won't save money. The people who already have the correct materials I hand a screwdriver. If you know what you need, you don't need an electrician. You need a screwdriver. Hundreds of times I've arrived to do a job, to find a pile of non compatible materials. Often I've found a breaker panel with all the wrong breakers, or no local source, or a craigslist panel from a flood, or a pile of NM cable, no longer legal to use. There are those capable of buying materials. They waste their money paying an electrician. Trust me on this, buying from me is cheaper than buying from Home Depot.

[kermdawg]

I'd respectfully disagree with you bro. When I ran the 50 amp service to my garage, I went to the supply house and bought the breaker, outlet, and cable myself. Easily saved 25 percent on the materials from buying at home depot. I researched what I needed myself, and had an electrician do it because I didn't have the tools to run the cable through my vaulted ceiling and across my entire house. Paid him 100 bucks to run the cable and wire up the recepticle and breaker. He even told me if he would've went to home depot and bought the material he would have charged me around 300 dollars total. Paying him 100 bucks and 150 dollars at the parts house, I still saved 50 bucks, and didnt have to worry about screwing something up and killing myself or starting my house on fire. I felt good about having an experienced person doing something I wasn't comfertable with, and he made money and did a good job for me. It was win win for both of us.

I COULD have done it myself, but I would have had to spend 100 bucks in tools I'm probably never going to use again. There goes any savings from doing it myself. It also would have took me twice as long.

There are plenty of listings on craigslist for new materials as well, you just gotta shop around. Lots of times people order extra or too much and want to get rid of it to get some of their money back. It's not all used junk or salvage.

[Wobulate]

Bob E,

To add to the discussion I thought I would mention the power in my shop, and how I made a small mistake. Most of the time I have no problem with incoming AC with one exception. When using my Plasma Cutter(PC) to cut >=1/2" plate steel I set it to 40 Amps output (maximum). When planning my shop power upgrade (to 240 @ 60A) I did forget to include the simultaneous operation of the PC (at maximum) and the starting input current (=Full Load Amps) required by my Air Compressor
(5 HP/15.8 CFM @ 175 psi/80 gal/28 FLA @ 230 V/1 Phase).

That said, I found a way around the problem, allow the Air Compressor to fill then shut off the automatic pressure sensor. Now I can cut for along time (not sure how long, will check soon). Obviously thin metal will require much less PC cutting current, and therefore will not require any adjustment of the Air Compressor and the task sequence.

Just food for thought,
WOB

[Bill Beauregard]

You could install a relay with a second current sensing relay to automatically stop power to air Compressor when plasma is in use. Generator systems use this technology to prevent overload of generators.

[Wobulate]

Thanks Bill, I will give that idea some thought.

WOB