How to hold a tight Arc, without Arc Control or Fine Tuning?

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:38 pm

How can I hold a tight Arc on a constant current (CC) DC machine, having a preset lincoln “drooper curve”, without having access to Arc Control or DIG functions and without the ability to Fine Tune the machines Drooper curve?

7018 seems to run fine, since I am basically burying the arc and keeping it there. Yeah, I know. Learn how to weld, how to manipulate the voltage by varying the arc length. The thing is, I want a tight arc and long pretty beads.

It's a Lincoln Tombstone, obviously, with the DC rectifiers. I have no advanced arc control features and 1/8" 6010 on a tight arc constantly sticks unless I choose to run a longer arc or crank up the amps. I find it difficult when am used to having arc control, where I am able to run fewer amps and not overheat the electrodes, but I no longer have access to a more modern and more adjustable machine.

Even with an old pro redface machine, I have read that fine tuning the amperage also adjusts the drooper curve of the machine, giving some ARC control. What if you couldn't adjust squat?

I really can't even find any videos of anyone welding properly with the DC version of the Tombstone, so I am wondering if it was simply heavily marketed towards beginning welders?

Sometimes it works pretty well, other times everything looks like monkey poop. I constantly adjust my ground and have even wondered if the sun beating down on the machine has been causing it to overheat. When the workpiece is hot, the 7018 runs even better. I still can't figure out the 6010, but with a cold piece, nothing works very well. On a hot piece, the 6010 works like crap. Like I said, sometimes the 6010 is OK, but mostly no. The 7018 is mostly working fine, much better on a hot piece than on a cold one.

I can't figure it out, just trying to learn and I don't think the people who are stick welding with the new, more advanced machines can fully understand my struggling and the Lincoln AC Buzz Box folks are just used to long-arcing, because they have to do that with AC. I don't want all the splatter from doing that and I am using DC.

Braehill · Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Only thing that comes to mind is the Arc Pig. Check it out at arcpig.com

Len

AKweldshop · Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:22 pm

Well,
Sorry to here your "beginner grade" welder isn't performing to expectations....
You positive you have good, new, fresh rods??
The rods are just as important quality wise, as the welder.

~John

nyc7018 · Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:36 pm

My first machine was a Lincoln Tombstone AC/DC and it was all i had for months. I was having good results with the 3/32 7018 but the 1/8 6010 would only run decent in the flat position. I used the 85 amp setting and the 90 amp setting for 6010, sometimes even 95 amps... and any lower and it would stick and just not run as intended.

After much research and one broken machine ( i learned about duty cycle the hard way haha) i came to the conclusion that 6010 is a rough rod for the basic machines. Its nothing like the smooth as silk puddle of 7018. 6010 is a violent rod meant to penetrate. It is the definition of seek and destroy haha. I definitely could lay down a halfway decent whip and pause bead, but that was the best i'd get.

Can it be done? Of course it can....but i found out the limitations of the basic models that these companies offer. It was a good machine for me to practice with and to learn some basics, but as i wanted better 6010 results, i upgraded machines.

nyc7018 · Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:57 pm

here are some pics of 6010 and 7018 with the tombstone. KEEP IN MIND I WAS VERY NEW TO WELDING WHEN I TOOK THESE HAHA...probably about 2 months in...

I had a welder on my job who was willing to share his time and knowledge with me and he helped to get me started. im still a beginner but I don't even care to guess how awful these would have been if he never took the time to help me. thanks Mike I owe ya brother...

: some 6010 done with my tombstone when I first got it; CAM00635.jpg (58.38 KiB) Viewed 2865 times

nyc7018 · Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:07 pm

here's some more ac/dc tombstone shots. practice 6010 flat and try to get that down first. I never got great results out of position, but then again this was my first machine and im obviously not someone who has been welding for 30 years. I'm sure otto or some of these other guys could make 6010 look good on a harbor freight 80 amp inverter haha

: 7018 weave; 643.jpg (95.28 KiB) Viewed 2863 times

: memories....; 620.jpg (39.29 KiB) Viewed 2863 times

: some 7018; 655.jpg (74.74 KiB) Viewed 2863 times

: some 7018 and 6010...not my best but not my worst either haha; 652.jpg (116.96 KiB) Viewed 2863 times

nyc7018 · Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:14 pm

I didn't mean to hijack your thread... just wanna let ya know that it is possible to run 6010 with that machine, and without a lot of spatter. Take some pics of what your 6010 beads are looking like and im sure these guys can help you out

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:33 pm

I also have pretty good results with 3/32" 7018, but I agree that 1/8" 6010 only runs decently in the flat position, and if the machine is not being taxed. This is exactly what I am experiencing and I am just running beads and dipping my scrap in a water bucket, so it doesn't get too hot. 85-95A is the same for me. 85A and I still stick like crazy. 105A, the next setting above 95A available on DC, basically just smokes my rods after a short weld. I hope I have not screwed the machine up, I try to let it breathe. I have had it completely apart and back together and even thought that perhaps I had accidentally switched the DC connections. I tried running 6010 on DCEN and it seemed to burn the same, with just slightly less penetration. It wasn't any smoother running on DCEP which left me scratching my head. The rods aren't perfect, they are Hobarts, but should be fine for practicing and the flux is not chipped off. I have a picture of one I smoked at 105A and saved, so my posts wouldn't be as boring. 105A was too hot, but I was getting so pissed-off. I hate to constantly stick the rod due to the tight arc I am trying to hold.

nyc7018 wrote:My first machine was a Lincoln Tombstone AC/DC and it was all i had for months. I was having good results with the 3/32 7018 but the 1/8 6010 would only run decent in the flat position. I used the 85 amp setting and the 90 amp setting for 6010, sometimes even 95 amps... and any lower and it would stick and just not run as intended.

After much research and one broken machine ( i learned about duty cycle the hard way haha) i came to the conclusion that 6010 is a rough rod for the basic machines. Its nothing like the smooth as silk puddle of 7018. 6010 is a violent rod meant to penetrate. It is the definition of seek and destroy haha. I definitely could lay down a halfway decent whip and pause bead, but that was the best i'd get.

Can it be done? Of course it can....but i found out the limitations of the basic models that these companies offer. It was a good machine for me to practice with and to learn some basics, but as i wanted better 6010 results, i upgraded machines.

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:45 pm

I need to post some pics too, but I am embarrassed, as I have a lot of problems with straight lines and poor eyesight. I don't know if I will ever be able to be a welder. but I just keep trying until someone I trust finally just tells me to give it up.

I think those beads look good, I can't make my beads straight like that. I am also most concerned with 6010, like this. I wish I had a welding mentor. I went to school for welding, but they didn't care much at my school.

nyc7018 wrote:here are some pics of 6010 and 7018 with the tombstone. KEEP IN MIND I WAS VERY NEW TO WELDING WHEN I TOOK THESE HAHA...probably about 2 months in...

I had a welder on my job who was willing to share his time and knowledge with me and he helped to get me started. im still a beginner but I don't even care to guess how awful these would have been if he never took the time to help me. thanks Mike I owe ya brother...

CAM00635.jpg

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:59 pm

You are not hijack'n my thread, don't worry. This is what I wanted, what can be done with one of these AC/DC tombstones. In school, I managed some higher level welds, but I had a modern machine to work with. With this sucker, I am constantly long-arcing or what I consider long-arcing, just to keep the electrode lit. The middle of the bead to the end usually looks ok. It's like the rod has to get burning good. This is after 5-6 sticks to get the bead running and sometimes jerking the entire plate off the table, while trying to unstick the rod. So frustrating ...

nyc7018 wrote:I didn't mean to hijack your thread... just wanna let ya know that it is possible to run 6010 with that machine, and without a lot of spatter. Take some pics of what your 6010 beads are looking like and im sure these guys can help you out

MinnesotaDave · Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:00 pm

I've owned a couple old tombstones and still have a Century AC/DC buzz box in the garage - the DC amps are too low so I always ended up running them on AC.

In my opinion you'll be a lot happier running 7014 1/8" rods on AC while learning than you are currently while trying to run the DC rods.

I used 7014, almost exclusively on AC, for many years before I upgraded machines.
I still use them sometimes and they are so smooth it feels like cheating

Switch to some fun rods to run and enjoy your welder

Edit: I forgot, if your machine does not like 6010, switch to 6011 and you'll have an easier time of it (they run on AC or DC)

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:05 pm

I am trying to practice for a structural welding test and want to use 6010 and 7018, exclusively. If I was actually trying to build something for myself, I would probably try some 7014, but it wouldn't help me for a welding test and that's why I'm not using it.

MinnesotaDave wrote:I've owned a couple old tombstones and still have a Century AC/DC buzz box in the garage - the DC amps are too low so I always ended up running them on AC.

In my opinion you'll be a lot happier running 7014 1/8" rods on AC while learning than you are currently while trying to run the DC rods.

I used 7014, almost exclusively on AC, for many years before I upgraded machines.
I still use them sometimes and they are so smooth it feels like cheating

Switch to some fun rods to run and enjoy your welder

Edit: I forgot, if your machine does not like 6010, switch to 6011 and you'll have an easier time of it (they run on AC or DC)

MinnesotaDave · Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:15 pm

mbmalone wrote:I am trying to practice for a structural welding test and want to use 6010 and 7018, exclusively. If I was actually trying to build something for myself, I would probably try some 7014, but it wouldn't help me for a welding test and that's why I'm not using it.

Makes sense, but then I'd recommend you sell the buzz box and grab a good used Dialarc or a similar machine.
Mine only cost $225 and welds excellent. I've seen them as low as $150 and up to $500 for good quality used machines.

Then you'll have something you can weld all day with that is putting out excellent arc characteristics.

I don't recommend people dump a welder and upgrade lightly because it's a financial burden - but practicing for a career takes huge amounts of rod and a Dialarc or Idealarc can be had cheap and weld continuously all day.

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:32 pm

I tried the 105A DCEP setting with these 1/8" Hobart Electrodes, but they turn into Zebra's real quick. I burned 2-3 inches before I Zebra'd this one. Doesn't it look like a Zebra? I saved it for a quick photo tonight. It happens every time. 3/32" 7018's burn fine until the last 1/2-1/4 of the rod, then turn into floppy red spaghetti at 105A, so I don't run them there. The 7018's were Lincoln's, btw. The 1st half of those rods runs great at that setting. Anyway, I haven't really been having any problems with 7018's with the welder at a lower setting. Mostly I've been struggling with 1/8" 6010's. Sometimes I can burn a good one, but then it gives up the ghost and I haven't touched a thing on the welder, even if I let the welder cool down and if I have or haven't dipped the piece in a bucket of water.

For the most part, I have been running at either 90A or 95A. I still don't know what is ideal, as it doesn't seem consistent?
I have 85, 90, and 95A choices available before the Zebra'ing 105A choice and 85A seems to be a a real Peta for me. I have done it, but veeeery carefully and only after plenty of sticking and going slow. With the slightest bump it the road, I know I am going to stick it. On this machine !!!

mbmalone · Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:56 pm

I wish I did have a Dialarc. I had been looking for an IdealArc 250 for a long time. I never seem to find any cheap deals around here and I just don't have the money. I actually have this lincoln welder on permanent loan from my brother.

This is what I see locally. I just about never see a DC machine, unless it's a high dollar SA-200 or something.
http://batonrouge.craigslist.org/search ... ery=Welder

Maybe Otto has been buying the nice (cheap) welders as soon as the popup locally on Craig's list?
I think he's located somewhere outside New Orleans and I'm just in Baton Rouge.

MinnesotaDave wrote:
mbmalone wrote:I am trying to practice for a structural welding test and want to use 6010 and 7018, exclusively. If I was actually trying to build something for myself, I would probably try some 7014, but it wouldn't help me for a welding test and that's why I'm not using it.
Makes sense, but then I'd recommend you sell the buzz box and grab a good used Dialarc or a similar machine.
Mine only cost $225 and welds excellent. I've seen them as low as $150 and up to $500 for good quality used machines.

Then you'll have something you can weld all day with that is putting out excellent arc characteristics.

I don't recommend people dump a welder and upgrade lightly because it's a financial burden - but practicing for a career takes huge amounts of rod and a Dialarc or Idealarc can be had cheap and weld continuously all day.

MinnesotaDave · Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:11 am

Good chance you'll have to drive a bit for a deal I'd imagine.
My big Airco tig/stick was $225 but couple hours away, no-brainer at that price

Been a long time since I was stationed down your way, think I left just before England AFB closed (early 90's)
Good food as I recall

AKweldshop · Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:26 am

Well mate.
Here's your problem.
Those rods are junk.
Go buy a 10lb (or 50lb) of Lincoln fleet wood.

I've burned a lot of 801O, same stuff, and believe me, they go bad quick.

Those rods shouldn't be peeling like that.
I've run 5/32 8010 at 250amps dcen gouging frame and bed bolts off, and your nowhere near that.
I run a fair amount of 1/8 8010 on 1/8"-1/4" steel, at a 100-110amps.
Whip and pause.
Now, granted, I was using one of the best stick welders on the planet...

Now,
Funny thing here.
I had a friend and his family over for dinner this afternoon, and he mentioned he had just bought a new Lincoln 125/225 tombstone.
He's never welded before, so I offered to show him a little of the basics.
He said he'd bring his welder with him.
Later this week when he gets back to town, we'll do it.
So,
I'll do a good review on it, with a bunch of pics...

Sound good?

John-

mbmalone · Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:54 am

I will really be looking forward to your review of this welder. I have never fired up a new one and the guy that sold this one to my brother said he never could get it dialed in properly, so he just cut the leads off and sold it, as is. hmmmm???

I worked on it after that, checked everything I could. New leads, ground clamp, taken completely apart and worked on by this amateur. I honed all the connections clean. I worked on those switch taps a lot and used lots of dialectic grease. I would think it would be working well, but I have never used a new machine or had a real welder test the machine out. I have been trying hard not to blame the machine on my lack of skill manipulating the rod properly, but it is not for lack of trying.

I cannot find a single video on youtube by any kind of decent welder showing anything this welder has welded, or my search abilities are not working at all. Still, it's supposed to be the best seller of all time. .... so why no youtube videos of it's DC welding abilities ?? Maybe I just wasn't searching right or something?

The rod didn't look like that before I welded

They don't zebra that way at lower amperage's. Well, they do turn a little black and I remember a few rods catching on fire up their length, but I can't remember which those were? I'll post some new pics tomorrow of how they are looking at 85, 90 and 95A, as those are pretty much my only amperage choices with this welder. Mostly, they were just going Zebra towards the end. I made them weld anyway. An Olympic bicyclist could still get a workout peddling around an old heavy rusty piece of junk bicycle from the 50's. I was just practicing, but admit this sticking has got to stop before I lose my mind.

We did use Lincoln fleetwood in school, but I was using a Miller XMT-304 with Arc Control which probably could have welded these crap electrodes, anyway.

AKweldshop wrote:Well mate.
Here's your problem.
Those rods are junk.
Go buy a 10lb (or 50lb) of Lincoln fleet wood.

I've burned a lot of 801O, same stuff, and believe me, they go bad quick.

Those rods shouldn't be peeling like that.
I've run 5/32 8010 at 250amps dcen gouging frame and bed bolts off, and your nowhere near that.
I run a fair amount of 1/8 8010 on 1/8"-1/4" steel, at a 100-110amps.
Whip and pause.
Now, granted, I was using one of the best stick welders on the planet...

Now,
Funny thing here.
I had a friend and his family over for dinner this afternoon, and he mentioned he had just bought a new Lincoln 125/225 tombstone.
He's never welded before, so I offered to show him a little of the basics.
He said he'd bring his welder with him.
Later this week when he gets back to town, we'll do it.
So,
I'll do a good review on it, with a bunch of pics...

Sound good?

John-

AKweldshop · Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:03 am

My friend,
Hobart rods are junk to begin with, except a few certain alloy rods.
Please,
Head to a local welding store, and buy some premium Lincoln fleet wood rods.
I guarantee you will be amazed.

Those rods you have are old and dried out.

That's my advice for you right now.

nyc7018 · Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:37 am

AK is right. Not all rods are created equal. Cheap machine + low to mid range rods = problems... break loose and get some 5p or 5p+ from Lincoln. You will be amazed. The 5p+ has been engineered to be a more user friendly 6010. Try it out. Buy the 1/8 and give it a go.

And post pics of your welds not your rods haha! These guys can be very helpful. Ive watched them give countless opinions and help us beginners out.

Dont worry if theyre not the best. In my 1st 6010 pic you can also see the back side of my first 6010 open root attempt. And it couldnt be any worse

We all started somewhere and even these guys giving advice weren't born with a stinger in their hands. Everyone is here to help. Post them pics brotha

MinnesotaDave · Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:12 am

AKweldshop wrote:My friend,
Hobart rods are junk to begin with, except a few certain alloy rods.
Please,
Head to a local welding store, and buy some premium Lincoln fleet wood rods.
I guarantee you will be amazed.

Those rods you have are old and dried out.

That's my advice for you right now.

That's Fleetweld kiddo - lincoln don't make wood rods

They also make Jetweld and Ferroweld - but the super smooth one is supposed to be the Excalibur 7018

mbmalone · Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:51 am

I think I do have a few Lincoln Fleetweld 5P or 5P+. I really don't think they dry out that much in Louisiana.
I am also heading over to do a little practice welding on a 1995 Hobart Champion 16 OM-741. It's in rough condition, but it runs. I have been studying how to setup the dials, as all the original markings are gone. I found photos of them and a manual. Maybe a Hobart industrial machine can run these crap Hobart rods better than the tombstone? Some of them were stuck together, so I had to squeeze the bundle a little to gently loosen them. If I had $160 for a new 50lb. can of Fleetwoods, I'd be looking for another welder on Craig's list, although I never seem to see anything in that range. I think you have to wait for an old timer to pass away and then the children get rid of their prized welders real quick, idk?

I have been concentrating on running these 6010's. The 7018's were doing ok.
I'm bringing my camera, so everyone will probably be laughing tonight.

I am going to try a higher course range (for some dig) and a lower fine amperage adjustment on the 6010's, with the Hobart. I think it's supposed to be the reverse setup with 7018's with the fine amperage adjustment up on the high side. This won't help me on the Tombstone. I have a basic multimeter, can I test something to see if it's juicing right. I tried once, but got arc flashed off the multimeter, so I must have done it wrong. The multimeter still works, luckily. It was from Cabela's and was designed for Advanced Anglers, whatever that means??

nyc7018 · Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:25 pm

Anybody who laughs at a man trying to better himself isnt worth listening to anyway...

Watch that puddle!

Also...

Watch Jody's 6010 video where hes padding beads til the cows come home. If ya already saw it, well watch it again. It cant hurt. Maybe watching the Jedi Master will bring out your inner Jody...

Good luck and take pics of everything. Make sure u clean the beads up real nice so these guys can offer some good input.

Get those beads as straight as you can but focus more on the puddle. Youll get straighter as ya burn more and more. Try and lay one straight one and then use that as a guide for the next beads

nyc7018 · Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:27 pm

Try and separate the lincoln rods from the hobarts. That should give ya a good idea if the rods are causing an issue

mbmalone · Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:45 pm

I tripped over a doorstop I had made in the past. Just to show that I had been practicing, I took a picture. This is not today's practice. I was using mixtures of rods and every little piece of rod I had left was burned, just for arc time. I know it's crap. I wasn't trying to have this critiqued. I will start a new piece, today. These were all made with the tombstone, but over different days. I would like to have my new piece critiqued and will try to take photos at different amperages for comparison. I will also show the same run with a different rod. Like a good rod and a bad rod.

nyc7018 wrote:Anybody who laughs at a man trying to better himself isnt worth listening to anyway...

Watch that puddle!

Also...

Watch Jody's 6010 video where hes padding beads til the cows come home. If ya already saw it, well watch it again. It cant hurt. Maybe watching the Jedi Master will bring out your inner Jody...

Good luck and take pics of everything. Make sure u clean the beads up real nice so these guys can offer some good input.

Get those beads as straight as you can but focus more on the puddle. Youll get straighter as ya burn more and more. Try and lay one straight one and then use that as a guide for the next beads