[Hvacr]

I have practiced for 4 to 5 hours now and here are some new pics the rods were 6011 5/64" at 68 or so amps AC. After staring at the steel for awhile there is only a modicum of improvement.however now I am convinced there is at least hope for me.

[Dirtynails]

What are you looking through as in welding helmet/lens?

[Hvacr]

What are you looking through as in welding helmet/lens?

I have a Weldcote autodarkening helmet with 4 sensors and have it set between 9 and 10. The top pic is my first attempt and the second pic is after 4/5 hours more of practice. I am trying to compare my poor welds to books and vids but it is still difficult for me to tell how and why i am doing somethings wrong. I know i need more time under the hood, but would like some critique so i don't keep practicing bad habits. The rods were 6011 and 6013, used welder with a DC + and many were done with an AC 240 volt machine set about 68 amps. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[Bill Beauregard]

I suggest you start with 6013. In flat position it works nice. Get some 1/4" plates, maybe 4 of them 6 x 6. Run your bead all the way across the plate. I think as a total beginner you're best off to lay them parallel but not touching. Turn up the heat some until they lay flatter on the surface. Find a way to prop. Steady your hand, usually a two hand grip holding your forearms close to your body helps. I often hold the rod with a gloved hand pressing the knuckle to the work until I feel heat. Make your beads as long as possible. When a coupon gets too hot set it aside, use another. When you manage a respectable series of beads looking even, with low profile, start overlapping them. Vision and a steady hand are essential. I shake badly at arms length, so I find a way to prop and steady myself. I'm old, my close up vision is failing, I need a magnifier, and more light. Fogging is a problem that must be resolved with what works for you. I once ran a very respectable vertical up bead 1/2" away from the joint. The boys still like to tell that story.

[pgk]

You'll get there, practice practice practice. Then when you think your finally getting it more practice. lol

[Hvacr]

I suggest you start with 6013. In flat position it works nice. Get some 1/4" plates, maybe 4 of them 6 x 6. Run your bead all the way across the plate. I think as a total beginner you're best off to lay them parallel but not touching. Turn up the heat some until they lay flatter on the surface. Find a way to prop. Steady your hand, usually a two hand grip holding your forearms close to your body helps. I often hold the rod with a gloved hand pressing the knuckle to the work until I feel heat. Make your beads as long as possible. When a coupon gets too hot set it aside, use another. When you manage a respectable series of beads looking even, with low profile, start overlapping them. Vision and a steady hand are essential. I shake badly at arms length, so I find a way to prop and steady myself. I'm old, my close up vision is failing, I need a magnifier, and more light. Fogging is a problem that must be resolved with what works for you. I once ran a very respectable vertical up bead 1/2" away from the joint. The boys still like to tell that story.

Bill, thanks for the suggestions. I too am older, over the speed limit, and my hand eye coordination is not as crisp as it used to be. The story about the misplaced weld made me smile, with you, not against. Good on you for not being afraid to admit it! I will find a way to steady my hands and turn up the heat. I think the bead separation is a good idea on a longer plate. I just picked up some 3/16" and 1/4" plate i am going to cut up in sections with my torch. Thanks again for the input, will always look to improve. I think in part due to my age i am in a big fat hurry to learn in 10 days what probably takes a few or more years to learn . Best, hvacr

[Hvacr]

You'll get there, practice practice practice. Then when you think your finally getting it more practice. lol

Crap, was afraid somebody was going to say that But at least you give me hope the lightbulbs will grow from dim to bright. Thanks for weighing in and the encouragement!

[Superiorwelding]

Hvacr,
I see promising improvement between the two plates. The only thing I can add to others comments is work on your consistency. Try to use those 6" plates working on your "stack of dimes" look. I remember starting with 6011 and it was a pain until I got it down decently. Keep up the great work and keep us informed!
-Jonathan

[Hvacr]

Hvacr,
I see promising improvement between the two plates. The only thing I can add to others comments is work on your consistency. Try to use those 6" plates working on your "stack of dimes" look. I remember starting with 6011 and it was a pain until I got it down decently. Keep up the great work and keep us informed!
-Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan Will do, gotta have you pros tell me whats what, left to my own i have trouble separating the wheat from the chaffe.

[Bill Beauregard]

I was stick welding at age 13. Never had the luxury of a seasoned weldor to look over my shoulder. I bought a few books. The dealer I bought my new (40some years ago) welder from took a night school course, came back worse not better. He built a bird house looked like something my sister would build.

The internet with Jody, FieldRes, Miller, Lincoln personnel, and yes Chuck E 2009, and Wyatt Swaim, together with hundreds of experts in these forums, have been a blessing of free education. I'd still like to take a course, but those available here are aimed at beginners. They set you up with abused safety gear, scratched, dirty safety glasses, a fixed shade helmet with broken head gear unsuccessfully duct taped back together, and gloves big enough for King Kong, and teach you to hold a stinger. Their budget hasn't yet allowed them to buy a welder, so you have to make sound effects with your mouth.

[Bill Beauregard]

Oh, Grab the electrode 3 inches from the tip with your spare hand. You will be steadier. Remember to let go when it gets hot and short.

[Hvacr]

Oh, Grab the electrode 3 inches from the tip with your spare hand. You will be steadier. Remember to let go when it gets hot and short.

Yup, had no idea how quickly heat travels through my welding gloves and how long the heat stays on/in the gloves! I got one of Jodys tig fingers to help, but then still couldnt get my "steady" tigger finger out of the way without breaking the weld
Your story sounds very similar to an older gent i just got off the phone with, he owns a company called Virginia Carolina Steel here in Norfolk, Va. He is older than us (85) sharp as a tack, and said he learned to weld like u did. He supervised 65 welders years ago and one of the old timers said to him: so u want to learn how to weld, well come on here, he promptly stuck this gent (Sid) in a corner of the shop, gave him a stick, hood and arc welder and said, run a weld across this plate and don't quit until u get it right. That was all the "instruction" Sid had. He went on to get certifications too! He has dug out some 1/2" plate for me to practice on and offered advice to me that was never given to him. BTW i have some family in Vermont, West Rupert and Pawlet, those green mountains are just fantastic. I own a small HCAVR company here, its an albatross around my neck, trying to sell it is difficult, but i will cause i am moving to Vermont! I happen to love the cold and lived near Buffalo, NY so snow is not an unidentified flying object to me. Thanks for the advice!

[Bill Beauregard]

I know about 20% of the people in Pawlet, 10% of the people in Rupert. Beautiful country, valleys are wider, lots of farm land.

[Bill Beauregard]

I know about 20% of the people in Pawlet, 10% of the people in Rupert. Beautiful country, valleys are wider, lots of farm land.

I never got into refrigeration in deference to my friend who taught refrigeration at night. He turned 65 and moved to Ireland in January. Now I wish I paid more attention in refrigeration school. I took the course 3 of 4 years.

[Hvacr]

I know about 20% of the people in Pawlet, 10% of the people in Rupert. Beautiful country, valleys are wider, lots of farm land.

I never got into refrigeration in deference to my friend who taught refrigeration at night. He turned 65 and moved to Ireland in January. Now I wish I paid more attention in refrigeration school. I took the course 3 of 4 years.

Since you know electrical, i bet u know Bud Coolidge in Pawlet. I taught HVACR at our local community college for a while part time until i got so busy i had no time. I would be glad to help you learn anything you want to know or, have the time to learn. I loved teaching. Hvacr is an interesting and challenging field, you have to know quite a bit about high voltage and low control voltages, thermodynamics, air flow (air flow knowledge is king in this trade), psychrometrics, a little carpentry and plumbing, and water flow. I picked the trade in 1997 and I continue to learn everday day. Lemme know if i can help you with anything. I started hvacr just before I turned 40.

[Bill Beauregard]

I know Bud, we cross paths occasionally, but more so with his older brother Howard. We have to go to code school a weekend for license renewal. I've never seen Bud there, but Howard has been a regular. Likely it has more to do with what month you come up for renewal. Come to think of it I haven't seen Howard lately. I wonder if he retired.

Refrigeration has always been an interest for me. I used to install economizer systems in walk in coolers. In the early 90s they sold like hotcakes in Massachusetts. Construction wasn't doing well in VT, dairy farms had been our backbone customers until then. They were on a trend toward decline, Danby went from 70 dairy farms shipping milk in my youth to 4 now. Those surviving now are shifting to organic milk.

Buying groceries forced me to work out of state, a long commute. At the time I figured I should know enough to not cause harm. I went three winters to night school for refrigeration. The teacher has become a good friend, good enough he asked me to administer his estate. Now he's moved to Ireland I assume I won't be called upon for that duty. I'd hate to make my first trip to Ireland to bury a corpse.

Since you mentioned it, I'm wiring an 8500 square foot manufacturing facility, they will build wind turbines. The owner is very receptive of new technology. He has chosen Mitsubishi Heat pumps for heat. He has bought 10 18000 BTU residential units plus a 100,000 Btu wood furnace. He's very relaxed, if it's too cold to work, we'll take a day off! I've never charged a system with refrigerant before. I call Mike O'leary he does it. I don't think he'll come from Ireland. Where should I begin?

[Hvacr]

[

Since you mentioned it, I'm wiring an 8500 square foot manufacturing facility, they will build wind turbines. The owner is very receptive of new technology. He has chosen Mitsubishi Heat pumps for heat. He has bought 10 18000 BTU residential units plus a 100,000 Btu wood furnace. He's very relaxed, if it's too cold to work, we'll take a day off! I've never charged a system with refrigerant before. I call Mike O'leary he does it. I don't think he'll come from Ireland. Where should I begin?[/quote]

Bill, i will be glad to help you with this project. I will assume these are mini split ductless systems. Each outdoor unit is precharged with enough R-410A refrigerant for 15 feet of line set. The crucial things with these systems are tighening the flare nuts tight enough to prevent leaks. nitrogen pressure testing and performing a very deep vacuum to bring the system down to something lower than 500 microns. These units have very small line sets and unless the line set length is exceptionally long between outdoor unit and indoor section you can count on adding just less than .5 ozs of R-410A per foot of one of the copper lines (measured one way only). Have the units been installed yet? I am coming up there on the 12th of April if you can wait and I would be glad to meet with you and spend a day or two helping you figure this project out and going through the complete installation of a unit or two If that does not work for you we can figure out all the steps via email. My email address is: quality@sweetlandshvac.com put in the subject line Vermont mini splits. If you would like to do this through email vs in person I will be asking you for information I will need to get started We install quite a few mini splits both ducted and non-ducted here so I am sure we can get you where you need to be. Or like i say I will be up there on the 12th of April and I will be driving my service van so I will have what we need with me. Lemme know if and how you would like my help, either way is fine with me.
Best,
Hvacr

[Otto Nobedder]

Hvacr,

While this probably not critical for your application, I've discovered through the school of hard knocks on high-vacuum (<5 micron) systems, you will get the system much drier by pulling to 20,000 microns (20 torr/mmhg), holding 30 minutes, breaking the system with dry nitrogen, and then pulling to (in my case) below 20 microns.

Do you ever practice this?

(By way of explanation, I work on high-vacuum vessels in the liquid hydrogen industry.)

Steve S

[Hvacr]

Hvacr,

While this probably not critical for your application, I've discovered through the school of hard knocks on high-vacuum (<5 micron) systems, you will get the system much drier by pulling to 20,000 microns (20 torr/mmhg), holding 30 minutes, breaking the system with dry nitrogen, and then pulling to (in my case) below 20 microns.

Do you ever practice this?

(By way of explanation, I work on high-vacuum vessels in the liquid hydrogen industry.)

Steve S

Otto Nobedder (love that name, very darn clever) You are right for our application it is not necessary to pull down farther than 500 microns although it is always better to pull down farther. We do something similar to what you describe, we call it a triple evacuation or a deep vacuum. We pull down to the 20,000 just like you, break the vacuum with nitrogen, pull down to 5000 microns break with nitro again and finish the vacuum as low as we can go. On true refrigeration (walk or reach freezers for ex.) the deeper vacuum is much more important, as ANY moisture will freeze up at the metering device and cause a wax like build up which will ruin any cooling effect quickly. In residential and light commercial cooling we have a liquid line filter drier that will capture any small amount of water that is still in the system after reaching the 500 micron level. in the HVACR world our pumps are two stage and when only hooked to a short piece of copper with a fitting for the micron gauge the pumps are only rated to reach down to 50 microns with fresh oil in the pump. Given the fact that our set of gauges have rubber reinforced hoses that are somewhat permeable it is difficult to get below 300 microns on any split system. We use lots of nitrogen to flush out, purge while brazing and pressure testing. Your industry must have much more exacting requirements. I don't know anything about hydrogen systems, much more advanced than what I work on.....is there any oil in the systems you work on such as we have in our system compressors? What type of vacuum pump is used? Our vac pumps have either mineral oil in or polyolester oil as they are both hygroscopic, esp. the polyolester and capture the moisture being evacuated from the system.

[Braehill]

Hvacr,
Steve works on liquid Hydrogen trailers (as I watch one unloading right out my window) that have a vacuum pulled on the annular space between the inner and outer tank, think Thermos bottle. They come with the refrigeration on the inside at -424F. His goal will always be 0 microns in a perfect world.

We use a water cooled and water sealed vacuum pump and Nitrogen as the carrier to evacuate trailers for Hydrogen gas at my plant.

Len

[Bill Beauregard]

Hydrogen is transported as a gas? Don't you need a lot of trailers?

[Braehill]

It's transported as a gas and as refrigerated liquid. As a gas we compress it to 2700# in 34" long 22" round tubes, each trailer has 10 or 11 tubes and they hold around 120,000 to 140,000 SCF of gas. The net weight on a 140,000 cubic foot trailer is 240#. The trailer weighs 64,000#.

The plant supplies a pipeline to an AK Steel plant that uses up to 1.5 million cubic feet a day and we can make up to 1.7 million, so we fill trailers with the surplus. To get a perspective, we use about $4500 worth of Natural Gas a day and 11,000 gallons of water. We are a small plant in comparison to the ones supplying the Gulf Coast pipeline, they have plants that can make as must in an hour as we do all day.

Len

[Hvacr]

We use a water cooled and water sealed vacuum pump and Nitrogen as the carrier to evacuate trailers for Hydrogen gas at my plant.

Len[/quote]

Len, the coldest interior space i have ever worked in was a walk in ice cream freezer, at -20 F. It was a july 90+ F day here and i was bundled up looking like the michelin man. I could only work inside for 15 minutes max, then have to come out and warm up my gear and me. Lo and behold the pronlem came down to brazing fluz, the installer must have gobbed it on the pipe and eventually it found its way inside one of the metering devices and plugged it up solid. In order to get it that cold inside the freezer the refrigerant used had a vapor temperature of -38 F.
I always wondered how these liquified "gases" were transported, sort of a tube in shell design, makes sense. Our vacuum pumps are much different, hand held, filled with oil, plugged into a 115 volt circuit and pull about 6 CFM. They are about the size of two short loaves of bread stacked on one another. We only use about 90 cubic feet of nitrogen during an average residential installation! Had i known how much you guys use i would have bought stocks in nitrogen!

[Braehill]

Hvacr,
I just took catalyst out of a converter in the plant that had a Nitrogen purge on it since it was decommissioned in 1986 and it's a vessel about 4" round and 10" tall, that's a lot of Nitrogen. 10 CFH for over 29 years, that's insane. We have constant purges on most of the compressors and process piping and we use about 125,000 scf of Nitrogen a day.

We had one day this winter that it got to -20 here and I had to work for a few hours outside thawing out critical analyzers to keep the plant running, that's cold.

My younger son took HVAC in vo-tech and I have a recovery unit for Freon on the shelf in the garage, and two 3 cfm vacuum pumps @ my brother's house. I've charged plenty of A/C units on trucks and cars but I've never done any outside of that.

Len