[olek]

Hello

I am learning how to use 7018 actually, different from the 6013 I have been mostly burning (plus some 99 Ni on iron, but that is another story I am "advanced beginner, very dedicated, since 45 days almost no day without some exercice , I did burn about 800 electrodes so to say

7018, I like the clear view of the puddle, but not the fragility when you stick

I seem to understand that : 1 you create the "puddle" , then
2 as soon it is large enough you move a little the electrode out so it does not stick,
3 then you come back (immediately), make a short arc, and begin to pull/attract the puddle from its edge, looking for the size you obtain to regulate the speed,
I did find that only that way I could obtain a very short arc about 1,5 mm , the arc is almost not visible. Not too much slant (more 80 than 70) so the bead does not grow up , and the gas shield is still efficient.
Eventually a little zig zag (is a little turning allowed ?) First I did stop and go (until the puddle have grown enough) but the bead is not straight enough on its edges (may be I should only go slower)

If I did allow a longer arc, even well tense, I had a tendency to stick often, may be because it gives too much heat to the electrode so the metal flow too fast . What do you think ?

My goal is to be capable of making thin beads, with minimum height (so to weld with 3 4 beads in angle for instance)**Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

I use 30 arc force and 20 or 30 hot start (more does not seem to agree with the graphite start)

Not too much problems with restart after a little filing or using a martyr
*I did cook the electrodes then store them in very dry box at 16 17% relative moisture, (silicate bags) they seem to burn regularely that way

Thanks for your tips I will appreciate them

[olek]

https://goo.gl/photos/9XowodvphxfFpNAG9


a few stringers, only the last I did use a little manipulation

can someone correct me looking at the pics ? thank you

[Poland308]

Well they look pretty good for someone who's only been welding a short time. The beads are fairly even. That will get better with more practice. There are a lot of pin holes visible in the surface. Grind down into those welds to see if the holes go all the way through. Pin holes are probably from the very dirty/contaminated metal your working with, but could also be a sign of long arcing, bad angle, or bad welding rod. I.e. Cracked off sections of flux, or oil, or water soaked.

[olek]

Thank you, comments appreciated

I would tend to think that I did not keep the puddle protected enough ( may be a slightly longer arc than I wished too ).
It happened on some beads at the behinning of the job then at the end I did not have those holes ( may be because I added a little slant to the electrode)

Anyway I try to have a very short arc, may be even shorter than the ones I see on jody's videos. (Almost in the puddle).
Is it a good idea ?

Best regards

Those are 48.00 esab , not cooked yet but I opened the box 3 days ago and I store them in a bag with sillicate pouches , it reduce a lot the humidity.

[Farmwelding]

Where did you get the material from? If it is what I think it is(I'll wait to see what it is first though) I would grab some flat bar of some sort probably 1/4" thick. I think some of the best practice I've done is what I call a boat anchor. You can use 4 pieces of flat bar that are 1" wide and cut them 12" long and make 4 t-joints. For your first stick welding though-not awful. I'm in high school myself and watch others starting stick welding whose beads after 50 hours are worse than that. The only thing that will get you better is just dropping the hood and melting some rod, so keep burning. And just for my curiosity, what machine are you using?

[Poland308]

Anyway I try to have a very short arc, may be even shorter than the ones I see on jody's videos. (Almost in the puddle).
Is it a good idea ?


Those are 48.00 esab , not cooked yet but I opened the box 3 days ago and I store them in a bag with sillicate pouches , it reduce a lot the humidity.

Yes you will feel the rod dragging a little as you go along.

And that should be fine for your storage of rod.

[olek]

Sorry double posting

Regards

[olek]

Hello

@Weldingfarm : Thanks for the anchor tip. I did make some yet .(but not with T joints, more L joints , maay be I miss something)
I was short of flat bars and took an old piece of scrap that was painted, but I did clean the paint on the side I wanted to weld (to bare metal).
New steel is expensive here so I looked for alt solutions, gained access to a scrap pile from the town's metal workshop.
I will look for more adapted steel.

You mean the welding machine ? It id a good 200 A DC inverter "semi pro" quality . A French brand , GYS

@poland308 thanks , I did reduce to 10% the arc force feature, as I do not see how to use it. It interferes with what I do and I suspect is send too large amount of weld at once, that mean a tendency to stick more easily with arc force (dig) than when it is very low. Plus undercuts.
I suppose that function have its use out of preventing sticking, but I noticed that I have it on at all times when I am dragging at the edge. So the piwer regulation is not the real one.
I have to understand how to use that feature advantageously.

Btw the steel is soft steel but the first square piece welded in the pics comes from an ornemental forge made piece.

Thanks again , gentlemen

Regards

[olek]

Anyone could give me some ideas on why if I have the "arc force/dig " function at 40% I tend to stick more easily than at 10%

I thought that it is an "anti stick" system, that add power if my electrode touches the puddle so it reduce in lenght immediately and arc lenght is lenghtened a bit.

I wonder if it is not that I push the electrode if I see the arc lenghtening, I often wonder if i am not using
too short an arc when welding.
On the other hand I discovered the "manual automatic welding" and then the arc is really short.

The problem is more often when doing vertical angle, I try to drag very lightly to the sides or build a triangle without touching the bottom or the sides once I get the motion. I dont know which is the best (not touching, may be )

May be also because I did move my wrist to pass from right to left, I did not notice the orientation of the stick is to be kept so the whole arm moves laterally, not mostly the wrist. Agreed ?

What do you think ?

Ps here is a try with 3 beads , trying to guide the stick
With the angles
https://goo.gl/photos/sSpxrbtfLWKEJCjP7

[MinnesotaDave]

Your pics say 115 amps with what I assume are 1/8" or 3.2mm 7018 rods.

I generally run 125-135 amps with arc force set to 30% (if the machine has it)

If you have trouble with rods sticking, it can just be your amps are too low.

[olek]

Thanks Dave, I will examine, but at 115 it seem to be cooked enough. I will give a try . ( this is on relatively thin steel too, about 6 mm )

Now if one weld at 130A with arc force at 30% and dragging is not that meaning he use about 150A or more (arc force "on" permanently ?)

I did experiment undercut and a bit too much projection when using more than 120A. May be that welder is "robust" it have 108v open tension .. we use 220v here could it make a difference ?

Regards

[Ruark]

Use good rods. Lincoln. Lincoln Excalibur if you can get it. Are you using DC? If you're using AC, I assume your rods are 7018AC rods, not just plain 7018.

For 1/8" rods, 105-110 amps is plenty. Arc force at 50, helps prevent sticking. DON'T get in the habit of trying to solve problems by turning up current or voltage all the time. The instructor at my welding school had us run everything at the minimum recommended setting. If we couldn't do it, we figured out how, instead of just turning up everything.

Your beads show a need for more consistency, especially consistent travel speed, but also consistent arc length, angle, etc. You can pretty much drag 7018 across the metal. Do NOT weave or step if you're welding flat or horizontal. Anyway, work on consistency. That will also prevent most of your sticking. Pretend you're one of those robots on a Ford assembly line.

Focus on your puddle. Notice how if you change your angle or speed, the shape of the puddle changes slightly. It becomes narrower or wider or taller or whatever. Focus on keeping that puddle the exact, exact same size and shape as you move along. This is why so many veteran welders say things like "focus on the puddle" or "become one with the puddle." Remember, you weld with the puddle, not with the stick. Eventually you are able to react (by changing your angle or speed) to what you see the puddle doing, automatically, without really thinking about it. Focus. On. The puddle.

Restarting 7018 is much easier than what most people say. You do NOT need a file. When you finish running a bead, the INSTANT you stop welding, and we're talking a fraction of a second here, flick the molten metal off the rod. Now, you don't have to fling it clear across the street; just a very light flick will do it. But it solidifies in less than a second, so do it instantly. Before you restart, you might need to pinch off the flux sticking out past the end of the filler metal. Forget all this "scrape it on a file" crap.

Seeya.

[MinnesotaDave]

For 1/8" rods, 105-110 amps is plenty. Arc force at 50, helps prevent sticking. DON'T get in the habit of trying to solve problems by turning up current or voltage all the time. The instructor at my welding school had us run everything at the minimum recommended setting. If we couldn't do it, we figured out how, instead of just turning up everything.

Respectfully, I disagree with running 7018 1/8" at the minimum recommended amperage.

Personal opinion, the middle of the range and up is where I stay. There is no need to fight it, let the rod do its thing.

[olek]

Hello , robot at the Ford plant speaking (pinched nose tone)

Thanks I notice well what you said.
I use Lincoln 7018-1 "no name" they are nor excalibur probably but this is what we have here
.I also have ESAB 48.00 they are used for those pics series.
assuming their cost I doubt I will use them often.

I focus on the puddle AND the path I follow, but yes , vision problems I do not see behind the electrode I refer to what is enlighten by the arc so knowing I can drag was good news.

I tend to use the less energy so I have more time to react to puddle changes , but I did read Lincoln about 7018 they state use enough heat, on the hot side.
There will be differences depending of the machines too.
I use DCEP with 7018 ( but was said by diffetent euthorized people that first root pass electrode negative gives better penetration)

I will do those exercises to notice the puddle shape change with angle change, I think I begin to read it, when I did begin to drag I used the same rod angle then suddenly I did incline it more as it seemed more logical to do so.
( ..can you drag with the same angle than short arc ?)

In the mean time I find interesting studies where ptfe was used as a binder to make low hydrogen and tougher electrodes, at a lower cost because no cooking.

If interested, have a look, Electrode making is depicted as well as the composition of 7018 coating ( I falsely was thinking it contains graphite but it is limestone and fluorine essentially )

Those new generation of electrodes are probably on the market, may be 7016 ? Certainly 6010 too .
They should be less expensive unless ptfe is , but ,we know how it is....
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... via%3Dihub

All the best. Thanks for your help.

[olek]

I have to understand what does arc force when looking at the amp provided. I am digging strong and create undercut if I have more than 30 arc force so I font know how to use it

The maker of my welder told me to put it at 10 if it is annoying.

[MinnesotaDave]

I have to understand what does arc force when looking at the amp provided. I am digging strong and create undercut if I have more than 30 arc force so I font know how to use it

The maker of my welder told me to put it at 10 if it is annoying.

Undercut is another way to say under-fill.

You can easily undercut using a machine that doesn't have a dig feature.

It's generally caused by poor technique and is a mistake in welding. Everyone does it from time to time and then fixes it.

New people do it a lot.

[PeteM]

I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.

[olek]

May be that is not the good name I see too much groovr6 ( canal) at the top edge of an horizontal fillet ( first pass) or when raising vertically in triangle shape

I thought also that I had too soft metal , as wrought iron , sometime.
It happens also ( less often now on the top edge of horizontal fillet

But with arc Force limited the edge of the weld are just embedded enough in the metal.

I did read that undercut was not a problem with first pass as it will be filled with the next.

I agree that it may also sign a misorientation of the rod in the angle, I am not sure now ... here it may be the case but this metal is very soft too.

7018 and 6013

https://goo.gl/photos/gT7mz46CCN8Y9NEK9

https://goo.gl/photos/6gPwoNGUiRg7nPJC9

Is arc force raising amp or only the tension, making the arc "tougher" ? I d prefer to understand it as it is a part of the welder setup, not just an "anti mistake" feature.

[Poland308]

Poor rod angle, too much amps, too much arc force, left over mill flake, and travel speed are all possible causes of undercut. These aren't the only causes, but the most likely.

[olek]

Poor rod angle, too much amps, too much arc force, left over mill flake, and travel speed are all possible causes of undercut. These aren't the only causes, but the most likely.

Good , too much arc force is in th list

arc force 10

https://goo.gl/photos/xmRQubDDPJ3CegHx6

What is arc force for, is it useful when one weld high carbon steel, for instance, or very thick pieces ?

I am sorry to focus on that, I am just thinking that I should be capable of mastering enough my rods so I do not stick, then use arc force at my advantage once I understand the process better

(I did begin the first month of welding with an old buzz box, and had the impression with the DC machine that whatever I do it will weld , I appreciate the hot start )

[Ruark]

I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.

This is true. Even if you do weld at a higher amp setting, it's ultimately you who controls the result.

[olek]

I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.

This is true. Even if you do weld at a higher amp setting, it's ultimately you who controls the result.

Yes I did see such computations, some in a cell phone appli "smart welding solution " or welder pocket helper.
I think that at least knowing how much rods you will need for a given weld joint is a good help to make a price.

It seem to be admitted anyway that welders differ somehow. Even if the precision expected do not leave much room for improvisation.

[olek]

Something I do not understand

If I raise the hot start feature from 20 to 40 , the 7018 tend to stick .

I have no idea why . Is it because a blob of metal is ejected from the rod due to too much tension ?

Also I have sometimes the slag looking like that:

https://goo.gl/photos/FVE8kh6QPPCKVn2b7

The weld is OK but ...

What is the cause ? (may be the block is too hot and need to be cooled ? )Thanks

[olek]

Focus on your puddle. Notice how if you change your angle or speed, the shape of the puddle changes slightly. It becomes narrower or wider or taller or whatever. Focus on keeping that puddle the exact, exact same size and shape as you move along. This is why so many veteran welders say things like "focus on the puddle" or "become one with the puddle." Remember, you weld with the puddle, not with the stick. Eventually you are able to react (by changing your angle or speed) to what you see the puddle doing, automatically, without really thinking about it. Focus. On. The puddle.

Seeya.

Thank you for tge restart tip, very useful. I think it is going better. I focus on the puddle even if it is not always easy.

Actually I try to see the puddle digging, but to keep the slag above it without having it moving any direction ( I suppose that as the slag is floating and we spray metal and gas on it it is normal to see it move, but what tells me that I am not having too much heat is the perimeter of the puddle. It should not enlarge easily, the perimeter should be delimited and quiet)

I hold the rod very lightly , I feel it touching the bottom from time to time, I am in the mood of letting the rod "do it thing" I am just orienting it , pulling it or pushing a hair in z motion so it dig vertical and flat, or on both sides of a corner.

Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?

[MinnesotaDave]

Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?

I don't recall saying anything about higher amps for moving faster - but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

I like higher amps so the puddle wets out easier.

Running too cold makes it much harder than it has to be - as a side benefit, it does go a little faster though.

If I want speed I'll increase the rod size and amperage so that I lay down more metal.

I do like to run higher amps specifically for speed on TIG however