[Skiddz]

Pretty much a n00b welder, have done a LITTLE bit of Oxy/Acetylene and one small project with a wire feed, but have never ventured into SMAW until I enrolled in a class at the local Jr. College. Doing ok with flat and fillet welds using 6010, (1/8") but we did 6010 uphill last session and that pretty much frustrated the entire class. While we did make improvements after trying different movement techniques, the results towards the end of class were pretty much what we started calling, "Dinosaur backbones".

We started at 95 amps, DCEN and a bunch of us tried down to 85 and up to 110 or so with no real change.

I've watched video after video on this, but the only uphill 6010 vid I can find is from that ChuckE2009 guy on YouTube and you can't really see what's he's doing.

I get that it'll take practice, but at this point, I'm not even sure what I'm doing wrong. Anybody got any tips/tricks?

[MinnesotaDave]

Wouldn't the instructor be able to show you the proper way to do it and then watch and coach you?

It's really the fastest way.

[Poland308]

If it’s an open butt joint try a 1/8 inch gap with 1/8 land. Then run a 1/8 6010 at about 75-80 amps.

[cj737]

Its for 6011, but principle is exactly the same
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f_UUo9i7IY

[MinnesotaDave]

Its for 6011, but principle is exactly the same
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f_UUo9i7IY

Yep that's a good one

[Skiddz]

Wouldn't the instructor be able to show you the proper way to do it and then watch and coach you?

It's really the fastest way.

Hmm... I typed out a reply earlier, but not seeing it now. Oh well.

Yes, the instructor ran a couple passes for us, but it's hard to see with 10 guys crowded around one bench. As I'm one of the taller guys in the class, I get to stand in the back making it even harder to see.

He also explained we could "make little 4s, triangles, crescent moons and whip/pause" as we practiced. I did them all and my best (which was still pretty poor) was the little 4 technique.

I did just watch the video cj737 posted the link to. That actually helped to get an idea of the timing/travel speed. I'll watch it again a couple more times before class on Tuesday and run a couple dozen more passes. Hopefully it will start getting better.

Thanks all!

[MinnesotaDave]

Wouldn't the instructor be able to show you the proper way to do it and then watch and coach you?

It's really the fastest way.

Hmm... I typed out a reply earlier, but not seeing it now. Oh well.

Yes, the instructor ran a couple passes for us, but it's hard to see with 10 guys crowded around one bench. As I'm one of the taller guys in the class, I get to stand in the back making it even harder to see.

He also explained we could "make little 4s, triangles, crescent moons and whip/pause" as we practiced. I did them all and my best (which was still pretty poor) was the little 4 technique.

I did just watch the video cj737 posted the link to. That actually helped to get an idea of the timing/travel speed. I'll watch it again a couple more times before class on Tuesday and run a couple dozen more passes. Hopefully it will start getting better.

Thanks all!

Just remember it's not really all about timing, the movements are also based on what you see the puddle doing.

That split second when the puddle fills out to the same size as the one below it is when you whip up.

When everything is going well, it ends up looking like a timed movement.

After I do demonstrations I rotate through the booths and weld with each student at least once per class.

[cj737]

I'll just say this: welding 6010 is not something you can "learn" by watching. It is a very tricky rod to learn, uphill even harder, so don't become frustrated too early. Until you have burned about 50# of it in every direction, consider yourself a COMPLETE novice. Then, you begin again with your non-dominant hand I can weld most everything else well enough, but 6010 STILL kicks my arse all around the block. I basically suck at it, truth be told. But I can run 7018 with a mirror off hand. Go figure...

[Poland308]

I'll just say this: welding 6010 is not something you can "learn" by watching. It is a very tricky rod to learn, uphill even harder, so don't become frustrated too early. Until you have burned about 50# of it in every direction, consider yourself a COMPLETE novice. Then, you begin again with your non-dominant hand I can weld most everything else well enough, but 6010 STILL kicks my arse all around the block. I basically suck at it, truth be told. But I can run 7018 with a mirror off hand. Go figure...

Totally agree 50# is a good bench mark.

[tweake]

We started at 95 amps, DCEN ...............

is that a typo or is the problem your running DCEN instead of DCEP ?

[Farmwelding]

I'll just say this: welding 6010 is not something you can "learn" by watching. It is a very tricky rod to learn, uphill even harder, so don't become frustrated too early. Until you have burned about 50# of it in every direction, consider yourself a COMPLETE novice. Then, you begin again with your non-dominant hand I can weld most everything else well enough, but 6010 STILL kicks my arse all around the block. I basically suck at it, truth be told. But I can run 7018 with a mirror off hand. Go figure...

Same here. You get out of posistion hand me a 7018. I find it easier to keep steady and constant than constantly whipping around.

[Skiddz]

Just remember it's not really all about timing, the movements are also based on what you see the puddle doing.
That split second when the puddle fills out to the same size as the one below it is when you whip up.
When everything is going well, it ends up looking like a timed movement.
After I do demonstrations I rotate through the booths and weld with each student at least once per class.

Yeah, got that figured out fairly well doing flat work, just all falls apart going uphill. Having some issues seeing the puddle in that position, but I'm North of 50 so Ill be picking up some "cheaters" in the morning to see if that helps me to see better with tonight's class.

I'll just say this: welding 6010 is not something you can "learn" by watching. It is a very tricky rod to learn, uphill even harder, so don't become frustrated too early. Until you have burned about 50# of it in every direction, consider yourself a COMPLETE novice. Then, you begin again with your non-dominant hand I can weld most everything else well enough, but 6010 STILL kicks my arse all around the block. I basically suck at it, truth be told. But I can run 7018 with a mirror off hand. Go figure...

I think the "frustration" comes from not knowing what exactly to look for, what I'm doing right/wrong. I'm sure it just comes down to lack of experience/practice. I'm seriously considering buying a machine (Thunderbolt 210) to practice with and to have on hand for a couple things I want to build around the house. (That's what I'm telling my wife anyways.. )

We did 7018 tonight and wow, what a difference. 2F position with 1/4" plate. Took a few passes to figure out my travel speed, but once I got that figured out, I was able to put down some decent passes. The whole class picked it up fairly quickly. I did 6, 3-pass fillets and 2, 6-pass fillets. 4 of the 6 3-pass runs were decent and both of the 6-pass runs came out pretty decent as well. A couple small sections of undercut and some "loss of rhythm" but compared to the 6010 passes, a huge improvement.

is that a typo or is the problem your running DCEN instead of DCEP ?

Nope, you're right. DCEP. (Had to look at the machine, hehehe)

BTW: Is there a Multi-Quote button here? Copying/pasting multiple quotes is a bit of a PITA.

[MinnesotaDave]

Yeah, got that figured out fairly well doing flat work, just all falls apart going uphill. Having some issues seeing the puddle in that position, but I'm North of 50 so Ill be picking up some "cheaters" in the morning to see if that helps me to see better with tonight's class.

I'm 48 and have cheaters in my welding helmet.

Sometimes with tig I also put a pair on my face too.

Focal length is the key, if I need to be closer, I need more magnification.

Or, if it's a really tiny weld, I need more magnification and then my head ends up closer again anyway.

[tungstendipper]

Yeah, got that figured out fairly well doing flat work, just all falls apart going uphill. Having some issues seeing the puddle in that position, but I'm North of 50 so Ill be picking up some "cheaters" in the morning to see if that helps me to see better with tonight's class.

I'm 48 and have cheaters in my welding helmet.

Sometimes with tig I also put a pair on my face too.

Focal length is the key, if I need to be closer, I need more magnification.

Or, if it's a really tiny weld, I need more magnification and then my head ends up closer again anyway.

Don't forget, a lot of light too!

[MinnesotaDave]

I'm 48 and have cheaters in my welding helmet.

Sometimes with tig I also put a pair on my face too.

Focal length is the key, if I need to be closer, I need more magnification.

Or, if it's a really tiny weld, I need more magnification and then my head ends up closer again anyway.

Don't forget, a lot of light too!

Man you're not kidding.

I have 14 200watt bulbs in my 26x32 shop and I still need a trouble light while working on cars....and sometimes even when working at the table...

[PeteM]

I think the "frustration" comes from not knowing what exactly to look for, what I'm doing right/wrong. I'm sure it just comes down to lack of experience/practice. I'm seriously considering buying a machine (Thunderbolt 210) to practice with and to have on hand for a couple things I want to build around the house. (That's what I'm telling my wife anyways.. )

An instructor once told me that with 6010 "What you see is what you get", meaning that the flux doesn't emerge from the pool like it does with other rods and processes (7018,fcaw-g).

Rod angle is super important too, especially with up hill. Tilting the rod will give too much tip and create a really hot pool that falls out and makes a mess as a lot of people tend to drop their wrist and start reaching with the electrode as they progress through the weld.

[Skiddz]

I can still read ok if it's bright enough, but low light makes it tough. I think if I had better lighting in the booth it would help to see both puddle and weld direction better, but the cheaters were only a few bucks so we'll see how that goes tonight.

Question on electrode angle going uphill: I've seen vids that show both 90 degrees from the workpiece and a +/- 10 "push" angle.. I tried both but both results sucked (lol).. Which would make more sense to stick with for a beginner?

[PeteM]

I prefer less, like a couple deg. off of 90, but that becomes pretty subjective as people find their own preferences.

[Poland308]

The direction the rod is pointed is where the metal is going to deposit. Use this to favor the weld depending on joint configuration or position.

[Lightning]

I would try to keep it close to 90° until you start to "get it" with 601X. The whip and pause technique may help you...

Beware of arc blow at the top of your piece...if you have trouble with the arc pulling the puddle downward toward the end of your weld, ask your instructor if he thinks it's arc blow. There are ways to deal with it, including moving your work clamp, and welding a piece of steel beyond the end of your weld, so that the magnetic flux doesn't get all jammed up at the top of your run. Lincoln has a good article on arc blow, Google and you'll find it if interested.

Don't worry, once you get it, 6010 will be easy. I consider it a lot easier than 7018, I guess because it's the first rod I learned on, and the one I use the most.

[Skiddz]

I would try to keep it close to 90° until you start to "get it" with 601X. The whip and pause technique may help you...

Yep, doing the whip and pause on flat is working ok. Uphill is still the issue. Inverted "T"s seems to be the best thus far, just need to work on travel speed and timing of the "T".

Beware of arc blow at the top of your piece...if you have trouble with the arc pulling the puddle downward toward the end of your weld, ask your instructor if he thinks it's arc blow. There are ways to deal with it, including moving your work clamp, and welding a piece of steel beyond the end of your weld, so that the magnetic flux doesn't get all jammed up at the top of your run. Lincoln has a good article on arc blow, Google and you'll find it if interested.

I've been "pushing" uphill and about an inch before the end of the run, I start to transition to a slight "pull" and get the last 1/2" or so at that angle. Saw several vids of that technique. Still getting a little cratering at the end, but it's getting better.

I actually had an arc blow on 7018 last night. It made a mess of what was looking to be a nice run...

Don't worry, once you get it, 6010 will be easy. I consider it a lot easier than 7018, I guess because it's the first rod I learned on, and the one I use the most.

We started on 6010 and did that for 6 classes. Just started on 7018 this week and I (and the rest of the class) find it a lot easier to run than 6010. Next week is 6010 root passes with two 7018 cover passes. I'm going to run out Saturday and maybe pick up a Thunderbolt 210 and a box of 6010 and practice all day.

[Skiddz]

Quick update. Went backwards a bit and stopped vertical practice and worked on stacking beads in fillet welds. 6010 root and 7018 fill, but last night, I was determined to figure out 6010 fillet welds with 6010 cover passes using 3/8" material. Other than some undercut on the root pass, I was actually getting decent results on all but the last "top" pass. Still getting undercut - I can't seem to find the right angle/technique with 6010. After 10 passes on each side of my "T", I went back to 7018 cover passes.

Still can't quite make a nice straight line (Having a hard time seeing where I need to go, even with my helmet turned down to about9.25 (Any lower and it's too bright) but getting better. Frustrating because I literally soloed a helicopter in less time than it's taken to get to this point under the hood. I *am* able to work the puddle and "fix" issues with previous passes so there's progress. Just very slow progress.

Next class it's back to vertical uphill... yay.

[Poland308]

Do you have the ability to adjust arc force?

[Lightning]

Stick with it, you'll get it. Really hone in on that puddle. Change hoods if need be (I find a fixed shade gives me a MUCH better view of the puddle) so that you can really see what's going on with the puddle, and maybe get a demo from a few different (competent) welders while watching how they handle their puddles, then spend the time. Don't worry, you'll get it...

[Bill Beauregard]

I was working on a 5/16" thick underground gas tank last year. The tank was heavily corroded, the rectangular frame I was surrounding it with was also heavily corroded. I needed to run 48' of vertical weld to join tank to frame. The metal was NASTY rusted, and i reached a point where grinding had gone 1/16" deep into all surfaces, and deep pits still remained.

Minnesota Dave coached me some, and CEP over at Welding web suggested turning up the heat, and running a U shaped bead to blow out old, corrupt metal, replacing it with new. That strategy worked for me. Clean metal makes all the difference, but if you have clean, why not use 7018?