Welding Tips and Tricks

I was playing around with my OA rig the other day.

Decided to strip off the flux on a couple different rods and use them as filler on my OA. I pound them on the anvil with a hammer to loosen the flux then remove the rest with sandpaper. The cellulose rods can be soaked in water to remove flux.

The 6011 welded typically as a fast freeze.

The 7018 flowed out much nicer, easy and smooth.

Working on getting a smaller torch (Victor 315 is a bit big and feels clumsy) and some real Victor welding tips,the China ones I am using are not very good.

So don't throw those old soggy 7018's away, use them or donate them to an OA guy or gal!

Ever try them with tig?

One thing to bear in mind, brazing is not welding. With brazing, you’re not getting the parent metal hot enough to fuse the filler and parent metal together, only hot enough to melt the filler. 7018 rods need heat to fuse properly for adequate strength.

Now, if you’re just knocking about and doing lightweight stuff, no issue. But I don’t think I’d rely on those rods for something that needed actual structural strength.

cj737 wrote:One thing to bear in mind, brazing is not welding.

Ummm... I think can weld fine with OA too.. Something about it being a welding a process used before this whole 'arc welding' and electricery malarky came along sounds about right...

Point still taken that even with OA welding the metallurgy of the metal in a 'stick' rod is probably different from dedicated OA filler rods (just like TIG ones are different) so it won't be suitable for critical welds.

Bye, Arno.

Arno wrote:

cj737 wrote:One thing to bear in mind, brazing is not welding.

Ummm... I think can weld fine with OA too.. Something about it being a welding a process used before this whole 'arc welding' and electricery malarky came along sounds about right...

Point still taken that even with OA welding the metallurgy of the metal in a 'stick' rod is probably different from dedicated OA filler rods (just like TIG ones are different) so it won't be suitable for critical welds.

Bye, Arno.

My post was all about brazing, not welding. His first beads appear to be too cold despite the ripples. Certainly one can weld with OA, but you got to get the heat high enough to use a 3/32 or 1/8 7018 rod.

77cruiser wrote:Ever try them with tig?

I don't think they would work very well for TIG, due to incompatible metallurgy.

cj737 wrote:One thing to bear in mind, brazing is not welding. With brazing, you’re not getting the parent metal hot enough to fuse the filler and parent metal together, only hot enough to melt the filler. 7018 rods need heat to fuse properly for adequate strength.

Now, if you’re just knocking about and doing lightweight stuff, no issue. But I don’t think I’d rely on those rods for something that needed actual structural strength.

Both welds were in fact welds, nice fluid puddles, admitting filler rod to the puddle with the torch flame on the back or opposite side of travel allowing the filler to melt into the puddle before advancing the flame, then retracting the filler and advancing the puddle and repeating.
The 6011 was as expected a very fast freeze, making it look like it is not penetrating but it is, try it if you have an OA.
The 7018 was interesting because of how nicely it flowed, kinda like a hot 6013, smooth and buttery.
I was using crappy China #2 tip on 1/8 plate, slow going but I was able to get the proper amount of heat in the base metal.

Anyway, thanks for come back, I am always looking to learn and enjoy this forum and Jodi's knowledge.

I believe the rod in the center of a 6010 and a 7018 are both the same grade of mild steel. The difference is in the flux. If your knocking off the flux then your just oxy welding with mild steel filler.

+1

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Poland308 wrote:I believe the rod in the center of a 6010 and a 7018 are both the same grade of mild steel. The difference is in the flux. If your knocking off the flux then your just oxy welding with mild steel filler.

They differ slightly:
https://www.norco-inc.com/ASSETS/DOCUME ... cSheet.pdf

http://www.pinnaclealloys.com/wp/wp-con ... 7018-1.pdf

It's common knowledge and taught in welding schools. All carbon steel rods are the same low grade mild steel. All properties of the deposited filler are provided by the outer flux coating. This includes:
Final alloy of the deposited filler
Tensile strength
Hardness and malleability
Hydrogen content

It also gas shields the weldpool
Scavenges impurities
Stabilises the arc
Affects weld position
Affects deposition rate
Plus more

Important stuff. I recon the people that worked out all this stuff must have been super smart.

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cj737 wrote:

Poland308 wrote:I believe the rod in the center of a 6010 and a 7018 are both the same grade of mild steel. The difference is in the flux. If your knocking off the flux then your just oxy welding with mild steel filler.

They differ slightly:
https://www.norco-inc.com/ASSETS/DOCUME ... cSheet.pdf

http://www.pinnaclealloys.com/wp/wp-con ... 7018-1.pdf

Data sheets are very informative,

This is off topic but relates to learning about the chemical make up differences of rods.
This is a bit about the 6013 rod.
I have been playing around with 6013 lately making good looking cover passes and it flows out very smoothly. I understand it is the go to rod in most of Europe, but not so much here in the sates.

Because it is a 60 series rod I always assumed it would have a lot less less sheer and tensile strength than 7018.

But looking at the Data Sheets it shares a lot of similarity with the 7018.

The 6013 is classed as a fast freeze rod, but I was messing around wanting to build up and cover some ugly practice welds and was surprised how smooth it would make a large cover pass.
So I think after looking at how it covered I am going to use it to build up a handle on a hammer I made. The left side of the weld is messy because my glove began to get very hot, it had a hole in it. LOL
Lincoln E6013 1/8"

Thanks for listening, been welding a long time but now I am learning how to "Properly" weld!

There are allowances for proprietary reasons on the chemical make up for different rods of the same designation. However they are so subtle they are indecernable unless your doing elemental analysis at a laboratory level. But even with these differences they have to fall with in the parameters of the rod make up for a given designation. Or else they can’t mark them with the numbers like 6010 or 7018.

I should probably add I’m not trying to be a nit picky ass. I just want people to be aware that once you knock of the flux from a rod it no longer is garanteed that it has even remotely similar properties. It may be a fine practice for a given application! But it’s not a recognized, or acceptable method for any kind of code work, or any work you may be liable for.

Poland308 wrote:I should probably add I’m not trying to be a nit picky ass. I just want people to be aware that once you knock of the flux from a rod it no longer is garanteed that it has even remotely similar properties. It may be a fine practice for a given application! But it’s not a recognized, or acceptable method for any kind of code work, or any work you may be liable for.

Hi Monger,

I think if I understand you correctly it is the flux that creates the welding atmosphere shield that maintains the design properties for the particular rods properties? Without that shield it's just a rod with whatever metallurgical makeup, could be a coat hanger or a rod composed of a complex deposit composition?

Thanks for making my A HA Moment! Your explanation allowed me to put all the pieces together in my simple formerly drug altered mind! LOL

Stripping a flux rod and putting it into an OA envelop environment is going to produce an entirely different weld composition???

I was discussing this with my father who has a PHD in organic chemistry and he was attempting to explain this stuff to me, but it went way over my head. But I think on a basic level I am getting a grasp on what you are saying.

Thanks so much Monger for putting this into perspective. Welding is chemistry is it not??

Welding is what ever level you want to take it too! Chemistry, metallurgy, code work, structural or pressure, or just plain I did it and ain’t broken yet!

Poland308 wrote:I should probably add I’m not trying to be a nit picky ass. I just want people to be aware that once you knock of the flux from a rod it no longer is garanteed that it has even remotely similar properties. It may be a fine practice for a given application! But it’s not a recognized, or acceptable method for any kind of code work, or any work you may be liable for.

to add, this makes it easy to manufacture different rods especially many years ago that didn't have modern manufacturing methods. use one base metal and then its very easy to change the flux coating to get a different spec rod.

cellulose rods get their aggressive nature and fast freeze from the gas they produce from the flux.
6013 gets its nice ripples from the slow cooling by the thick slag coating.

with tig rods and mig wire you have to change the base metal used to make the rods/wire.

if you need to AO something, use tig rods or mig wire. i've known guys to twist mig wire together and use it as a rod.