Welding Tips and Tricks

As far as heavy Tig goes I’m pretty much sorted. Only bigger machines I'm wanting to acquire in the future are Dynasty 400’s and 800’s.

My question though is I want to leave my 350LX setup for Tig welding. I’m considering looking for something of equally high or higher amperage that I can set up for running Stick and air arc gouging. I’m a little stumped on what machines to look for. My only preference is them being 3 phase power at 400volt. I would also like a bigger Mig setup but I am not a fabricator really so unless a demand suddenly opens up in my area for flood welding I am less bother about that as there are so many Mig options.

I’m in no rush and it’s not even a budget priority right now. But just thought I would ask what machines people have seen used out there in the world like I have described?

I'm actually going to buy a 3-Φ/400V stick/gouging machine, but it is not at the power level you're looking for. It's brand new machine from Stel in Italy. The vast majority of their larger machines are 3-Φ/400V.

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I have used a PipePro 350 and 600 to do as you describe. Self contained generators capable of serious work, maybe not quite what you seek as you have power already sourced. The Dynasty 400 can also be a helluva Stick machine and does CA gouging.

I think 500 amp machines are a good starting point for common steady use of an air arc.

cj737 wrote:I have used a PipePro 350 and 600 to do as you describe. Self contained generators capable of serious work, maybe not quite what you seek as you have power already sourced. The Dynasty 400 can also be a helluva Stick machine and does CA gouging.

In all honesty it was looking at Sub Arc power sources that made me start thinking of this whole thing.

Dynasty’s are great but if I had one it would be the same as my Syncrowave where I have it dedicated to Tig.

William Payne wrote:

cj737 wrote:I have used a PipePro 350 and 600 to do as you describe. Self contained generators capable of serious work, maybe not quite what you seek as you have power already sourced. The Dynasty 400 can also be a helluva Stick machine and does CA gouging.

In all honesty it was looking at Sub Arc power sources that made me start thinking of this whole thing.

Dynasty’s are great but if I had one it would be the same as my Syncrowave where I have it dedicated to Tig.

No disrespect to the Synchro or you, but having a high end Dynasty is part of the point. It need not be relegated to TIG only. Swap the torch for a stinger, push 2 buttons, and start welding. And they do have perhaps one of the nicest stick arcs you’ll ever use.

Don’t think the 400 would be my preference if I wanted to rely on a CA job of thick material or prolonged use. Sure would be fine for an intermittent use. A Plasma might be a better choice if you anticipate heavy usage or thick jobs?

cj737 wrote:

William Payne wrote:

cj737 wrote:I have used a PipePro 350 and 600 to do as you describe. Self contained generators capable of serious work, maybe not quite what you seek as you have power already sourced. The Dynasty 400 can also be a helluva Stick machine and does CA gouging.

In all honesty it was looking at Sub Arc power sources that made me start thinking of this whole thing.

Dynasty’s are great but if I had one it would be the same as my Syncrowave where I have it dedicated to Tig.

No disrespect to the Synchro or you, but having a high end Dynasty is part of the point. It need not be relegated to TIG only. Swap the torch for a stinger, push 2 buttons, and start welding. And they do have perhaps one of the nicest stick arcs you’ll ever use.

Don’t think the 400 would be my preference if I wanted to rely on a CA job of thick material or prolonged use. Sure would be fine for an intermittent use. A Plasma might be a better choice if you anticipate heavy usage or thick jobs?

My apologies I misspoke, what I meant wasn’t down to capability’s. I should have worded it that I was meaning different locations in the shop.

Tot he people saying use the dynasty to arc gouge.. would you not be worried about damaging the machine? I'm under the impression it can be rough on the machines, dynasty is big $$ to screw up
As far as stick welding goes though I'd just plug into the dynasty and use that

nick121 wrote:Tot he people saying use the dynasty to arc gouge.. would you not be worried about damaging the machine? I'm under the impression it can be rough on the machines, dynasty is big $$ to screw up
As far as stick welding goes though I'd just plug into the dynasty and use that

I wouldn’t. Use it as its rated and designed and it will be absolutely fine.

cj737 wrote:

nick121 wrote:Tot he people saying use the dynasty to arc gouge.. would you not be worried about damaging the machine? I'm under the impression it can be rough on the machines, dynasty is big $$ to screw up
As far as stick welding goes though I'd just plug into the dynasty and use that

I wouldn’t. Use it as its rated and designed and it will be absolutely fine.

The Dynasty 400 is rated to carbon arc gouge as per the Miller literature/documentaion.

I will reinsert the point that any machine below 500 amps will be intermittent use for air arc. If you want to use it seriously for that then you need to bump up above 400.

Arc gouging on a good machine has a BAD reputation among old timers, supposedly machines that get delegated for heavy arc gouging never weld right again after a while. The eletronics guy side of me is fairly skeptical that gouging puts unique stresses on the machine that other processes would not, and I can only hypothesize the issue arises from turning the dial up to 11 and then gouging non stop for hours on end other than to quickly swap electrodes causing the machine to heat up far far beyond duty cycle. The other possibility would be that gouging requires higher voltage to maintain the right amp settings than stick welding generally does. Since VoltsxAmps=watts, stick welding at 35v and 300 amps would put much less strain on a machine than gouging at a theoretical 55V and 300 amps. You'd be expecting 10,500W out of the machine while stick welding, but a whopping 16,500W while gouging. Most CC machines will adjust the voltage as much as they're able to in order to maintain the selected amperage. However I have no idea of gouging actually requires more voltage or not, I'm merely speculating.

Regardless, although I honestly would expect inverters to actually be smart enough to handle it better due to the likelihood of more failsafes. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable gouging with any machine I intended to tig weld with at more than 75-80% of it's max output at most and while paying attention to the duty cycle. It's just not worth ruining a tig machine in my opinion by hotrodding it too much.

After spending a few minutes digging, I did stumble across a couple references to gouging requiring higher arc voltage than standard stick welding typically does. While I couldn't find any sort of chart saying gouging at X amount of amps generally requires X arc voltage. I've read from several sources that gouging requires more voltage than most welding processes in general.

https://www.red-d-arc.com/pdf/Air%20Car ... 20Data.pdf

sbaker56 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:49 pm After spending a few minutes digging, I did stumble across a couple references to gouging requiring higher arc voltage than standard stick welding typically does. While I couldn't find any sort of chart saying gouging at X amount of amps generally requires X arc voltage. I've read from several sources that gouging requires more voltage than most welding processes in general.

https://www.red-d-arc.com/pdf/Air%20Car ... 20Data.pdf

I think that might mean that budget, often single phase transformer machines, that typically have an OCV of 45-50 volts are not suitable for CAG. More upmarket machines with an OCV of (say) 70 volts can by used for CAG in addition to having better arc starting capabilities when stick welding.

But that's just me thinking.

Jack

Jack Ryan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:37 pm

sbaker56 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:49 pm After spending a few minutes digging, I did stumble across a couple references to gouging requiring higher arc voltage than standard stick welding typically does. While I couldn't find any sort of chart saying gouging at X amount of amps generally requires X arc voltage. I've read from several sources that gouging requires more voltage than most welding processes in general.

https://www.red-d-arc.com/pdf/Air%20Car ... 20Data.pdf

I think that might mean that budget, often single phase transformer machines, that typically have an OCV of 45-50 volts are not suitable for CAG. More upmarket machines with an OCV of (say) 70 volts can by used for CAG in addition to having better arc starting capabilities when stick welding.

But that's just me thinking.

Jack

Sounds about right. Kinda like trying to run 6010s. On my machines, the correlation tends point to >65V OCV. Even though that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get enough arc voltage while welding, it tends to be the case more often than not. So it seems to be a similar break-point. Case in point, my best stick welder has an OCV of 100V and runs any electrode like a dream. Better machine than I am welder.

flextec 650, absolutley indestructable. works great in snowy conditions, covered of course. hot and dusty conditions. Built big yellow dump truck trays, D11 repairs, sheet metal, generalfab etc. It is such a great machine, a bit pricey but as Return on Investment it could definitley make a business with a smallish cap ex. make nice heavy duty trolley with space for 2 gas bottles and wire feeder with a lift point and ability to forklift and off you go.
It gouges easy 13mm sticks and does dc tig well, I would get a foot pedal for greater real time control though.
it is usable with other brand parts as well, Lincoln accesories are pricey and yet same quality as others. I have found it loves the work. millers are great too but I have spent alot of time trying to find a flaw with this machine for a number of years and not much more than fuse has happened for treatment its recieved. I have tools that I am kinder too, but this one pays for the rest of them and as such is treated more demandingly. If you didnt notice, I love this machine

OCV and arc voltage don't necessarily go hand in hand, at least not on inverters, I've metered several inverters with an OCV of 70 or above that couldn't run a 6010 to save their life. However I think you're right in that what I referenced mentioned voltage more for arc ignition/stability reasons that machine strain. A CC power source will adjust voltage as needed in order to maintain stable current flow at the selected amps, some power sources are designed to do this MUCH better than others however, and I don't think it's a coincidence that most machine's that run a 6010 fantastic are rated for gouging if they're high enough output and vice versa.

Rather my point would be that I doubt most of us would crank a machine up to max, long arc the hell out of a 6010, and burn a handful of rods that way, but that may very well be what gouging is the equivalent of. The easiest way to test this would be to hook my multimeter up to the terminals on a machine and have someone weld a bead at preset amperage than gouge with the same settings and monitor the arc voltage to see if they differed from one another in any significant way.

I'm not even convinced it's harmful, especially not when the duty cycle is minded or on an inverter rated for it. I'm just theorizing why it's so widely accepted among old timers that it's such a bad idea.