[NCK.Ag.Services]

In the little bit of spare time I have, I have read many threads on here regarding all manner of welding. I had hoped that I could piece together my own answer but a lot of this is foreign to me and so I'm finding it a bit challenging to decipher the terminology that goes into welding.
Since I am another FNG and nobody knows me or cares to, at least let me provide a bit of background about myself. I started welding when I was 12 in the shop on our farm. I used a Lincoln 'tombstone' arc welder when I had the opportunity to do so. I had a good industrial arts teacher in high school but we primarily focused on MIG welding. I became very comfortable with an ESAB migmaster 250 and ended up with one in our shop back home on the farm. I used it almost exclusively for 15 years until the situation there changed. Not worth going into detail about that. Now I weld with a Lincoln Ranger 305g that I have mounted on one of my trucks.
My current project involves building corner posts for a new pasture fence. The uprights for the corner posts are 5 1/2" o.d. oil field drill stem pipe. The cross braces to tie the uprights together are made of 2 7/8" o.d. stem pipe. I don't have a pattern to mark the correct saddle depth onto the 2 7/8" so I am hand fitting them using my hypertherm powermax 45 plasma cutter.
I am running my root pass with 1/8" 6011 downhill set at 85 or so amps with arc control set at +4. That part I get along ok with. Where I struggle is running a second pass vertically with 1/8" 7018. My amps are set at 105 with arc control at -4 to -6. Staying in position is a challenge because the uprights have a much thicker wall so I am trying to lean the rod towards that upright to direct heat into it for penetration. The problem is that I really don't know what I am doing. I never had any opportunity for education in welding beyond metals class in high school. Whatever I do or don't know, I have had to learn from reading, asking, listening, and hunting down tutorials online. When I am trying to run my vertical bead, I get too large of a puddle in the middle and it wants to sag. If I try to speed up my movements to avoid the sag I end up with incomplete coverage and poor penetration. I have tried adjusting amperage ranging from 90 amps to 135 amps, rod thickness between 1/8" and 5/32", and arc control from -6 to +5. All adjustments were made individually so as to not muddy proverbial water.
I'm sure a picture would help but honestly I would be ashamed to post one. It's not a pretty sight. Any insight into how to improve my welds would be appreciated. Don't be afraid to speak slowly and use small words. Maybe a picture drawn with a Crayola crayon if you have one handy....

Thanks,
Michael

[Otto Nobedder]

Welcome, Michael,

Approving your post is my last act for the night, and I have to hit the hay for work. I'll give your post a good read tomorrow, and see what I can offer. However, you'll have several responses by the time I'm off work.

Don't be pessimistic. We thrive on adding new knowledge and people, and our mission is to help each other out when we can.

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

Have you practiced vertical up on straight stock back at the shop? That's your first step before trying to weld round stuff.

Why not use 6011/6010 for the entire project? It's just fencing right?

Vertical down at 85 amps is pretty cold for me - just personal preference but I'm around 115-125 vertical down depending on thickness.

[NCK.Ag.Services]

I am trying to use the 7018 because its a good place to practice. These corners are so ridiculously overkill that one of the posts would most likely hold without any extra bracing. The landowner wants triples with double runners connecting each upright. 15" post holes seven feet deep. Its taking over a thousand pounds of concrete per post hole. They aren't going anywhere. They are however off in the boonies where no one will ever see them. Its a good place to practice running some 7018. Some welds don't look all that bad. They aren't great though and nothing like the welds I see the person from welding tips and tricks lay down. He makes it look really easy so obviously it can be done with practice, knowledge, and a well-developed skill set. I don't have the second two of those yet so I am here to add knowledge to my practice time.
As for running the 6011 at 85 amps.....I dunno. Seemed to work and let me fill in spots where I didn't match the pipe perfectly to each other. I want my torch back. The plasma is nice but I prefer to hand fit these with an acetylene torch. My oxygen regulator decided it would be fun to blow more gas back into the atmosphere than down the hose line so its off getting rebuilt. However that doesn't absolve me of the fact that my welding skills aren't up to par. And yes I definitely could do the whole project with the 6011. But a nice 7018 bead is something to behold in my opinion and lays much nicer than 6011. Unless of course I am the one running the stinger. Then it just looks like somebody ran a bead drunk and blindfolded in the dark.

[paul_s]

Welcome to the forum. Sorry, I can't help with your question.
You may want to check this site for templates to fit up your pieces:
http://metalgeek.com/static/cope.pcgi

[rake]

Personally I'd use 7018 3/32 instead of 1/8 less heat for less sag.
At least for one pass around. Then, you could switch to 1/8 for a cover
if you need more weld on these joints Don't weird up the rod angle.
Keep it right in there and just spend "more time" on the thicker member.
I tend to weave in a "J" motion with the top of the "J" on the thicker member.

[MinnesotaDave]

Michael -
"I really don't know what I'm doing"
"nobody will see it"
"good place to practice"
"Some welds don't look all that bad"
are not what I'd expect to hear from someone being paid to weld.

Practice on your own time, nail your technique and settings on scrap - never on someone's actual job.
Apologies if that sounds preachy but man you make yourself sound like a hack.

Grab some scrap, run some vertical and post pics - plenty of guys here that can help you dial in.

[Bill Beauregard]

I'm not the expert who should be answering, my vertical up doesn't look as good as Howards, then I don't look as good as Howard. I digress. You haven't given a good sense of wall thickness, the weld need not be better than the thinner steel. Maybe 3/32" would do. Pass over center at a rate of speed that maintains a continuous puddle but like paint, doesn't have enough weight to sag. When you get to the edge of the weld joint, be sure to go far enough, burry the electrode burning a pocket to deposit filler in and anchor the liquid steel, then move across diagonally, repeat. With each swing create a ledge to pile the next layer on.
Most people complain about 7018 sticking when starting, not the way it runs.

[Superiorwelding]

.... and nobody knows me or cares to...
Michael

Welcome to the forum! There is where you would be wrong. Most of us here have become good friends and it all started with getting to know one another. I will also agree not to make yourself look like a lesser person.

To try and help with your vertical up welding, you are in the right amerage range. I generally run 90-120 amps for 1/8" electrodes. I see two ways to weld your saddle. First is if you have a good tight fit you can run one weave bead. I always tell others to hold the sides for a count of one second. It will seem like you are there for a little to long but once you get the pattern down it will flow in your mind well. The second it a single pass up the joint. Again assuming a good fit, simple whip the 7018 straight up the "crack" and you would be done.
If however you do not have the best fit up, a easy way is to run 6010 or 6011 down at around 80-95 amps and fill in the gap. After this you will be able to go up with the 7018.
Keeping in mind what you have said about no one seeing this fence and realizing your frustration, you could go down with 6010 or 6011 and go down with 7018. Keep in mind you need to learn vert up and 7018 down has its own challenges but this is another option.
Last, if you cant get the vert up down pat and need to just get the job done, go buy some 5P+ 6010 and 8010 and run all downs and be done.
As always pictures will really help in diagnosing a problem. I know how embarrassing it can be to post pics of welds you do not like, however we here will NOT put you down or talk behind your back no matter what your welds look like.
-Jonathan

[AKweldshop]

Please post a pic of your vertical weld.
I'll make it fair, and post a pic of my FIRST ever vertical welds...

I know what your going through on the pipe stuff,
I used to do a fair amount of this stuff, when I would build fences.
I actually will have a job coming up like this.
A farmer friend has several miles of 6in drill pipe, and need a bunch of fence put up.
I'll probably be doing a lot of what your doing.

I'm guessing your pipe is around 1/4 wall???

Personally,
I wouldn't worry about using 7018.
I'd used a 1/8 or 5/32 6011 or 6010.
About 100amps on the 1/8 rod, and 125 on the 5/32.
It makes a good enough weld for fencing.
My 2 cents.

As to 7018, hold the corners, don't hang around in the middle.


My end of the deal is showing my first vertical weld.
Right here.

IMG_1462.JPG (124.65 KiB) Viewed 2698 times

If we see your, we can help diagnose the problem....
And we don't make fun of anyone.

Welcome to the forum.

~John

[AKweldshop]

Here's my first flat weld.
Don't be ashamed to show pics of your welds.
All of us learned by making bad welds, asking for help, practice some more, and practice some more.

I've got some scrap drill pipe, I might just whip up a saddle joint, and show you how I would do it.

IMG_1461.JPG (108.78 KiB) Viewed 1877 times

[DylanWelds]

I would run 3/32 at 85-90 amps if I were you. Smaller rods are easier to handle for some people. A pic would be good to see. But from your description here is what I think. You say your middle humps out so you try to sweep across fast but end up with poor coverage... you may be taking too far of steps up your joint as your stepping across it. Try to take your steps from side to side in a fast motion while staying in your puddle and letting it slowly follow you up instead of driving it up quickly.

[DylanWelds]

Oh and if you're gonna use 1/8 inch I would crank it up to about 110-115. And maybe try arc force on -2.

[noddybrian]

As previously mentioned - you could go to metal geek cope calculator & if you can get it to print the right size you should be able to get a good wrap around guide - if not spend the time with a grinder on an off cut of the pipe to achieve a good saddle fit up - then get some card or very thin sheet metal - wrap it around & draw the cope onto the sheet - now cut that shape out & keep as your cutting guide.

Both Jody & Lanse have some good video showing vertical up weave technique in detail that should help you - it is possible you are trying too much weave in one pass - hard to say without seeing it.

I've found some epic bad 7018 here over the years - just wondering what your using & how old it is ? - could be the rod is adding to your frustration - maybe worth a fresh box of a known good rod - ( even good brands seem to make some bad rod ! ) - pipe welds such as yours are made more difficult if the rod is one with very thick flux or one that burns back up inside the flux a long way - worth some investigation - I've favored " Filarc " 7018 for weld tests though they are not cost effective for everyday use here.

[Superiorwelding]

To add to the cope help, a back yard way of doing it is get one end coped very good and take a piece of paper and trace the cope onto it and cut out said pattern and you now have a good pattern. When I need a pattern for a saddle, cope, or 45, I simply ask a engineer to print out a scale drawing on the plotter and laminate it for future use but not everyone has access to this.
Also to help with your measurements and for others who may not know, always measure to the inside of your cope. NEVER measure long point to long point. One of our newer engineers handed me prints for review with all dimensions to the long points. This will never work as the long point can change especially if it is a angled joint. Also, some coping machines will cope differently as well as humans doing it different. FYI. If you know this already, ignore it.
-Jonathan

[NCK.Ag.Services]

Lots of specifics to sort through. Thank you guys all for the replies. The rod is new firepower brand. I am sure its not the best but its what was available locally. The next option is to make a hundred mile round trip to have a better selection.
I will (reluctantly) post photos as soon as I get back to the job. They got a lot of rain so I don't think I'll be able to get back in for a day or so. Sunday hopefully I can get back in to work on it.
Dave J, I appreciate the input and constructive criticism. To clarify a couple of points and maybe interest you in helping me make better welds let me say that my compensation for what I build is based on a "per foot" basis...not per hour. If I want to spend three days on one weld it only comes out of my own pocket. This is a reasonably small tight-knit agricultural community and continuity of my business lives or dies based on my trustworthiness. As we all know, bad news will make it around the world before good news gets its boots on in the morning so nobody is getting screwed over here. Its a good place to practice because the time table allows it and I am not being paid per welder hour. If I make myself sound like a hack....well....I don't know what to say to about that. In the eyes of many people I suppose I am. The difference though is a hack thinks he's good because he doesn't care to know what he doesn't know. I am actively trying to improve the quality of product I deliver to my customers.

[AKweldshop]

Well,
I hate to tell you, but those firepower rods are half the problem, if not more.

Save yourself time, and money, and get 50lbs( more if you need it) of lincoln 7018.

I like the Jet lh-78 a little better than Excaliber, but those are the best 7018's out there...

I'm guessing you bought the firepower rods at a hardware store, in 5-10lbs cardboard boxes???

Cheap crap...

~John

[noddybrian]

Ha ha - has Walmart struck again ! - from watching You Tube I gather picking up welding supplies or a girlfriend there is asking for trouble !

[MinnesotaDave]

Ha ha - has Walmart struck again ! - from watching You Tube I gather picking up welding supplies or a girlfriend there is asking for trouble !

Oh no! Not Walmart rods!
Although to be fair, getting a girlfriend and some welding rods and still getting change from a $20 is pretty expedient

Michael, I like your quote - hadn't heard that one
When you get pics up I'm sure you'll get the help needed here - can't be any worse than anyone else in the beginning
Sure glad I learned before the Internet could have showed any pictures! LOL

[kermdawg]

Here's my first flat weld.
Don't be ashamed to show pics of your welds.
All of us learned by making bad welds, asking for help, practice some more, and practice some more.

I've got some scrap drill pipe, I might just whip up a saddle joint, and show you how I would do it.

IMG_1461.JPG

Hey that looks like some of my first welding beads. And I definately agree with the practice part, you can never practice enough.

[wheresmejumper]

Ill admit that my first try at arc was so bad, that getting a camera out was the last thing on my mind.
more like, how much will I get on ebay for a lightly used welder?

[kermdawg]

Ill admit that my first try at arc was so bad, that getting a camera out was the last thing on my mind.
more like, how much will I get on ebay for a lightly used welder?

hehe. I bought a welder off a guy at work for 50 bucks. thing is probably older than I am. First time I struck an arc I jumped a bit. Thought I was gonna burn the house down so I shut it down and stood firewatch for about an hour.

what do you mean your not suppose to practice welding in your living room? how else are you suppose to watch videos while youi weld?

[shawnmac]

7018 vertical can be challenging one tick i learned was dont worry about the middle hold the sides to remove undercut the middle looks after it self. Give that a try and see if it helps .

[AKweldshop]

Ill admit that my first try at arc was so bad, that getting a camera out was the last thing on my mind.
more like, how much will I get on ebay for a lightly used welder?

Ain't that the truth!!

I almost thru my AC225 because I couldn't run a rod!!!

I was 13 then!!!

But,
I would keep trying!!!

It comes to you after a while.
It did for me anyway..

~John

[Bill Beauregard]

Yeah, the learning curve is slow unless an expert shows you.