[weldin mike 27]

Hey everyone,

I did a bit of historical research today, regarding Tigging with a footpedal.

THe company I work for, called Thales. Formally known as Australian Defence Industries and before that as The Commonwealth Ordanance Factory- Bendigo.

Anyway, this facilty has historically been known as the home of the highest quality welding and tradespeople in the area. Tig stick mig oxy flux core sub arc electro slag, for Military and civilian customers. Pressure vessel work made up a large portion of the work in the glory days.
Getting to the point, There is not one footpedal on any tig in the joint.
All the tigs have HF but only with a torch switch.

I thought this is stange so i asked on of our veteran welders, with 38 years experience. Had he ever used a footpedal here?

Answer was "No, never" he didnt even know what they do. This man is considered one of the best in the place and has Tigged on everything from Hammel breech blocks to xray piping and pressure vessel root runs before sub arc. He would have seen one if they were there.

Strange? Considerering the high quality welding they did.

Anyone care to offer an explaination, or an opinion:-3

[West Baden Iron]

Hey Mike,

I would say it is as much an attitude of, "We have never used one in the past, why start now?", type of thing. As we get older it is definitely harder to change especially when something works as well as it obviously does for your shop. For me, I love the pedal for bench work and all the easy to get to stuff. I just recently got a switch for the torch and it definitely has its place.

I'm sure some guys that have never used one think they are a waste of time, but there are definitely places where it makes the welding easier for me, especially on starts and stops. I guess it lets you not have to be exact on the amperage and let's you have a little variance.

I'm not a full time weldor so take all this with a grain of salt, but my real job is working on the pipelines and I see this type of stuff all the time. Changes are difficult for a lot of people. I just made a bunch of guys mad by cleaning out our desk. Not sure why we needed those 1993 phone books and 1989 company phone directories, but I trashed all that stuff and it isn't sitting well with some.

Thanks,

Jason

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Thanks mate, we dont do alot of production tig anymore but i do thinks it weird. I dunno if it goes for all of Australia, but even my trade school didnt bother with them.


Mick

[noddybrian]

Just a humble opinion - but when watching Jody tig smallish parts seated at his bench the pedal is a great help - but the parts you mention are likely to be heavy / difficult to manouver so welding will be positional done standing - it's difficult to use the pedal in this way - also I think the pedal has gained popularity as the extra control it allows means you don't need to be exact on machine setting or parts fit up as you can adjust the weld pool to suit " by eye " to - whereas your applications will have a very strict method statement & hence a very narrow allowance on machine settings / root gaps / general tolerance to pass all relevant quality control - so I think the pedal has it's uses - but for industries such as yours using fairly fixed criteria for each weld the pedal just introduces an extra element of uncertainty - most likey sticking to a known machine current setting produces consistant results with 4T setting allowing slope up / down on stops & starts. Another oddity is a company's willingness to try new stuff out & the persistance of sales reps trying to push new equipement - then getting the work force to embrace change - ( I generally don't like change - but some stuff is great - I could'nt imagine not having an auto darkening welding mask - but I know a couple of firms think their some sort of voodoo - they don't trust them & won't allow them to be used even if a guy pays for one out of his own money ! )

[ajlskater1]

All the stuff you mentioned that you guys weld is thick heavy stuff and can be done without a foot pedal. The place were a foot pedal shines is on smaller thinner parts especially on thin stainless and aluminum. That stuff can be done without a foot pedal but a foot pedal makes a huge difference on that type of welding. Also in production were you are welding different thickness of material and different joints, you don't have to constantly change your amps just turn it up high and use whatever you need.

[Otto Nobedder]

I learned without a foot pedal, welding as thin as sch. 10 stainless. I was so accustomed, I took two weld tests (and passed), one with a foot pedal, one with a thumb dial, both with HF start available, and I set the machines to panel-amps and lift-arc.

It wasn't 'til I was doing sch. 5 and .049-wall tubing that I learned to use remotes.

Do what works... Results are hard to argue with.

Steve S

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Thanks everyone for the input. I reckon you guys are all on the money. The weld procedure idea is one that i thought of... With the machine set 150 amps, everyone welds at that. But with a foot pedal, i might use full pedal where as another guy might get and adiquate weld at 1/2 pedal, thus leading to a weld out of procedure specs.
Maybe the bosses of the time didnt want em, so they never got a look in.

Anyway, as otto said, you can argue with results so if it works it works.

All good, thanks people.

Mick

[TamJeff]

No foot pedal here either. When I started where I work now, they had one and the guy looked like the karate kid with one foot in the air trying to weld overhead while standing. I brought the switch in from my machine at home for the machine I was going to be using. 6 months goes by and I am pumping work out, mainly because of the super fast tacking and set up times and then running full out on the weld up.

Finally, I get him to try it and he still says he doesn't know why he didn't believe it would work. Yes, the finger switch does liberate the feet which is needed when climbing or standing and if a lot of your work is out of position. It's nice not to have to worry with it. I like having both on the same machine.

[fisher]

Since I started with my TIG about 18 months back I have pretty much used the pedal and I would say become too reliant on it and not not setting good values on the machine. Even doing the karate kid thing at times and I know it is not practical to be doing this so I will be learning to TIG with a torch switch as soon as I get one set up. If I get good with the switch then the pedal may get limited use I think. I find it a pain to use due to awkward positioning a lot of the time.

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Cool as, Id like to talk to our leading Aluminium guy about it, That seems to be a place that they really shine. But he has left now and also he was a bit of D/H
PS Has anyone ever rigged up a foot pedal stand for welding standing up so that they had a solid bit to stand on and pressed the pedal with their heel?

Mick

[awill4wd]

Mick, maybe the prices we get gouged by the welding companies here in Oz has something to do with it.
My OTC machine at work probably wouldn't be an easy one to fit a pedal to but I was quoted prices of $1000+ for a foot pedal on my Kemppi MLS 2300 I use at home.
For that price I'm happy to use the MiniLog or 4T trigger selection on my machine.
The vast majority of my Tig welding has been without a foot pedal but where I work after hours the boss has pedals on both his Kemppi MLS 2300 and a remote wireless pedal on his Miller Dynasty 350.
I've grown to like the pedals and most of the welding we do there is Aluminium so cranking the heat in on startup and backing off the pedal as you progress works really well.
Regards Andrew, also from Oz.

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

I think the kempiis are dear no matter what. We run migs 400s and fastmigs and Mls 300. I heard the fast migs were about 7 grand. Far out??? We definitely dont get that much value out of them. 1.2 S6 and stainless flux cor, not really using any of the features. As well i heard the replacement torch for on of the tigs was around 800 bucks. wow, oh and be careful, i was told there are parts in the torch connection to the machine that cannot be fixed if they break.Whole new torch required. Crazy.

Anyway,

welcome to the forum and thanks for you input.

Mick

[awill4wd]

Hey,

I think the kempiis are dear no matter what. We run migs 400s and fastmigs and Mls 300. I heard the fast migs were about 7 grand. Far out??? We definitely dont get that much value out of them. 1.2 S6 and stainless flux cor, not really using any of the features. As well i heard the replacement torch for on of the tigs was around 800 bucks. wow, oh and be careful, i was told there are parts in the torch connection to the machine that cannot be fixed if they break.Whole new torch required. Crazy.
Anyway,
welcome to the forum and thanks for you input.
Mick

Thanks Mick, it's good to be here.
I had bought a few Tig fingers and indeed the T shirt off Jody and I noticed his latest video talking about the site forum so here I am.
I'm on a few others but I tend to be a bit of a lurker and only really getting involved in Tig related issues.
I know what your saying about the Kemppi's, in some ways they've been smart (just like Fronius) in making the torch connection specific to their company but it's very frustrating you just can't buy a generic dinse socket torch and plug it in.
Apart from that the machine is brilliant, and I think we are pretty lucky here in Oz to get these (and other) machines and not get locked into the blue vs red arguments I so often read on the other forums.
Cheers Andrew.

[Otto Nobedder]

Echoing Mick, Welcome!

I hadn't considered the price-point on remotes... The Miller-branded foot pedals we use are around $400 US. The weldcraft thumb remotes are about $150.

I always use a remote on aluminum, as well as any stainless thinner than sch. 40. (I used to do sch. 10 without, and had no problems, but the thing's just so damn convenient! ) I do a lot of sch. 5 and tubing down to .049.

I like the signature line regarding TIG and gravity... I had a safety man ask me if I should be tied off for a weld I was doing, despite being below 6'. I asked if he'd ever seen the children's movie, "Whinnie the Pooh, and Tigger, Too?"

Tiggers bounce!

Steve S

[awill4wd]

Echoing Mick, Welcome!
I hadn't considered the price-point on remotes... The Miller-branded foot pedals we use are around $400 US. The weldcraft thumb remotes are about $150.
I always use a remote on aluminum, as well as any stainless thinner than sch. 40. (I used to do sch. 10 without, and had no problems, but the thing's just so damn convenient! ) I do a lot of sch. 5 and tubing down to .049.
I like the signature line regarding TIG and gravity... I had a safety man ask me if I should be tied off for a weld I was doing, despite being below 6'. I asked if he'd ever seen the children's movie, "Whinnie the Pooh, and Tigger, Too?"
Tiggers bounce!

Steve S

Thanks for the welcome Steve.
Most of my welding during the day is done on my inverter OTC AVP300 (Japanese) Tig machine which would have to be around 12 years old now I suppose.
It doesn't have the features the newer machines have but I have to admit the AC balance control is even better than my friends Dynasty 350.
There is no AC frequency adjustment however which I miss compared to my Kemppi and other newer machines.
My day job is on Sprintcar chassis' so a lot of our work is thin wall 4130 Chrome/Moly tubing so like you I get to weld some pretty thin tubing. .028" is about as thin as I've gone but .049" and thicker is common.
I also do all the Aluminium welding and most of the stainless welding at work.
I did toy with the idea of buying a Dynasty 350 with full Tigrunner package and shipping here to Oz but finances and the planets didn't align but it's still on my wish list.
My "gravity" quote in my sig is about how I love the way we as Tiggers can weld out of position and the weld just hangs there without falling out in heap of crud.
I do like your comment about "Tiggers bounce" I'll have to remember that one.
Cheers Andrew from Oz.

[Otto Nobedder]

Andrew,

So you weld a lot of 4130...

I hear conflicting information on this... I'm told when you don't have the facilities to normalize, that E80-S2 is the better rod, when you can, at best, do PWHT.

What do you normally use on 4130, and how do you post-weld treat it?

Thanks,

Steve S.

[TamJeff]

Since I started with my TIG about 18 months back I have pretty much used the pedal and I would say become too reliant on it and not not setting good values on the machine. Even doing the karate kid thing at times and I know it is not practical to be doing this so I will be learning to TIG with a torch switch as soon as I get one set up. If I get good with the switch then the pedal may get limited use I think. I find it a pain to use due to awkward positioning a lot of the time.

You can hook up a switch to your torch and keep the pedal too. When you are using the pedal, intermittently change over to the switch when it seems like a comfortable opportunity to do so. Even if you just tack with it at first you will get a feel for it pretty quick.

[awill4wd]

Andrew,
So you weld a lot of 4130...
I hear conflicting information on this... I'm told when you don't have the facilities to normalize, that E80-S2 is the better rod, when you can, at best, do PWHT.
What do you normally use on 4130, and how do you post-weld treat it?
Thanks,
Steve S.

Steve, because of the relatively small diameter and thin wall tubing used, the motorsport industry (here) as a whole do not either pre heat or post heat.
There are exceptions but generally it's not considered an issue and that is in both Speedway and Circuit racing.
We've seen chassis' that are claimed to have been heat treated and some that have claimed "vibratory" stress relieving but in the main they break at the same spots that non heat treated chassis' break.
For filler wire we use ER70S-2 or sometimes we'll use cut down LW1 Mig wire (ER70S-6) in smaller wire diameter sizes.
ER70 wires are within the acceptable range of wires and provides a bit more ductility than you would expect from the ER80 series wires.
We weld it without any special attention and find it welds just as you would expect a high quality steel to weld.
I guess in a perfect world then normalising would be ideal but the costs involved would prove to be prohibitive in my opinion.
Regards Andrew from Oz.

[Otto Nobedder]

Thanks for the reply, Andrew,

That's much of what I wanted to know. I'm considering a homebuilt aircraft, and have several options, including wood and aluminum, but the engine cage will most certainly be 4130.

I'm absorbing as much as I can from anyone with experience.

[awill4wd]

Thanks for the reply, Andrew,

That's much of what I wanted to know. I'm considering a homebuilt aircraft, and have several options, including wood and aluminum, but the engine cage will most certainly be 4130.

I'm absorbing as much as I can from anyone with experience.

We are not "accredited" aircraft welders although we are very experienced with 4130 welding but we have welded aircraft components in the past with "supervision" from an accredited welder who knew we were capable of the job.
Experimental aircraft are different and basically anyone can do it and we've done quite a bit of this in the past.
One of the trickiest structures I've ever welded was on a gyrocopter which was all very small and thin 4130 tubing coming into multiple cruciform joints (one joint had 12 tubes coming into the one area)
Unfortunately for this job, the guy who was building it had a pacemaker for his heart so any arc welding was out and he had to oxy weld and tack it all together and the oxidisation of the welds and tacks created a nightmare scenario when I had to Tig weld over everything.
I still get the shakes when I think about it .
What I found that did help though was to create a dam out of Aluminium tape at the rear of the cruciform joints to trap the Argon and to constantly move it as required.
Seeing your posts on the type of work you do, you'll have no trouble with 4130. I tend to think it welds more like Stainless steel rather than Mild steel.
Cheers Andrew from Oz.

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Do you have any photos of your work? I like the thought of welding roll cages, The last line of defence and all that. Good call on the kempiis, all bells and whistles but you need to be able to use it, to make them worth it, Id love to use pulse at work but we dont have procedures for it.

Mick

[awill4wd]

Hey,

Do you have any photos of your work? I like the thought of welding roll cages, The last line of defence and all that. Good call on the kempiis, all bells and whistles but you need to be able to use it, to make them worth it, Id love to use pulse at work but we dont have procedures for it.

Mick

Sorry Mick, I've never really worried about taking photos at work as it's just a 2 man show (my boss and I).
We have been talking lately about maybe getting a website up on the things we do so we will definitely have to get some photos going on some of the intricate things we get asked to do.
Where I weld after hours has a website http://trikfab.com.au/ but it hasn't been updated for quite a while.
We get involved in some pretty tricky high power turbo cars there.
Cheers Andrew.

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Awesome, it must be nice to have people drool over your work (not literally though, lol) I work at a place its expected to perfect but no one really notices when it is. Im up in Bendigo.

Mick

[fisher]

Since I started with my TIG about 18 months back I have pretty much used the pedal and I would say become too reliant on it and not not setting good values on the machine. Even doing the karate kid thing at times and I know it is not practical to be doing this so I will be learning to TIG with a torch switch as soon as I get one set up. If I get good with the switch then the pedal may get limited use I think. I find it a pain to use due to awkward positioning a lot of the time.

You can hook up a switch to your torch and keep the pedal too. When you are using the pedal, intermittently change over to the switch when it seems like a comfortable opportunity to do so. Even if you just tack with it at first you will get a feel for it pretty quick.

Thanks TamJeff, that makes good sense, torch switch is ordered, see how I go.

[TamJeff]

The switch is a great option if you have to do a lot of spontaneous assembly. In my work, you often have to invent ways to clamp things in place on the fly. This can include string and tape or parts just balancing on clamps. Most times, an ideal position would be lost if having to consider the foot pedal. It's nice to be able to just walk up to something, press a button and get a quick tack.