[DougW]

Was reading an article by Mike Sammons on thefabricator.com web site about tungsten.

I remember the recent dialog here on the usage of Thoriated tungsten in A/C aluminum welding applications. This article seems to counter the general consensus that Thoriated tungsten is not the best choice for A/C aluminum welds.

"Thoriated (Color Code: Red)
Thoriated tungsten electrodes (AWS classification EWTh-2) contain a minimum of 97.30 percent tungsten and 1.70 to 2.20 percent thorium and are called 2 percent thoriated. They are the most commonly used electrodes today and are preferred for their longevity and ease of use. Thorium increases the electron emission qualities of the electrode, which improves arc starts and allows for a higher current-carrying capacity. This electrode operates far below its melting temperature, which results in a considerably lower rate of consumption and eliminates arc wandering for greater stability. Compared with other electrodes, thoriated electrodes deposit less tungsten into the weld puddle, so they cause less weld contamination.

These electrodes are used mainly for specialty AC welding (such as thin-gauge aluminum and material less than 0.060 inch) and DC welding, either electrode negative or straight polarity, on carbon steel, stainless steel, nickel, and titanium.

During manufacturing, thorium is evenly dispersed throughout the electrode, which helps the tungsten maintain its sharpened edge—the ideal electrode shape for welding thin steel—after grinding. Note: Thorium is radioactive; therefore, you must always follow the manufacturer's warnings, instructions, and the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for its use."

[Coldman]

You can always find someone to counter anything, doesn't mean it's right.
Fact is thoriated can be used for ac aluminium tig. Just that it doesn't last as long as better choices on higher currents. Thin aluminium requires less amps so thoriated probably would be ok. Then there's the health risk...

[Spartan]

My take on using thoriated: There's better options that perform as good or better, and cost the same or less, so why use it?

Now, if you suddenly came into possession of a bunch of thoriated for cheap or for free, then it may be worth using, but even then I would probably just sell it all on Ebay if it were me.

[Spartan]

TBH, I see thoriated as now being obsolete. The only groups that still have a justification for using it, IMO, are larger firms that either still have a large supply of it to be used up, have supply contracts for it which have not yet expired, or have not yet updated their welding procedures to include some of the more contemporary oxides.

Not sure why people keep talking about it so much. It's old technology which has been replaced, IMO. Out with the old, in with the new.

[LtBadd]

Diamond Ground Products not only has it(2%) but also a 4% thoriated tungsten

[VA-Sawyer]

Does that mean you can get cancer twice as fast?

[TraditionalToolworks]

Does that mean you can get cancer twice as fast?

What it really means is that anyone making an excuse why red tungsten doesn't work for them with aluminum is doing just that, making an excuse.

[DougW]

Does that mean you can get cancer twice as fast?

What it really means is that anyone making an excuse why red tungsten doesn't work for them with aluminum is doing just that, making an excuse.

You're probably right. I did weld a lot of stuff prior to discovering I'm not supposed to use the red for high amp a/c aluminum welding.

I know you're not fond of blurry photo but it is what it is. This is a Red tungsten 3/32 electrode after I attempted to weld aluminum at high amperage.... But yeah... probably just me.

20200511_120335 by Doug Wei, on Flickr

[LtBadd]

I know you're not fond of blurry photo but it is what it is. This is a Red tungsten 3/32 electrode after I attempted to weld aluminum at high amperage.... But yeah... probably just me.

20200511_120335 by Doug Wei, on Flickr

Good pic actually to show why thoriated CAN be used for AC aluminum but is best not to unless that's all you have

[LtBadd]

Does that mean you can get cancer twice as fast?

Yes instead of 500 years it could be ...say 213 years or there abouts

[TraditionalToolworks]

Good pic actually to show why thoriated CAN be used for AC aluminum but is best not to unless that's all you have

I wonder how the likes of Jody Collier and Wyatt Swaim have used it on projects I wonder???

Not saying it's the best tungsten for that purpose, but people have used it and get it done.

I still feel as I said, anyone using it as an excuse for not being able to weld aluminum is doing just that, making an excuse. I pick and choose who I take advice from, everyone should do the same.

EDIT: And Richard, let's lay some facts down here, you've been welding a heck of lot longer than I have.

Not long ago most all tig welding was done with either green "pure" or red tungsten. In fact, Jody Collier discovered 2% lanthanated when looking for a replacement for 2% thoriated. Are you saying that the aerospace industry never used a red tungsten to weld aluminum? For the most part people were using green on transformers and red on inverters. Didn't people weld aluminum with inverters prior to many of the modern inverters?

Both Jody and Wyatt have said in their videos that they have used red to weld aluminum.

There's a lot of unknowns just to say a red tungsten can't weld aluminum, the amps, the gas, the stick out, and even the material being welded or how thick the material is. Some aluminum is not even weldable. This is to say, just generalizing and saying red tungsten is not for aluminum is not very helpful, IMO.

My welder manual has red tungsten listed for aluminum, it lists 3/32" red as being good for 70-100 amps. If someone decides to run 200 amps through such a tungsten, would that be smart? Would that be the fault of the tungsten being red?

Why does my welder manual list red for aluminum if it doesn't work? It also only lists 1/8" for 90 - 140 amps, and 3/16" tungsten for 125-225 amps. The amperage does overlap, obviously since there more than just the size of the tungsten involved.

And finally, why have other people welded aluminum with red tungsten and had success? Did they just get lucky? Beginner's luck? I think not, in fact I rather see it the other way around...it's the guys with experience that were able to make it work. There's a lot of settings on most welders. As was mentioned in the previous thread by the kiwi2wheels, many material takes some time to fiddle with but once figured out it will work just fine.

[Spartan]

Good pic actually to show why thoriated CAN be used for AC aluminum but is best not to unless that's all you have

I wonder how the likes of Jody Collier and Wyatt Swaim have used it on projects I wonder???

Wyatt "Mr. TIG" Swaim is the most annoying welding educator I have ever encountered.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Wyatt "Mr. TIG" Swaim is the most annoying welding educator I have ever encountered.

That's fine, if I was a welder I'd love to get the gigs he gets. He is VERY annoying. I hate that little dance thing he does on his video opening trailers...but he does seem to know what he's doing and I've seen him on some of Jay Leno's videos fixing vintage autos for him.

I didn't say I liked his personality.

Please see the comments I added to my previous post, I'd really like to get it out on the table. Let's have a discussion.

[LtBadd]

Before lanthanated was popular zirconium was the go to for AC welding, works very well and provides x-ray quality welds

[v5cvbb]

Before lanthanated was popular zirconium was the go to for AC welding, works very well and provides x-ray quality welds

Was there Tig welding before lanthanated?

[TraditionalToolworks]

Before lanthanated was popular zirconium was the go to for AC welding, works very well and provides x-ray quality welds

Richard,

What about when green and red were primarily used, was zirconiated (brown? white?) available and used back then? My welder manual doesn't list it so I guess it's not supported for aluminum, but red is.

What did you use? From what you're saying you never used red?

In my welder manual it lists green/red/purple for aluminum.

[LtBadd]

Before lanthanated was popular zirconium was the go to for AC welding, works very well and provides x-ray quality welds

Was there Tig welding before lanthanated?

it's a little blurry, these details

[LtBadd]

Richard,

What about when green and red were primarily used, was zirconiated (brown? white?) available and used back then?
What did you use? From what you're saying you never used red?

In my welder manual it lists green/red/purple for aluminum.

I used thoriated for Dc and zirconium (brown) for AC, yes zir was available. I did use pure as well but never for a aluminum test that was going to be x rayed, too much of a chance of tungsten inclusion and zir held up much better.

My welder manual doesn't list it so I guess it's not supported for aluminum, but red is.

Since lanthanated (and other blends) has taken the place of thoriated and zirconium they're being written (?) out of history, burn your manual!!

[TraditionalToolworks]

Since lanthanated (and other blends) has taken the place of thoriated and zirconium they're being written (?) out of history, burn your manual!!

That's exactly what everyone wants to do about the confederate flag and statues that have been in place for centuries. It's exactly like the Japanese tried to do after WWII, remove what they did from the history books so the kids wouldn't learn of that. I think our history makes us who we are, and we can't change it by turning a blind eye.

Thoriated was the most popular and used tungsten once upon a time, it has a lot of good qualities for tig. Shouldn't we understand those good qualities rather than just erasing it from the history books? People still use it today, PG&E in my area I'm told uses only red tungsten. Maybe that has changed, I don't know, and maybe the information I was given was not accurate, that I don't know either. All I can do is gather what information I have at hand and try to make the best of it.

Kind of irony here, I have a Chinese welder, but the manual is actually not too bad and I do have a few things I reference. One is the table that shows the range of amperage for various tungsten types and diameter. I actually find it useful, it can at least give me an idea of where I should be targeting my amperage and for what type of material. All vendors would be good to give such a chart with their machines. Whether the chart provides the exact type of tungsten you prefer or not, it is not a bad chart.

[Spartan]

Since lanthanated (and other blends) has taken the place of thoriated and zirconium they're being written (?) out of history, burn your manual!!

That's exactly what everyone wants to do about the confederate flag and statues that have been in place for centuries. It's exactly like the Japanese tried to do after WWII, remove what they did from the history books so the kids wouldn't learn of that. I think our history makes us who we are, and we can't change it by turning a blind eye.

Thoriated was the most popular and used tungsten once upon a time, it has a lot of good qualities for tig. Shouldn't we understand those good qualities rather than just erasing it from the history books? People still use it today, PG&E in my area I'm told uses only red tungsten. Maybe that has changed, I don't know, and maybe the information I was given was not accurate, that I don't know either. All I can do is gather what information I have at hand and try to make the best of it.

Kind of irony here, I have a Chinese welder, but the manual is actually not too bad and I do have a few things I reference. One is the table that shows the range of amperage for various tungsten types and diameter. I actually find it useful, it can at least give me an idea of where I should be targeting my amperage and for what type of material. All vendors would be good to give such a chart with their machines. Whether the chart provides the exact type of tungsten you prefer or not, it is not a bad chart.

TTW - I don't think anyone is trying to erase thoriated from the history books, I just think it is becoming obsolete...a natural part of progress.

Kind of like shapers in a machine shop. Sure, they can still get the job done today, but they have largely been superseded by more efficient machines. But they're still in the history books.

[LtBadd]

TTW - I don't think anyone is trying to erase thoriated from the history books, I just think it is becoming obsolete...a natural part of progress.

Kind of like shapers in a machine shop. Sure, they can still get the job done today, but they have largely been superseded by more efficient machines. But they're still in the history books.

Maybe I should have used [sarcasm]....[/sarcsm] markups

[TraditionalToolworks]

Maybe I should have used [sarcasm]....[/sarcsm] markups

Actually no need for that, I saw the sarcasm in your telling me to burn my manual. (I do have it in a PDF )

No sarcasm in my response though. I don't even have any red tungsten, but if I did I would use it where and when I needed it.

I was smart enough to take the advice of Jody, so have all blue tungsten.