[BillE.Dee]

Jeryco,,,,,try to keep the coupons bigger to avoid heat soaking them. the aluminum will take a higher amp selection to get the puddle going then taper off using the foot pedal. You want the tungsten to be cozy close to the material and the torch almost perpendicular to it. "Push" the puddle. Just try running beads without filler til you get the feel of the machine. Add filler to flat surface for a while, work on butt joint then work on a lap joint. the corner stuff is a bit harder when learning. That fancy material looks like you are melting the base metal but not cutting thru the anodizing to get your puddle.

[Thatkid2diesel]

And as Jody always says: "Once you go wet, you never regret".

Note: Jody has never actually said that.

Hahahahaha... I'm dead [emoji23][emoji23]



Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[sbaker56]

Although Oscar is right about potentially introducing contaminants unless you use a special coated flap disc made for aluminum, that's why I still suggested using one even if you had only had a regular clean unused disc. It'll at least make sure there was no coating, anodizing or anything else beyond regular oxide that could be contaminating the weld results.

Honestly, I suspect there may be a multitude of little issues that might not be so significant or hard to fix alone, but are compounding together, running cold and slow, any contaminants on the aluminum, any potential gas leak no matter how minor, variation in torch height, an AC balance of 30%,and other things I'm not thinking of. What we do know however is ultimately the issue here is contamination, why we don't know, but it's an obvious case of it. Now that can be atmospheric contamination(poor gas shielding) or metal contamination (anodizing, or other contaminants not fully removed from aluminum) which may or may not be solved by an increasing the cleaning action in the AC balance or increasing heat and therefor travel speed to proper levels.

That might not be anything new that everyone else hasn't said, but it does still mean you (almost) definitely have a defined limited list of issues to systematically work through from easiest to hardest. Put all the issues that you either can't quickly or reliably address towards the end like for example a bad bottle of gas, or technical issues.

So here's what you might do, recheck all fittings and torch with soapy water for any leaks, if you've verified they've all been fixed, next adjust your machine for around 160 amps, and try setting the balance a little more towards the cleaning side, so perhaps 40% instead, or even 50%, though expect your tungsten to ball much more, adjust your travel speed to what's appropriate to the new settings, if it seems much too hot, chances are you're either way too slow or need to cool the plate instead. Next I would try to either order some clean aluminum welding coupons online or specifically ask for some weldable aluminum from your local LWS/metal supplier if you have one, to ensure the issue isn't you welding on some crappy cast and or otherwise impure aluminum blend, you could also visit your local community college/welding school if you'd like, they'll probably give you a piece, or even let you bring the machine if they're bored enough.

Assuming none of that fixed or significantly improved the issue and the local school didn't offer to let you bring it in, Then either your torch height and or angle is extremely off and your best bet would be to buy a cheap fixed shade 10-12 lens and film your arc with a camera for us to see and last of all try a fresh bottle of argon and if comfortable tighten down the gas fittings inside the machine, which can be loose and have given me the same issue once. But I don't know your level of technical knowledge and opening the machine can potentially be extremely dangerous.

[jeryc0]

That would have been awesome but unfortunately I don't think is possible since I am from Romania, if you wonder why I am writing on this forum...well, all the info about TIG welding I know is from US (forums, videos and welder's manual) and in my country this welding process is used only in factories and professional work shops and I can't get as much info, in fact when it comes to hobbyists like me, probably is not used at all, anyway, I've done some more tests and this are the results:

IMG_1561.JPG (48.86 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

I know it hurts the eyes but for me is better than ever

let me start from the beginning, first I used another o-ring to the cap and stopped that leak, also used a gas lens with the same collet used with collet body and 3/32 tungsten and around 20 chf (10l/min) gas flow:

IMG_5158.JPG (30.4 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

IMG_1000.JPG (32.07 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

IMG_1561.JPG (48.86 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

then I checked the filler rods and indeed those had a layer of something on them, unfortunately I didn't get an abrasive sponge to clean them but I used some sand paper then wiped with acetone also I noticed that the 5356 is 2 mm and not 2.4 mm (3/32") as I ordered and as marked on the pack so clearly I have very cheap rods

IMG_4794.JPG (41.07 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

here is a difference between 4043 sanded and 5356 as received:

IMG_4096.JPG (64.15 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

then I cleaned that diamond plate and run some beads with both filler rods but cranked up the Amps

IMG_7388.JPG (40.31 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

IMG_8013.JPG (44.95 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

then I took some fresh 3 mm (1/8) Al clean it with stainless steel brush and acetone and tried again with both filler rods, each rod on one coupon:

IMG_1560.JPG (24.74 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

IMG_1580.JPG (29.95 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

IMG_2224.JPG (35.64 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

IMG_2361.JPG (36.84 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

then I tried a but joint on the first posted picture, what I can say is that I am getting somewhere and the gas probably is good too, I don't have much left in the bottle so I'll have to change it anyway (hmm refill it actually) , I'll have to try with an abrasive sponge tomorrow (clean the rods) and see if I get any difference but for sure I have to spent some more time under the hood

IMG_6199.PNG (286.89 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

after all those tests I never dipped the tungsten but in the end it balled up and it was blue :

IMG_0761.JPG (30.29 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

I don't have enough words to express how much I appreciate all your help, thank you, thank you very much!

[Oscar]

That torch is just not set-up to my liking. I'd fix it.

[jeryc0]

is it something wrong or missing? before these tests I was using the stock collet body

IMG_7339.JPG (30.08 KiB) Viewed 1396 times

what do you suggest I should fix?

[jeryc0]

Although Oscar is right about potentially introducing contaminants unless you use a special coated flap disc made for aluminum, that's why I still suggested using one even if you had only had a regular clean unused disc. It'll at least make sure there was no coating, anodizing or anything else beyond regular oxide that could be contaminating the weld results.

Honestly, I suspect there may be a multitude of little issues that might not be so significant or hard to fix alone, but are compounding together, running cold and slow, any contaminants on the aluminum, any potential gas leak no matter how minor, variation in torch height, an AC balance of 30%,and other things I'm not thinking of. What we do know however is ultimately the issue here is contamination, why we don't know, but it's an obvious case of it. Now that can be atmospheric contamination(poor gas shielding) or metal contamination (anodizing, or other contaminants not fully removed from aluminum) which may or may not be solved by an increasing the cleaning action in the AC balance or increasing heat and therefor travel speed to proper levels.

That might not be anything new that everyone else hasn't said, but it does still mean you (almost) definitely have a defined limited list of issues to systematically work through from easiest to hardest. Put all the issues that you either can't quickly or reliably address towards the end like for example a bad bottle of gas, or technical issues.

So here's what you might do, recheck all fittings and torch with soapy water for any leaks, if you've verified they've all been fixed, next adjust your machine for around 160 amps, and try setting the balance a little more towards the cleaning side, so perhaps 40% instead, or even 50%, though expect your tungsten to ball much more, adjust your travel speed to what's appropriate to the new settings, if it seems much too hot, chances are you're either way too slow or need to cool the plate instead. Next I would try to either order some clean aluminum welding coupons online or specifically ask for some weldable aluminum from your local LWS/metal supplier if you have one, to ensure the issue isn't you welding on some crappy cast and or otherwise impure aluminum blend, you could also visit your local community college/welding school if you'd like, they'll probably give you a piece, or even let you bring the machine if they're bored enough.

Assuming none of that fixed or significantly improved the issue and the local school didn't offer to let you bring it in, Then either your torch height and or angle is extremely off and your best bet would be to buy a cheap fixed shade 10-12 lens and film your arc with a camera for us to see and last of all try a fresh bottle of argon and if comfortable tighten down the gas fittings inside the machine, which can be loose and have given me the same issue once. But I don't know your level of technical knowledge and opening the machine can potentially be extremely dangerous.

I've just seen your post, thank you for advices, I have to say that I am getting to better understand the hight and the torch angle, and everything else you suggested, that because I've got a lot of good suggestions here on this topic and it seems I am getting the feel of it. I did checked for leaks from bottle to welder and torch connections to welder and cap - cup , but not inside the welder and not the hose or the hose to torch connection, I'm not sure about the base material, I'll have to find something I know is good and same story for filler rods and if after that I have the same results I'll have to open it up and check those as well

[TraditionalToolworks]

That would have been awesome but unfortunately I don't think is possible since I am from Romania, if you wonder why I am writing on this forum...well, all the info about TIG welding I know is from US (forums, videos and welder's manual) and in my country this welding process is used only in factories and professional work shops and I can't get as much info

First, don't feel bad about being in Romania, there's nothing about geographic locale that doesn't allow people from joining a public forum on the Internet. That is the entire reason for having such a forum. We have people from all over the world and you shouldn't feel bad about being in Romania whatsoever.

let me start from the beginning, first I used another o-ring to the cap and stopped that leak, also used a gas lens with the same collet used with collet body and 3/32 tungsten and around 20 chf (10l/min) gas flow:

There could be something mismatched with your consumables. That cup doesn't look right for standard consumables, which I think you might be using. Or possible the insulator is wrong, notice how the center of the insulator is dished, that's for the standard consumables which have a small dome on the end, so it inserts into that dish portion of the insulator.

Your cup looks like it is the type that is used on a gas lens, and it needs a flat portion to sit against, unless your insulator allows the cup to go over the center and fits firmly against the shoulder on the insulator. I can't tell by your pictures.

I noticed that the 5356 is 2 mm and not 2.4 mm (3/32") as I ordered and as marked on the pack so clearly I have very cheap rods

That shouldn't really matter too much, that should be around .080", which is larger than 1.6mm but smaller than 2.4mm. I don't know if we can get that size filler here, but the only difference is you'll need to feed just a tad more into the puddle than you would with 2.4mm. Not a show stopper in any way. Make sure your "cheap rod" as you call it is cleaned the best you can with acetone. Clean it multiple times with a fresh area on your cloth.

One other comment, your tank is painted green, in America most often we put oxygen in green tanks, but that's not a hard/fast rule, AFAIK. I'm going to figure your tank has 100% argon in it, and since you're getting the bottle replaced make sure they give you 100% argon.

after all those tests I never dipped the tungsten but in the end it balled up and it was blue

I would still question the setup, if air is getting into the weld and/or if the cup/insulator are correct. They may be, I don't know. I have not seen an insulator and/or cup combination like that myself.

[jeryc0]

thank you very much for your kind words and advices!

regarding the torch, I have stock parts such as these:

IMG_9219.JPG (30.55 KiB) Viewed 1392 times

and on the fresh Al, that I believe is 5218 - maybe, there is this code on the label, I used a gas lens, but they gave me a gas lens, that insulator that I suppose it goes after torches insulter because other wise if I remove torches insulator cup will not reach insulator, a cup to fit that gas lens and they told me the collet will fit, the one that I have, I'll take some pictures tomorrow. On the diamond plate I tried with gas lens and collet body and the result was more or lens the same, maybe a little better with the gas lens, I'll get back tomorrow with more pictures of the torch and its accessories

IMG_7772.JPG (34.07 KiB) Viewed 1392 times

IMG_5158.JPG (30.4 KiB) Viewed 1392 times

regarding the bottle, I ordered 100% Argon and on the bottle is engraved Argon but again, nothing to prove with, just the invoice, it didn't came with no label or document..

[TraditionalToolworks]

regarding the torch, I have stock parts such as these:

The strange thing, as has been noted several times above, when you don't use filler your bead looks ok, but when you do there is something wrong.

I would start to question your filler possibly.

Does that #5 cup seat inside the dome area of the insulator? Even so, that wouldn't make sense that the bead is ok with no filler by when you introduce it there's a problem.

and on the fresh Al, that I believe is 5218 - maybe, there is this code on the label

I am not familiar with it, and I don't see it on this chart. Maybe you have the wrong number.

https://www.hobartbrothers.com/download ... i_1lOo.pdf

I think you need to find some 6061 aluminum to be safe, you've wasted a lot of time not getting your filler to work. Can you find some 6061 in Romania? It must be plentiful, it's welded all around the world.

[Oscar]

is it something wrong or missing? before these tests I was using the stock collet body

IMG_7339.JPG

what do you suggest I should fix?

I was referring to the gas lens setup. Before I open my big mouth, can you take a picture of the gas lens insulator from the rear, but at a slight angle?

As for being from another country, we could care less, as long as your English is good, which it is! Many times people from other countries are better forum participants than those who are from the US. Some [American people] post in our US forums with the most god awful grammar, spelling, and complete lack of punctuation. You don't do that. You make an excellent effort to communicate.

Also, are you spending 10 or 15 minutes cleaning your aluminum parts prior to attempt to weld them (careful it might be one of those trick questions, so try to 'read between the lines' )

[TraditionalToolworks]

I was referring to the gas lens setup. Before I open my big mouth, can you take a picture of the gas lens insulator from the rear, but at a slight angle?

Oscar,

How could you use a gas lens with standard consumables? Does that makes sense?

I thought a standard collet body allowed the gas to flow through the body/collet to the work.

[Oscar]

I was referring to the gas lens setup. Before I open my big mouth, can you take a picture of the gas lens insulator from the rear, but at a slight angle?

Oscar,

How could you use a gas lens with standard consumables? Does that makes sense?

I thought a standard collet body allowed the gas to flow through the body/collet to the work.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I must have misunderstood your comment, it's impossible to use a standard collet in a gas lens, AFAIK.

[BillE.Dee]

I have a 26 torch and the little O ring on the back cap is installed right at the top of the brass threads where the plastic and threads meet. I use a bit of slobber to lube the o ring before inserting to the torch. the collet body shown in the same picture would take the longer collet (split or wedge type). The insulator will be dependent to the one sent with the machine. I can't say he is unknowingly mixing the parts. As far as I have used, the insulator in the pic is for the original alumina cup and not for the gas lens, which I have found to require a flat insulator instead of the tapered one. A road trip would be great, but the drive would be a task under the ocean.

[Oscar]

it's impossible to use a standard collet in a gas lens, AFAIK.

Where'd you hear that? The 17/18/26 gas lens collet bodies use the same collets as standard consumables.

[TraditionalToolworks]

it's impossible to use a standard collet in a gas lens, AFAIK.

Where'd you hear that? The 17/18/26 gas lens collet bodies use the same collets as standard consumables.

Not on my setup, must be because I have a stubby.

I'll let you help him get it corrected.

[Oscar]

Not on my setup, must be because I have a stubby.

I'll let you help him get it corrected.

Yup, using stubby parts changes everything.

[Arno]

after all those tests I never dipped the tungsten but in the end it balled up and it was blue :

IMG_0761.JPG

That means you need more post-flow and perhaps a little more gasflow. I usually run around 7 to 8 L/min (15/16cfh) on alu with an 8 size gas lens with about 10 second post-flow.

It turns blue when it's still hot and the gas turns off so the oxygen from the air gets to to the electrode and oxidises/discolours it.

It should stay dull grey. Will get a little dirty looking on alu because of the heat going into it, but it should not get colours.

Bye, Arno.

[BillE.Dee]

jeryco, go back to stock setup. make sure you use all the stock parts and learn the machine before you add filler. the picture of where you added the filler you will see where you used the 3/32 filler and then the 1/16 filler. you will note that using the 3/32 filler you were able to cool the puddle and make dimes in the bead where the other one flattened out and couldn't cool the puddle. you have to learn how to walk down the street, chew bubble gum and balance a tennis ball on your nose all at the same time while controlling heat input.
as far as the o ring seal at the back cap, you shouldn't need 2 orings. IF it is making bubbles, the argon is being pushed out and should not be allowing anything in. I would highly doubt there would be a venturi effect.
put your stick out about 1/4 inch. turn the gas post flow up to at least 7. Balance at 30 or a bit less with REAL clean aluminum. The freq will sort of adjust the width of the arc,,,higher freq will give you a narrow arc. Get the tungsten cozy close and the torch almost perpendicular, slam the pedal, get your puddle and have at it while still controlling the heat. practice running beads for a while.

[jeryc0]

I think I found the problem, check out this last test on same type of Aluminum:

6E8E8BD0-C11F-4F37-B06D-8C16D56F047A.jpeg (56.67 KiB) Viewed 1345 times

These are done with stock collet and collet body (no gas lens) same 3/32 tungsten, no 7 cup, stick out same as cup diameter, eye balled and then is getting tricky, I used same settings as before, 160A, 100 hz, 0.3 preflow, 7 or 8 postflow (I increased a little the post flow), square wave and 33% balance cleaned very well the filler rod with an abrasive sponge Then wipped with acetone and cleaned the edges on 2 coupons for a but join with SS brush and then wiped with acetone, the whole process took more than 15 minutes for sure and the result was this (marked with yellow):

CE1E48DA-B226-4B76-B8E4-FF79D811F4B4.jpeg (91.83 KiB) Viewed 1345 times

Oh before that I checked the torch for leaks and I still had some leaks at the cap even with those 2 o-rings so I’ve placed another o-ring between the 2 already installed ( yes, now I have 3 o-rings) and finally the leak stopped.

When I’ve seen that poor result I’ve decided to crank the gas a little to 12-13 l/min (probably it wasn’t necessary) and the balance to 40 % and then I run beads with both 4043 and 5356 rods and the results are on the first picture, the shinier beads are with 4043 filler but the really interesting thing is ( the game changer I believe) the rest of the material was not cleaned and the rods as well were not cleaned at all so I came to a conclusion:
- that in the attempt of cleaning I am contaminating the material, maybe when acetone wiping because I was using paper towels and not a cloth so maybe some debris from paper was remaining on the material or rod due to friction
- my travel speed was to slow, I was always putting to much heat in the material waiting for the puddle to appear to add the filler but now with 160 A I press the pedal to ground and instantly I can see the puddle, add some filler and move then release a little the peddle and move and dip and move and so on
- I am always out of position, I put all the weight to my left arm (torch hand) and when I try to move I am stuck, I have to lift the torch so I am changing the distance, when I do that I sometimes loosing the position of my right arm and I add the filler way up near the tungsten out of the shield and that’s why there is some black smoke on those beads and I also think, one time, I touched the filler to the very tip of the tungsten

I don’t know if stopping that leak had anything to do with this result, or the extra gas but for sure I have to go clean material and rods version 2 and try again , the other 99% was my fault completely, my technique, lack of practice and impatience.

Before this test I made a small video about the torch accessories, is actually about 9 minutes long and don’t know if it worts spending the time, maybe just for a opinion regarding the torch, maybe I should try and get a better torch head and collets and cups...here is a link of it: https://youtu.be/n535N3zCqzY

And one last detail, that extra post flow kept the tungsten silver with a small ball on the tip, no more blue...

[jeryc0]

jeryco, go back to stock setup. make sure you use all the stock parts and learn the machine before you add filler. the picture of where you added the filler you will see where you used the 3/32 filler and then the 1/16 filler. you will note that using the 3/32 filler you were able to cool the puddle and make dimes in the bead where the other one flattened out and couldn't cool the puddle. you have to learn how to walk down the street, chew bubble gum and balance a tennis ball on your nose all at the same time while controlling heat input.
as far as the o ring seal at the back cap, you shouldn't need 2 orings. IF it is making bubbles, the argon is being pushed out and should not be allowing anything in. I would highly doubt there would be a venturi effect.
put your stick out about 1/4 inch. turn the gas post flow up to at least 7. Balance at 30 or a bit less with REAL clean aluminum. The freq will sort of adjust the width of the arc,,,higher freq will give you a narrow arc. Get the tungsten cozy close and the torch almost perpendicular, slam the pedal, get your puddle and have at it while still controlling the heat. practice running beads for a while.

I’ve just seen your post but this is more or less what I actually did, thank you very much to you and everyone else that had even read my posts and had a thought abut helping me out!

[Oscar]

As you can see, cleaning is of the utmost important with Aluminum TIG welding, as well as gas purity. The more time you spend properly cleaning, the better the results will be. Always do one final wipe-down with acetone and a good cloth to make sure no oxides that were initially removed, remain on the surface.

[BillE.Dee]

You're closing in on it ,, George ,, be patient and IF you've watched Jody's videos, you will hear him say "the 3 C's in TIG welding,,,clean, clean, clean". I would probably add a fourth C ... close and make sure you aren't suffering from any type of breeze around your work area. The argon coverage means a lot while tig welding. Also, sometimes you may notice, even after cleaning there may be some "pepper" coming up in the puddle. Some times you may draw contaminants from the back side of the material. Patience and practice --- lots of those 2 will get you up and running.
enjoy.
gramps.

[TraditionalToolworks]

George,

I just watched your video, and I'm surprised that all you've been told is clean, clean, clean.

You have mismatched consumables, that's your problem.

My suggestion:
1) Ditch that crap gas lens and the insulator.
2) Use only the standard consumables that came with your torch.
3) Take the extra o-ring off from your back cap.
4) Remove the back cap entirely.
5) Use the standard insulator with the standard collet body, standard collet and standard cup.
6) With the insulator on your torch, screw the collet body in all the way and hand tighten.
7) Add your collet in the top of the torch.
8) Insert your sharpened tungsten through either rear or front of torch head.
9) Add the back cap and tighten with the tungsten sticking out appropriate length for cup being used.
10) Set gas to appropriate level for cup.

Cleaning the material is not your issue, IMO, you have created the problem by mismatching consumables and are most likely sucking air. You should NOT be using 2 insulators.

My $0.02.