[av8or1]

Hi Jodi-

Jerry here. I am a subscriber to your YouTube channel (for years actually) and bought a few products over that time from weldmonger.com. Just registered for the forum tonight because I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask. This seemed like the best place to do that given the guidance on the aforementioned website and the occasional mention of your forum in your videos.

So essentially the question(s) I have surround the topic mentioned in the title: welding body panels in an automotive application with the TIG process. I suppose that the first question I have is "why is that?" I mean you don't see that done much. Primarily it's MIG that is used; and I'll have to throw myself into that pool as well because I have done that many times over the years. My primary hobby isn't welding actually, it's automotive restoration. However recently I've been doing more fabrication related projects, admittedly. I digress.

If someone were to pose the question of why I don't use TIG when doing auto body work as a hobby restoration guy, my answer would be "time". MIG is just quicker, easier and simpler to use in this particular application context. At least in my opinion it is. The few times I've attempted TIG (using the equipment of other people, I don't have a setup just yet) I remember thinking that I'd avoid doing that in any of my projects.

Yet here I am.

To speak openly, I suspect that I'm merely experiencing a desire to stretch my abilities a bit and to infuse new excitement in pending projects. Not that doing so is a bad thing, 'just sayin'. I don't use aluminum nor stainless much, so I haven't bothered to source a TIG machine. I do lots of stick and MIG, just never ventured down the TIG road. Watched a lot of videos on the subject, to include yours, read a book about it, etc. Just never had my own rig, as the saying goes. And now that I find myself doing more fab work, perhaps it's time to get just such a box.

So this is becoming rather long; I'll cut it off at the pass a bit. I've already posed the first question. The second is in regard to the procedure that I would follow. I would like to get your feedback on the matter.

These panels are your usual automotive type, sheet metal, mild steel, 18 gauge, etc. These two panels in particular will be butt-welded. With the material being rather thin, you can't weld it per se (as y'all likely know) so it's merely a bunch of tack welds until the panel is "sewn up", with cooling-off periods in-between. However the thought I am entertaining is to follow your basic formula of using a TIG box to do the tacking instead; following your formula of increasing the amperage higher than you'd weld it at, then just applying a series of fast bursts with no filler wire. I do have concerns regarding this approach, but again, this is long, so I'll stop there.

Anyway, feedback is appreciated.
Thanks!
Jerry

[cj737]

Jerry - Jody doesn’t operate on this forum, at least not that I’ve seen.

Autogenous welds (no filler) on thin carbon steel will be very susceptible to cracks. If you want to TIG these in that manner, the fit must be darn near perfect and you won’t get much/any penetration. Plus, as you put heat into the parts, the fit up will move (expand). What is likely better would be to use Silicon Bronze filler, ever so slight gap. TIG or MIG filler available. Less heat input, no corrosion of the filler, and you get a perfectly strong weldment for the application.

I use some 0.035 MIG wire as spacers, then SilBr as TIG filler to apply my tacks. Remove the spacers, weld it up. Keep the heat just enough to melt the filler and you’ll be done in no time. Flap disc it smooth, then body work for paint. You don’t need a high end TIG to do this. Heck, even a 120v box will work. A foot pedal to control amperage is ideal, or a torch-mounted amp control button (whatever your dexterity prefers). You’ll be operating the TIG in the 30-50 amps range depending upon filler size.

A nice to have feature once tacked up is pulse. To run longer beads between tacks, pulse the arc as this helps reduce the overall heat input and allows faster production. Not required, but nice to have. 100% pure argon, a decent gas lens with an #6-#8 cup and you’re off to the races. Keep magnets away from the TIG arc as it plays hell on you.

Good luck-

[av8or1]

Hi cj737-

Ok then, thank you for the reply. I wasn't aware that Jody doesn't have a presence on the forum. Interesting. That said, I'm open to advice from anyone regarding TIG, as I have only theoretical knowledge at present. 'Never actually held a torch.

Yeah, cracking and penetration were at the top of my list of concerns, as was bead profile and heat input.

Allow me to reiterate your recommendation so that I can see if I have absorbed it correctly: the approach would be to use some MIG wire as a spacer (I suppose anything of the same thickness could work), where there is an actual space between the panels and not just a valley between them upon which the wire rests. You then use a TIG torch in one hand with a SiBr filler rod (or wire, not sure what they're referred to in the TIG world) tack it into position. Then switch to a steel wire (presumably ER70-S6) and weld as normal. This means that you don't need to weld the seam with a whole-bunch of tack welds as you would with MIG. Instead you can lay a continuous bead (really? Wow) with the heat enough to melt the wire and nothing further. This would likely work in only small stretches I'd think, I can't see laying down a continuous bead for long stretches, which is something that it doesn't appear happens much in the TIG world anyway (correct me if I'm off-base about that). Pulsing if possible, which yes, I do understand (and have seen in videos, Jody's included) reduces the overall heat input. My guess based on the rule-of-thumb that I have learned for the amperage was about 40A, but I was planning on relying on some testing to tell me exactly what I should be using with the specific welder that I'll use, as they are all a bit different. Specifically, I am considering the Everlast 255EXT as the box with a water cooler. And that box of course has pulse. I agree that you wouldn't need a high end box for this, but I'd like to get this type of welder with future projects in mind. Ergo a longer term focus than this particular project. Anyway once welded-out you then have the normal fare of body work that follows..

Hmmmmm...a few questions if I may:
1) Why the SiBr for the tacks? I've seen videos of SiBr being used with a TIG torch for brazing, which is a different animal from welding. Jody did that in fact IIRC. My guess would be reduced heat input at the critical stage of first "weldment" to avoid panel shift, but ...
2) Can you really lay a continuous bead like this?
3) Would a lay wire approach be a decent option? It seems easier but might apply too much filler in this context, dunno.
4) I am considering this TIG thing in this scenario partially because I am curious if it can/should be done and also partly because I like the idea of focused heat input, which TIG provides over MIG. Also, if done properly, it seems like there would be less to grind off afterwards, not to mention a cleaner weld. Are those notions on-par or off-base?

Thanks!
Jerry

[cj737]

My original post was to use SilBr entirely, not switch back to ER70 for welding. That’s the only misunderstanding.

You can get SilBr wire for your MIG too. Same principle: tack with spacers. Weld with pulse (if available).

No, you can’t then weld the entire panel straight away because even with SB, you’ll still put a fair bit of heat in. But it will be far less.

Why SilBr? Because you don’t molten the panels, only heat them enough to melt the filler. Kind of like really hot soldering.

[Oscar]

Since you've never held a TIG torch, here's to a rude awakening when welding < 1/16". May you have lots and lots of scrap practice before.

Oh and I have a roll of 0.023" silicon bronze mig wire if you'd like to take it off my hands.

[av8or1]

My original post was to use SilBr entirely, not switch back to ER70 for welding. That’s the only misunderstanding.

You can get SilBr wire for your MIG too. Same principle: tack with spacers. Weld with pulse (if available).

No, you can’t then weld the entire panel straight away because even with SB, you’ll still put a fair bit of heat in. But it will be far less.

Why SilBr? Because you don’t molten the panels, only heat them enough to melt the filler. Kind of like really hot soldering.

Ah ok, so in the big picture analysis then you are recommending not to weld the panels but rather SiBr braze them together. Interesting. I could definitely see how that would introduce even less heat than a long series of tack welds. Good to know that my instinct was correct: I did not think that one could lay down a continuous bead on a panel of that thickness. I'd imagine that if I had tried it I would have discovered that fact readily. Though I doubt I would have attempted it, as my instinct would have said "no way".

I digress. Ok then, I think I'll press ahead with the idea, first giving it a go on some practice panels to see how it comes out in the wash.

Thank you again for the feedback, I appreciate it.

[av8or1]

Since you've never held a TIG torch, here's to a rude awakening when welding < 1/16". May you have lots and lots of scrap practice before.

Oh and I have a roll of 0.023" silicon bronze mig wire if you'd like to take it off my hands.

Hey Oscar (and fellow TEXAN),

Oh sure, I have more panels than I know what to do with, all of the same gauge as are on the actual target vehicle, no problem. I would have done such practice anyway, mostly as a get-to-know-my-welder exercise. A few years ago I purchased an Everlast 275p for MIG and stick. 'Spent maybe two months off-n-on getting to know the welder before I did anything "real" with it. Most of that was determining which settings would be just-right for a rather substantial build, using heavy components and SMAW. I wanted to see how it would run a 6010, so that was where my focus was. I dialed that in and then moved on to the 7018. Did that and had what I needed for the project, which came together pretty well. The notion at work for this automotive related weld project would follow suit.

Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it.

When the machine arrives and I get to work, I'll post my results along with pictures in order to pass on whatever I learn to others; pay it forward dontchaknow.

Y'all take care,
Jerry

[Oscar]

Good to know, because a lot of beginners just dive right into the actual project on their very first attempt, and 5min later are posting a thread about "what am I doing wrong?"

We need more Texans here so we can get a weld-o-rama going sometime in the future! I'm way down south, I'm betting your towards the North or East?

[av8or1]

Good to know, because a lot of beginners just dive right into the actual project on their very first attempt, and 5min later are posting a thread about "what am I doing wrong?"

We need more Texans here so we can get a weld-o-rama going sometime in the future! I'm way down south, I'm betting your towards the North or East?

Really, they do that? Wow. Would never consider such an endeavor. Frought with peril beyond my need for understanding.

Central TEXAS actually, Austin area. Would be interested in a weld-o-rama, always looking to learn from those who know more than I!

[Oscar]

Good to know, because a lot of beginners just dive right into the actual project on their very first attempt, and 5min later are posting a thread about "what am I doing wrong?"

We need more Texans here so we can get a weld-o-rama going sometime in the future! I'm way down south, I'm betting your towards the North or East?

Really, they do that? Wow. Would never consider such an endeavor. Frought with peril beyond my need for understanding.

Central TEXAS actually, Austin area. Would be interested in a weld-o-rama, always looking to learn from those who know more than I!

They may not say so, but I can tell, because we were all there.

Ah, so you're not too far off, I have family in Austin. One day when all this stay-in-place is over maybe we can get something going!

[VA-Sawyer]

You said you were thinking about getting a 255EXT. I have one that is just 2 years old. About six months ago, it started acting up on AC. I called NEVERLAST for help getting it fixed. They made up a bunch of poor excuses, blamed it all on me, then refused to fix it. I will NEVER buy anything from them again.
If it dies in the first 3 or 4 months, they seem to honor the warranty, but good luck after that. If you don't mind a chance of having a useless $3000 boat anchor after 6 months, then fine, I can't afford that. You have been warned.

[av8or1]

You said you were thinking about getting a 255EXT. I have one that is just 2 years old. About six months ago, it started acting up on AC. I called NEVERLAST for help getting it fixed. They made up a bunch of poor excuses, blamed it all on me, then refused to fix it. I will NEVER buy anything from them again.
If it dies in the first 3 or 4 months, they seem to honor the warranty, but good luck after that. If you don't mind a chance of having a useless $3000 boat anchor after 6 months, then fine, I can't afford that. You have been warned.

Gheez! Really??? I bought my 275p in 2018; sure hope nothing goes wrong with it in the next 3 years!

If you don't mind, could you tell me more? What did they blame on you? And what have you done to get the box back online (or is it even working now)?

Thanks!

[VA-Sawyer]

18 months ago,I was very happy with the welder. Then, on AC, the arc began to have starting problems. It also would get unstable when I was tapering off. Over time it got worse, but it still works great on DC. It has an excellent DC arc with great fine control. The AC used to be similar till it started acting up.
When I called them, and reported the unstable arc on AC, they first tried to blame the control pedal. I said that I didn't think that was the problem, as it worked so well in DC mode. Then they claimed the problem was my electrode was getting hot and causing 'high resistance'. Again, I disagreed. The starting problem was the same doing a quick restart, or starting with a cold electrode. Then he claimed I had a bad ground connection. It was barely getting warm after extended welding, so I didn't think that was the problem either.
I was then told that I was too much of 'a know it all' , and therefore couldn't be helped. That was the limit of my patience. It was very obvious that they had no intention of actually wanting to fix the problem. I was dealing with Mark Lug, aka LUGNUT! He is the head of their customer support , so no use trying to take it up the ladder.
I think the problem is in the HF starting circuit, on the AC side of things.

There is a member here known as Spartan. He recently bought their heavier welder. I believe it was a 325EXT but not positive of that. Anyways, it developed a problem shortly after he got it. He called customer support and they sent him another unit. As I understand it, he is happy with their service. It isn't his first Green welder either, and he tends to speak well of them. Perhaps he will add his own comments to this thread.
He is one of the ones, here on this forum, that I tend to listen to.

Oscar is another one worth listening to. We do disagree on a few items, like electrode stickout, but different techniques sometimes work better for different folks. He prefers using a certain red welder that gets pretty good reviews. I'll let him tell you all about it. He does like 'bragging' on them.

I will send you a PM with my phone number. We can continue this via voice or text, if you want.

[Oscar]

Thanks for the compliment VA Sawyer. Yea I do have my preferences, but to each his own as it is their money. I'm happy with my gear.

[av8or1]

Wow. Alright, interesting story. To speak openly I've dealt with Mark in the past too. He did seem a bit gruff when I spoke with him by phone. I was attempting to get an answer regarding the amperage value for the circuit breaker that I planned on using for my 275p. He was squirrely, didn't want to give an answer, spoke about liability and was generally ... I dunno. Just a bit of a strange phone call. I ended up going with 50A based on the spec sheet, and nothing in regard to his feedback. I was disappointed in that, but whichever. My welder was working, so I let them off of the hook.

I have considered HTP in the past too. Kinda curious to see that Oscar is so heavily into them! My first impression was that I liked their customer service much better than Everlast. Some had said that the machines are made in the USA, however I was doubtful of that. What I did like was that I received answers to questions when I asked. It wasn't that way with Everlast.

The only problem with HTP was that the cost of their machines exceeded the rough equivalents of Everlast. And so I went with the 275p. That said, I am at-this-moment in the market for a plasma cutter. I looked at the comparable products and this general formula still appears to hold. The Everlast 62i and the Microcut 875SC run about $1050 and $1750 respectively as of 8/24/2020. For that reason I will likely go with the 62i, but we'll see.

As for TIG boxes, I'd like to go water cooled and was planning spending about the $3000 that you mentioned. An Everlast 255EXT with a water cooler runs about $2500 while the Intertig 221 with a cooler runs about $3200. So approximately the same $700 diff as the plasma.

And so I'll have to give it some thought.

[cj737]

HTP is a re-branded Stel, made in Italy and beyond. Like nearly EVERY electronic product on the planet, components are likely sourced from Asia. Where things are assembled doesn't matter a whole lot, but where they get serviced post-sale should. HTP will provide domestic service for their branded machines. Lincoln, ESAB, Miller and a few others have warranty centers in some areas.

Buy once, cry once.

[Oscar]

Kinda curious to see that Oscar is so heavily into them! .

Don't read too much into it and draw false conclusions as some people have. I do like to openly promote the products that I like, but I am in no way, shape, or form affiliated with any vendor/manufacturer (contrary to what a lot of people think). Some people just can't fathom the fact that a smart lil ol' boy from Texas worked 3 jobs to put himself through college, earned a degree in Mathematics & Physics, and put in blood sweat and tears into the classroom, and now has a very generous career one notch short of assistant principal for the last 6 years, and thus has lots of "freedom" to invest in lots of toys from all types of hobbies. Not bragging, but I feel like I have to explain myself every so often; some people think "hobbyists" fall into one and only one stereotype.

[TraditionalToolworks]

[removed response]

[Spartan]

Yup, the green weenies have worked out well for me. I've had three of them so far, and only a problem with the one (a 350EXT) which was promptly replaced by Everlast at no charge to me.

[Oscar]

I vote to keep political discussions/"warnings" out of this forum entirely. As evidenced from other other forums, they lead to nowhere.

[Spartan]

I second that vote. Arcs, not politics.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I vote to keep political discussions/"warnings" out of this forum entirely. As evidenced from other other forums, they lead to nowhere.

I actually agree, and would appreciate you staying on topic. Your post is leaning off topic and I was responding to it.

I don't care what degrees you have or what you do for a living.

[av8or1]

Yup, the green weenies have worked out well for me. I've had three of them so far, and only a problem with the one (a 350EXT) which was promptly replaced by Everlast at no charge to me.

How far were you into your ownership when you made the warranty claim? Not to diverge from the topic much, but it is related in that I need to choose a TIG welder that I can depend on working in order to do any project where TIG is needed or desired, including the upcoming auto body panel work...

[Spartan]

Yup, the green weenies have worked out well for me. I've had three of them so far, and only a problem with the one (a 350EXT) which was promptly replaced by Everlast at no charge to me.

How far were you into your ownership when you made the warranty claim? Not to diverge from the topic much, but it is related in that I need to choose a TIG welder that I can depend on working in order to do any project where TIG is needed or desired, including the upcoming auto body panel work...

About 2-3 months, so just outside of the 30 day return period. FWIW, they did initially attempt to have me pay to ship the unit back to them for a lengthy service/return period. But they ultimately opted to ship me a new unit on their dime and also emailed me a prepaid label to ship the busted unit back to them.

Good service in my book.

[av8or1]

Ok thanks. I haven't heard of many folk making claims later on in their ownership, at least not successfully. Concerning. I'll definitely need to give this more thought...

Speaking of thoughts...I've had one comparison that I've been assuming "must be" true, but it seems worthy of asking since I have little experience with TIG. So this TIG brazing thing ... it doesn't melt the base metal and introduces less heat than a normal TIG weld. That's to the good. How about a comparison to a MIG weld? I've concluded that the brazing would also be less heat input since the MIG weld will melt the base metal. Correct? And is the diff in heat input between a MIG brazing with SiBr wire versus a TIG brazing with SiBr filler rod/wire just a wash, ergo roughly equal?

Thanks!