Wow, holy shit, what a welcome! Y'all a tough crowd. The post approval (after several days) e-mail went to my spam folder, so I thought this was another Vertical Scope forum that was scooped up and fired all of the admins, but I suppose not. I got zero notifications about this thread either, which is why I returned today out of curiosity, and hello there!
To recap, I was not trolling, but in retrospect I can see how some might think that; no, I am a software guy armed with countless hours of welding videos watched while falling asleep and next to no practical experience with welding, outside of tacking together a seat mount for a racing sim cockpit with a 20 year old 32 amp harbor freight flux core welder, successfully but poorly.
Yes, I was 100% serious with what I said before, and no, I wasn't mistaken, at least according to the settings on my machine, I was at 100 amps, 100 hz AC, 30% cleaning/EP. Oh, I was welding it on top of a warped 1/16th" steel sheet on top of my wood work bench that caught on fire after I tried a couple more times, so the next day I picked up a $70 welding table from harbor freight which is fine for my purposes, and hasn't yet caught fire.
I made large strides since I posted this through trial and error, and I made it a lot further than I thought I would after applying critical thinking to my initial problem, which was heat management. I picked up an offshore-brand inverter-based AC/DC TIG welder (LOTOS, should have done more research but at this point I threw away the box and I am committed) and the pedal is more of an on/off switch than a potentiometer, which makes me think everyone suggesting to throw 150 amps at the problem is out of their minds.
This is what I did with some thinner gauge aluminum (1/16th, 5052 I believe) after lowering the amperage to 30 amps and placing a 1" * 2" chill block underneath at the advice of a friend who does this for a living, earlier today:
Not quite there yet, but not setting fire to my house either. Progress maybe?
cj737 wrote:Looks like you have numerous problems.
Are you 100% certain hare using 100% Argon? TIG requires it, MIG uses 75/25.
What welder? 30% Balance can be interpreted as EN or EP. it makes a difference.
100 amps is insufficient to weld 1/8” aluminum. You need at least 140 amps to get a puddle.
What size cup are you running?
Collet body or gas lens?
Is your torch assembled correctly?
Arc length could be very long. Torch angle could be off. Filler metal could be wrong. Etc, etc.
After fixing my initial problems, I am pretty sure the gas I got from Robert's Oxygen is legit 100% argon.
I verified the balance by reversing it to 70% (max) and immediately balling the tungsten.
On 1/8" aluminum, 50 amps is plenty to get a pool going and dunk filler, and on 1/16", 30 amps is plenty to get a puddle going and 35 amps is enough for a fillet joint.
I am on a 5 cup with a collet body, I couldn't get any gas to flow with my gas lens setup (probably assembled it wrong, will need more research on this) and there was yellow cake uranium all over everything as the electrode turned into fine dust and coated everything.
Arc length was way too long at first, probably 3/4 of an inch (now closer to 1/4 of an inch or less) and angle was sharp until I got more comfortable. Filler was 4043 I think.
Jakedaawg wrote:Wow.
Yup!!
G-ManBart wrote:First question...why 5052? 5052 has some oddball characteristics like you can't weld it without adding filler, and might not be a great choice for learning. That's about all I know about it, so maybe one of the experts will chime in with more.
It would be helpful to know exactly what machine you're using, so things like percentage of cleaning/balance will make more sense.
You might want to check the manual and see how they reference the cleaning percentage. You should try something around 20-30% electrode positive (positive is the cleaning action).
100A is definitely too low, so crank that up some. On that topic, not to argue a minor point, but you don't really need 140A to get a puddle on 1/8" aluminum. That's a reasonable setting to use, but it will work fine with less so it's not quite the absolute rule as suggested. I frequently run a drill on 1/8" aluminum where I set the machine to 125A and easily get a puddle in 1-2 seconds. There are other factors at play as well so you really just have to see how many amps it takes on your machines to get a puddle started with a few seconds (even changing things like frequency can alter that a bit). I only say that as a clarification...not trying to ruffle feathers.
Also, can you show how the torch is set up and assembled? It's possible to put a collet in backwards that will allow some gas to move, but not enough to work on aluminum.
How are you cleaning the material you're trying to weld?
In my estimation, having a new machine with a poor dynamic range on the foot pedal and a new person along with no kind of heat sinking was probably the biggest factor here. After adding a chill block I haven't come close to burning through, though I have had 1/16" sag a couple of times when I got bold. I'm not sure the alloy had as much to do with it, pretty sure it was the operator
.
FYI I was able to get a puddle going on 1/8" with 50 amps no problem (after 3 or 4 seconds of initial heating with the arc), so either the inverter control for the machine I have is insanely miscalibrated, or y'all with high dynamic range pedals back off more than you think.
I went through 3 torch setups, and as I said before the gas lens was a disaster though I will revisit, right now I am on a small/stubby front standard with a collet body, I think a 26 torch, it is rated for 200 amps.
Spartan wrote:There's a lot to unpack here.
I'd recommend Step 1 to be getting bigger coupons. Stick with 1/8" thick, but add some larger X/Y dimensions. You're completely saturating the part with heat and melting the inner aluminum, while the oxide layer stays intact. This is why a lot of it looks like a wrinkled bedspread.
Step 2, up your amperage as others have mentioned. Form a puddle as quickly as you can (usually within 1-2 seconds or so) and start moving.
Ding ding ding (on first part). Instead of larger coupons, to the same net effect putting a heat sink/chill block behind my work piece fixed most of these problems, as did lowering my amperage to 50 for 1/8" and 30 for 1/16", where I was able to make things looks like god awful, terrible, nasty welds, but welds, not Freddy Kruger's face!
On the second part, when I tried with higher amperage after correcting my setup, it still warped and melted everything, so lowering it was actually what gave me better results
.
BillE.Dee wrote:get some 6061 coupons 1/8 thick. get a stainless steel brush and brush the material in one direction to remove the oxide layer. Set your amps at 150 to get the puddle started in 1-3 seconds and work the pedal as needed. Keep the torch perpendicular to the material and up to 10 degree tilt while PUSHING the puddle. Keep the tungsten close to the material. Don't worry about adding filler till you get comfy with moving the torch. Move, stop, move, stop. Aluminum WILL absorb heat in a hurry. You will have to cool it down so it doesn't get heat saturated.
keep us posted as to your advancement.
gramps
I forgot to mention earlier, but yes, I didn't really clean these initial test pieces, not that I think that would have made any difference. Everything I've done since has been acetoned, brushed with stainless, then acetoned again anywhere I planned on welding, and I noticed a big difference for how long it takes to get a shiny puddle.
I still need to work on my torch angle as I definitely get over 10 degrees, but I am working on it.
My biggest problem was that *the entire thing absorbed all the heat*, then went molten, it was nuts. With a chill block I haven't had this issue again.
BugHunter wrote:Looks to me like you're on DC... Yea, I know you said all that about AC and balance...
Haha that's what I thought too, but it wasn't the case.
bplayer405 wrote:Your choice of material is not the problem. Some pics of your settings, the welder connections and gas type would be helpful. I started tig welding on 5052 aluminum and got quite different results.
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If necessary I will be glad to share more, but I'm 100% argon from a reputable reseller of gas, and my welder only allows you to plug the torch in on the gas side, so I am definitely not polarity inverted. I do appreciate the analytic process though!
Oscar wrote:hotspoons wrote:I watched like 30 hours of youtube videos on the subject over the last couple of weeks, so I felt like I was totally prepared /s.
So I set my brand new tig welder to AC, 100 amps, 100 hz, 30% cleaning balance, set pre and post flow to .1 and 3 sseconds respectively, ~12cfh gas, and started stacking dimes on a 1/8" 5052 coupon. I ramped up ever so slightly with the pedal to strike an arc, then formed a shiny pool, then...
Rich, you were watching the wrong videos IMO.
- AC: Yes
- 100A: Why? You need more amperage for aluminum. 150A+ to initiate, then use pedal to modulate.
- 30% cleaning: Yes
- Pre-flow 0.1s: Not sure where you got this. I use 0.4 or 0.5 to get past the initial turbulent PPPSSSHHHH
- Post-flow 3s : Not sure where you got this. You need 2-4x what you use for steel since the tungsten gets wayyyy hotter on AC. This depends on the duration of the weld as well, since tacks won't heat up the tungsten too much, but it's also not too convenient to be changing the post-flow all the time between tacking and running beads.
- 12 CFH Gas: Maybe. You did not mention what size/style nozzle you are using.
- Ramping up the current slowly: yes when first learning how to observe the formation of the aluminum weld pool. (later on when joining parts, this technique can sometimes be tricky).
Nothing can be deciphered from that melted blob. Go back to square one. You need to be able to establish
one single clean shiny puddle. Don't even think about filler right now. If you can't get a single, proper clean weld puddle, you will never be able to successfully/properly add filler.
I left the pre and post-flow settings as they were from the factory, and I have yet to TIG still, but I read a few places to use 1 second of post flow for ever 20 amps, didn't know there was a difference for AC and DC, good tip, thanks!
5 cup, 15 cfh flow, stubby cup after trying a few setups and failing with a lens.
Like I said earlier I didn't realize this devolving train wreck of a thread was happening in the background and I kept trying blissfully unaware, and I made some progress like going back to square one and figuring out how to make a pool and not make a molten mess in the process; then filler; then simple joint; etc.
But I appreciate the feedback, and I wish I read this a couple of weeks ago!
tweake wrote:Oscar wrote:hotspoons wrote:I watched like 30 hours of youtube videos on the subject over the last couple of weeks, so I felt like I was totally prepared /s.
So I set my brand new tig welder to AC, 100 amps, 100 hz, 30% cleaning balance, set pre and post flow to .1 and 3 sseconds respectively, ~12cfh gas, and started stacking dimes on a 1/8" 5052 coupon. I ramped up ever so slightly with the pedal to strike an arc, then formed a shiny pool, then...
Rich, you were watching the wrong videos IMO.
- AC: Yes
- 100A: Why? You need more amperage for aluminum. 150A+ to initiate, then use pedal to modulate.
- 30% cleaning: Yes
- Pre-flow 0.1s: Not sure where you got this. I use 0.4 or 0.5 to get past the initial turbulent PPPSSSHHHH
- Post-flow 3s : Not sure where you got this. You need 2-4x what you use for steel since the tungsten gets wayyyy hotter on AC. This depends on the duration of the weld as well, since tacks won't heat up the tungsten too much, but it's also not too convenient to be changing the post-flow all the time between tacking and running beads.
- 12 CFH Gas: Maybe. You did not mention what size/style nozzle you are using.
- Ramping up the current slowly: yes when first learning how to observe the formation of the aluminum weld pool. (later on when joining parts, this technique can sometimes be tricky).
Nothing can be deciphered from that melted blob. Go back to square one. You need to be able to establish
one single clean shiny puddle. Don't even think about filler right now. If you can't get a single, proper clean weld puddle, you will never be able to successfully/properly add filler.
+1
the other thing that trips people up is the tungsten size, type and tip shape.
2% Lanthanated is a good all rounder, but anything thats recommended for AC should work.
3/32 is fine. 1/16 is to small.
grind to to look like a crayon. you want a blunt angle for aluminium.
I'm on that blue stuff, 3/32", and I've experimented with sharp and shallow grinds, but at this point I don't think it is making much of a difference. I balled it and tried it that way, and while a little more unwieldy, was nice to use if I got nice and close to the material.
BugHunter wrote:Op has not been back for 5 days now. Odds are he figured out the welder was really on DC, not AC. Or some other such TIG 101 issue. For all we know there might not have even been a cup on the torch. It's hard to tell.
Another possibility I thought about is it could just be someone starting an account to troll people here. Post up some ridiculous thing and see what solutions people come up with, knowing full well virtually anyone who welds aluminum would rarely if ever see something like that because they would never set the welder to DC and light up. Had I not done it intentionally just to see what happens, I wouldn't have recognized the melted base metal with a completely undisturbed oxide layer laying on top.
It's the internet, you just never know...
Hmm, no, this was someone who got all their brand new 42nd birthday present to themself shit setup for the first time expecting disaster and who got a totally unexpected kind of disaster. But I assure you I'm not trolling, maybe some of this is welding 101 (but with a title like I had, wouldn't you expect it?), and in my experience asking for help while clearly labeled as such normally gets most of what I got above, a bit of this, and more of what I see below, but its all in good fun. Cheers.
eelman308 wrote:BugHunter wrote:Op has not been back for 5 days now.
Another possibility I thought about is it could just be someone starting an account to troll people here. Post up some ridiculous thing and see what solutions people come up with, knowing full well virtually anyone who welds aluminum would rarely if ever see something like that because they would never set the welder to DC and light up. Had I not done it intentionally just to see what happens, I wouldn't have recognized the melted base metal with a completely undisturbed oxide layer laying on top.
It's the internet, you just never know...
Well, that would suck
Oscar wrote:...which is why I rightfully declare an askhole when I see one, but only if they have been MIA for days, and I always take it back when and if they return.
I'll wait a few days.
EDIT that was rude of me before, I'll give Oscar the benefit of the doubt.
BugHunter wrote:Oscar wrote:...which is why I rightfully declare an askhole when I see one, but only if they have been MIA for days, and I always take it back when and if they return.
I'll wait a few days.
Sadly, we don't have to apologize very often.
Hey BugHunter, why don't you go join Oscar?
tweake wrote:BugHunter wrote:Op has not been back for 5 days now. Odds are he figured out the welder was really on DC, not AC. Or some other such TIG 101 issue. For all we know there might not have even been a cup on the torch. It's hard to tell.
Another possibility I thought about is it could just be someone starting an account to troll people here. ..
just keep in mind admin are really slow to authorise accounts. i suspect many people give up waiting and go elsewhere.
other than that, its not an uncommon thing on forums anyway.
at least they are not posting back 10 min later complaining that no one has answered their post.
maybe admin can get some more mods to handle those duties. it helps if they are in different time zones as well.
Hey tweake, you are 100% right, plus it ended up in my spam folder and I didn't see my post was approved until weeks earlier. Way better than my experience on other forums taken over by the conglomerate I mentioned earlier.
G-ManBart wrote:tweake wrote:
just keep in mind admin are really slow to authorise accounts. i suspect many people give up waiting and go elsewhere.
He posted, so there wouldn't be a need to wait for an admin to do anything. He posted this on the evening of the 2nd, came back the morning of the 3rd and hasn't been back since. There weren't any replies by the time he came back, so maybe that discouraged him...all I can think of. Of course it's possible he's been back, but wasn't logged in....hard to say.
My post wasn't approved for several days (and the notification ended up in my spam folder) so I didn't bother checking back and figured this forum was derelict from an admin standpoint. But yes, I wasn't encouraged by a long initial post review time, that made me give up after a few days.
sbaker56 wrote:I could see it being a prank honestly, It really does look like someone took an acetylene torch to it or blasted it on DCEN until it turned into a molten mess. We're a bit more laid back here than most places as the welding community has a lot of %#$holes. It's possible he figured we would all give ourselves a heart attack and rush to rip him to pieces and he got bored when we tried to help. It's really hard to say.
Hahaha I wish!
Spartan wrote:He posted on the evening of the 2nd, and the first reply is on the evening of the 5th...so a full 3 days before his post was actually posted. There's no way it was more than an hour or two before replies came in to a post like that once it was visible.
I'd bet that's the issue. Can't blame someone for wandering off permanently when their post isn't even visible for 3 days. And I've seen some that weren't posted for upwards of a week.
It's a shame that the powers that be don't give more attention to this forum...but that is of course their choice to make.
Yes, but I am glad I finally bothered to check back, I am amazed at the feedback I got even though in retrospect it does seem kind of trollish.
walz10 wrote:I’m pretty sure the original post was a prank!! It is kinda funny when you look at it like a prank. Those welds are obviously terrible and they asked “ rate my welds “
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That was meant with sarcasm, but no, sadly, not a prank.
cj737 wrote:walz10 wrote:I’m pretty sure the original post was a prank!! It is kinda funny when you look at it like a prank. Those welds are obviously terrible and they asked “ rate my welds “
Read the paragraphs below the pictures and it's apparent he actually is trying to understand WTF is going on.
Yes, thank you
BugHunter wrote:cj737 wrote:walz10 wrote:I’m pretty sure the original post was a prank!! It is kinda funny when you look at it like a prank. Those welds are obviously terrible and they asked “ rate my welds “
Read the paragraphs below the pictures and it's apparent he actually is trying to understand WTF is going on.
And I posted what is going on. He's welding aluminum on DC. That's what it looks like when you do that.
BillE.Dee wrote:He met another and POOF he was gone.
Which other?
Toggatug wrote:Idk what exactly that is but it reminds me of no gas or really really contaminated gas etc.
Don't know how it'd be possible to weld that much without melting the tungsten to oblivion though.
I kinda wanna try it on Monday now just to see what happens.
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Oh I did the no gas thing, it was crazy, like yellow cake uranium dust all over everything.
