Hello everyone,
All of a sudden I started getting black pepper flakes in my aluminum tig welds.Turned the positive half cycle to max and didnt change much,my tungsten balled up a lot when I did this though so I figure the half cycle attributed to cleaning is there(cant blame that,I hope.Dont want a faulty welder).Figured it could be the torch and went out and got a new one.(no change).Changed regulator,hoses connections and still no change.The only thing I can think of is contaminated Argon because this did start after a cylinder change but I have tried two other tanks with the same results.I guess you can get a batch of contaminated argon.So really my question is would the pepper flakes be a symptom of contaminated argon or should I look elswhere?
Any replies will be much appreciated.
Have you checked your collet and collet body? Is the collet twisted/bulged out to where it could be restricting flow? I suspect bad gas as well and there can be an entire run of it. Also, make sure if your tungsten is balled it's not off center in the cup. I have had more bad argon than I should have by year 2013 and technology being what it is. We have been thru 3 suppliers. All of which had contaminated tanks. It got to the point where the company had to set aside known clean tanks as a group specifically for us and recycle the same tanks to us that we were happy with.
A lot of companies these days are medical etc gas suppliers first, and welding gas/supplies second. I have noticed that the frequency of instances of bad gas has increased noticeably in the last 15 years or so.
Miller ABP 330, Syncrowave 250, Dynasty 300 DX.
Honorary member of the Fraternity of Faded Tee Shirts.
Crappy tungsten. It's only happened once, but I got a batch that either had impurities in it, or on it, and I wasted ten hours sorting it out as it was about last on my list of crap to check.
Turned out we had a "sudden" need, because nobody reported opening the last pack as they should, and suddenly we were out. I don't know if the replacement batch came from HF, or TSC, or NT, but I'm pretty sure it came from China.
Otherwise, I suspect the gas, and possibly moisture in the gas. You can run your gas (downstream from the flowmeter) through a see-through dessicant pack. If it turns purple, it's picking up moisture.
Thanks everyone,
I have changed tungstens,collets etc...,so Im down to gas or the machine.My supllier has the tank now for analyzing so I will know soon if its contaminated or not.Do you guys think maybe the machine could be at fault?My first theory was that the cleaning cycle wasnt working but after turning the balance up and seeing the effects on the tungsten I figured its happening.
Maybe its there but not working(cleaning) properly?
Thanks.
Dane,
Is this happening with aluminum from different sources? (i.e. different sheet or angle or tubing, whatever) My thought was mabe something in the alloy.
As others have said you can and will get argon that's not up to industry standards. This happens mostly because when a cylinder of argon is filled it is filled with about 19 to 49 other cylinders at the same time. The cylinders are all vented down to 0 psi and then a vacuum pulled on them. If "your" cylinder happened to be one that didn't have it's fill line fitting tight during this part of the process it will have sucked in moisture from the surrounding air. The person filling the cylinders would have no way of knowing this until the cylinders are be filled and that fitting would show up as a leak that they can hear. They would then tighten it and continue filling it.
I can tell you from working in the gas industry for the past 18 years that not every cylinder gets analzed unless you request ultra high purity and request a certificate of conformance. If you think that the price of argon is high now, you don't want that to become the standard for all welding gasses. It all takes man power that cost money.
Almost all cylinders are filled in larger facilities off a liguid argon tank that a major player in the industry has supplier to the cylinder fill plant. This liquid is processed to the 99.999% or higher range for the most part,and is certified to that. That is so the cylinder fill plant can use the same tank to fill their ultra high purity tanks off the same liquid. That said if you are getting a say 80 or 125 cf cylinder filled at a smaller LWS then they maybe filing your cylinder by cascading pressure from a bank of 330 cf cylinders, and no vacuum at all was pulled on your cylinder to remove any moisture that was picked up from the atm. when you emptied it.
Sorry for the long winded post, but i don't think most people know or care what all the cylinder goes through until they start getting pepper flakes in their welds. I think most LWS would switch out a cylinder with a replacement if they were asked to. They want to sell you the best quality they can at the lowest price, it keeps them in business.
Dane,
I just thought of something else after I posted. There is no way of keeping moiture from entering your system when your not welding, just physics. But if you haven't already, and you have this setting available on your welder, set your preflow timer up a little and let some gas flow through the torch before you put it over the peice your welding. If not or your using a air cooled rig with a valve you can leave it on for a while to purge any moisture out of the lines.
As Steve mentioned in an earlier post, you can use a 1/4 desecent filter from HF or a local automotive paint supply store to remove and verify that moisture is indeed the issue.
I hope all this babblin' has answered someones question about something.
You've filled in some details in something I always suspected, though my ideas may only apply to some low-budget guys. Since I'm in the same industry as you, but in a different capacity, I had enough knowledge to formulate some theories. I was not aware bottles are evacuated before filling, though it makes sense. On a humid day, it wouldn't take an "audible" leak for moisture to enter a bottle.
I'd speculated that since AR, 75/25, tri-mix, and custom gasses are filled from the same manifolds, an inadequate purge of the manifold could be the culprit. A leak during evacuation makes more sense, as moisture, N2, and O2 would all be drawn into the bottle, at a rate determined by the leak and the time between when the vacuum pump is valved off and the fill valve is opened. A large leak could contaminate the whole manifold, and therefore a "batch" of bottles.
Braehill wrote:Dane,
Is this happening with aluminum from different sources? (i.e. different sheet or angle or tubing, whatever) My thought was mabe something in the alloy.
As others have said you can and will get argon that's not up to industry standards. This happens mostly because when a cylinder of argon is filled it is filled with about 19 to 49 other cylinders at the same time. The cylinders are all vented down to 0 psi and then a vacuum pulled on them. If "your" cylinder happened to be one that didn't have it's fill line fitting tight during this part of the process it will have sucked in moisture from the surrounding air. The person filling the cylinders would have no way of knowing this until the cylinders are be filled and that fitting would show up as a leak that they can hear. They would then tighten it and continue filling it.
I can tell you from working in the gas industry for the past 18 years that not every cylinder gets analzed unless you request ultra high purity and request a certificate of conformance. If you think that the price of argon is high now, you don't want that to become the standard for all welding gasses. It all takes man power that cost money.
Almost all cylinders are filled in larger facilities off a liguid argon tank that a major player in the industry has supplier to the cylinder fill plant. This liquid is processed to the 99.999% or higher range for the most part,and is certified to that. That is so the cylinder fill plant can use the same tank to fill their ultra high purity tanks off the same liquid. That said if you are getting a say 80 or 125 cf cylinder filled at a smaller LWS then they maybe filing your cylinder by cascading pressure from a bank of 330 cf cylinders, and no vacuum at all was pulled on your cylinder to remove any moisture that was picked up from the atm. when you emptied it.
Sorry for the long winded post, but i don't think most people know or care what all the cylinder goes through until they start getting pepper flakes in their welds. I think most LWS would switch out a cylinder with a replacement if they were asked to. They want to sell you the best quality they can at the lowest price, it keeps them in business.
Len
I have tried different sources with the same result.I guess i will just have to wait until these guys analyze the cylinder.Could the machine be faulty?
Thanks
Dane.
Dane,
I can't say with complete certainty that your machine has no faults, but I don't think it's at fault here if it welds in all other regards just fine. I'm no expert on the functions of an inverter welder by no means, but I'm sure there are some people on here who are.
If your welder is also a stick welder you can try to weld on AC and both of the DC modes and see if it has all it's functions. That should tell you if it has a fault in the wiring circuit. But again, I'm no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
Only time I have not had argon issues is when we used liquid argon on a manifold system but you have to have 4-5 welders using it or it freezes up. When Bitech was still in business, my regular cylinders were fine too. Once Bitech got bought out, that marked the start of gas issues and it seemed a new breed of welding supply (middle men) outfits were to keep that condition. Enter imported alloys, square wave and inverter technolgy and the whole works became one unpredictable mess.
The most common fix for welding issues just over 2 decades ago used to be. . ."you need more practice." Now it takes labs and engineering troubleshooters and there is no amount of training in tech schools that can teach one how to weld perfect beads with wandering arcs.
Miller ABP 330, Syncrowave 250, Dynasty 300 DX.
Honorary member of the Fraternity of Faded Tee Shirts.
TamJeff wrote:Only time I have not had argon issues is when we used liquid argon on a manifold system but you have to have 4-5 welders using it or it freezes up. When Bitech was still in business, my regular cylinders were fine too. Once Bitech got bought out, that marked the start of gas issues and it seemed a new breed of welding supply (middle men) outfits were to keep that condition. Enter imported alloys, square wave and inverter technolgy and the whole works became one unpredictable mess.
The most common fix for welding issues just over 2 decades ago used to be. . ."you need more practice." Now it takes labs and engineering troubleshooters and there is no amount of training in tech schools that can teach one how to weld perfect beads with wandering arcs.
Im not absolutely saying its not me,its just that one day everything was fine and the next it wasnt.I guess you can say that about a lot of things in life.
Dane,
Not sure about all the bells and whistles like AC balance and all that since my welder is a vintage early 80's Miller Dialarc HF transformer welder. That's about 20 to 30 years newer than the welders I use at work. They are from the late 50's and still going strong. I thinking by 2020 I might be up to Square Wave.
There are plenty of people on here that are experts on your type of welder and would be better suited to answer welder questions than me. I know about cylinders and the gases because of my job, not from what I've learned teaching myself to weld.
You'll get some input sooner or later from someone here. Some sharp people with a strong desire to help others.
I don't know how critical your welds are but, if I had to be sure that the Argon was not the problem, I would go to a large supplier and get a bottle of ultra high purity Argon (with a C of C) and give it a try to confirm or rule out a cover gas issue.
It's hard to convince folks of this, but a leak in the like won't "blow argon out", it'll "suck air in". It's a function of static vs. dynamic pressure, put in equations by Bournoulle (sp?).
If your gas analysis comes back "good", try this. Mix up soapy water. Take out the tungsten, and shove a rubber stopper in your cup. Pressurize the system end-to-end, and soap-bubble the whole works. Even the back-cap. A broken o-ring here will give you untold grief. Open the machine, if needed (if it has an internal gas valve), and CAREFULLY soap-test the internal connections with a q-tip.
Failing the gas, and the line test, I'll ask, are you using a water cooled torch? There's one issue I've encountered there, three times, and always on HFAC. It always resulted in a complete fail, so I'll leave the details off for now.
Otto Nobedder wrote:IF it's in the machine, it's in the gas line.
It's hard to convince folks of this, but a leak in the like won't "blow argon out", it'll "suck air in". It's a function of static vs. dynamic pressure, put in equations by Bournoulle (sp?).
If your gas analysis comes back "good", try this. Mix up soapy water. Take out the tungsten, and shove a rubber stopper in your cup. Pressurize the system end-to-end, and soap-bubble the whole works. Even the back-cap. A broken o-ring here will give you untold grief. Open the machine, if needed (if it has an internal gas valve), and CAREFULLY soap-test the internal connections with a q-tip.
Failing the gas, and the line test, I'll ask, are you using a water cooled torch? There's one issue I've encountered there, three times, and always on HFAC. It always resulted in a complete fail, so I'll leave the details off for now.
Steve S
Steve,
When this started happening I was using a water cooled torch but to rule that out I went and bought a brand new air cooled torch to no avail.
Regarding the gas line I went and bought a brand new hose and connected it straight from the regulator to the torch without even going through the solenoid in the machine.I just opened the valve on the cylinder,let it purge for a bit and started welding but the pepper flakes were still there.
Thanks!
DANE wrote:Im not absolutely saying its not me,its just that one day everything was fine and the next it wasnt.I guess you can say that about a lot of things in life.
I don't think it is you. I'm just saying we used to be able to narrow it down easier. The most common issues were with the guy welding and it was usually due to varying experience relative to positions. Nowadays, you look on the internet at issues and there is hundreds, welding the same time tested materials and processes that were nearly perfected decades ago.
Used to be amp settings (which were universally pretty close and people just fine tuned those values to their personal preference and motor skills), high frequency, balance, gas flow and a good ground. I know guys who taught themselves to weld and all the settings from the Hobart and Lincoln books and never looked back.
I think it is either the gas or contaminated material. I have been welding aluminum for decades and used to go years without issues. Sometimes I suspect there is contaminant 'in' the chinese metals we are stuck with a lot these days.
Miller ABP 330, Syncrowave 250, Dynasty 300 DX.
Honorary member of the Fraternity of Faded Tee Shirts.
DANE wrote:Im not absolutely saying its not me,its just that one day everything was fine and the next it wasnt.I guess you can say that about a lot of things in life.
I don't think it is you. I'm just saying we used to be able to narrow it down easier. The most common issues were with the guy welding and it was usually due to varying experience relative to positions. Nowadays, you look on the internet at issues and there is hundreds, welding the same time tested materials and processes that were nearly perfected decades ago.
Used to be amp settings (which were universally pretty close and people just fine tuned those values to their personal preference and motor skills), high frequency, balance, gas flow and a good ground. I know guys who taught themselves to weld and all the settings from the Hobart and Lincoln books and never looked back.
I think it is either the gas or contaminated material. I have been welding aluminum for decades and used to go years without issues. Sometimes I suspect there is contaminant 'in' the chinese metals we are stuck with a lot these days.
Yes,I have a feeling you are right,soon I will know.
Thank you.
Could you post a picture of one of your welds? Also, where are you located? Maybe someone on the forum is close by and could take a look.
Jimmy,
I live in Patagonia Argentina.I think it might be a bit far for you guys.Attached (i think )is a picture of what Im talking about.
Let me know what you think.
Could you post a picture of one of your welds? Also, where are you located? Maybe someone on the forum is close by and could take a look.
Jimmy,
I live in Patagonia Argentina.I think it might be a bit far for you guys.Attached (i think )is a picture of what Im talking about.
Let me know what you think.
DSC_0214.jpg
Thanks.
Dane.
When you let off of the power, is there any smoke coming from the tungsten/cup during the post flow?
Miller ABP 330, Syncrowave 250, Dynasty 300 DX.
Honorary member of the Fraternity of Faded Tee Shirts.
Could you post a picture of one of your welds? Also, where are you located? Maybe someone on the forum is close by and could take a look.
Jimmy,
I live in Patagonia Argentina.I think it might be a bit far for you guys.Attached (i think )is a picture of what Im talking about.
Let me know what you think.
DSC_0214.jpg
Thanks.
Dane.
When you let off of the power, is there any smoke coming from the tungsten/cup during the post flow?
No,no smoke.I do notice its hard to start the arc sometimes.
