[Trebor]

Hello!

I am new to this forum and to tig welding as well. Only this year have I finished a tig welding course at a local school and then passed the EU certification test for tig welding. I allready have expirience with stick and mig/mag welding. Currently Im working as a mig/mag welder at a small company.

My goal is to become a proffesional tig welder, but since I have only 70 hours or so of tig welding under my belt there is still a long way to go before reaching my goal. With that in mind I purchased a cheap tig inverter, so I could practise and develop my skills to a level where I will be confident enough to start looking for a new job.. and it is also a very usefull tool to have for my diy projects.

As for why I didnt buy a professional device... I simply can not afford one. Even the one I bought is very expensive for me, and it would be too expensive if I didnt view it as an investment, but only as a tool for hobby diy work. Because of the economic crisis in EU and particulary in my country the jobs are scarce and low paying, I only make around 4$/h. Dont even have a car, and ride around on a small moped or bicycle. So I really had no choice, it was either a cheap one or nothing at all. So enough of that.

The device is Stahlwerk tig ac/dc 200 Puls S with plasma. I decided for this one because I only found good reviews on the internet (one is also on this web page) and with a 5 year warranty, I was sold. Its suppose to be able to weld material from 0.5 to 10mm (0.02-0.4inch) thickness and it has an amp range from 0 - 200A. Now I really didnt expect it to weld very well if at all anything under 1mm (0.04inch). Even a ten times more expensive top of the line inverter we used at school could hardly be used for 0.5mm sheet, and thats by the instructor. But I did expect it to be able to weld 1mm.

The problem is the amps cant be set low enough. At school I welded 1mm sheet steel with around 30-40 amps without a problem. With mine machine even if I set the amps to 0, thats zerro, it still has too much penetration, I thought it wouldnt even work if I set it to zerro, but it does... On Aluminum the problem is even worse.

With the amps on zerro I cant use the pulse function either to help reduce the heat input. And even with a very fast travel speed, way faster than I am comfortable with, the weld sinks almost flush with the material and its very wide with more of it on the bottom than the top. That cant be right, right?? And since I had no trouble welding 1mm sheet steel, ss or Al at school I dont think my technique is to blame.

Now, Im hoping I just missed something with the settings or something, but I just cant see what that could be, Ive had the device only for a couple of days... Othervise I have no complaints, the arc starts without a problem and its stable also the puls settings and the AC settings work just fine, and I can make pretty welds (you now what kind I mean ) just not on 1mm sheet... which is really bad, since I need the machine mostly for welding thin stuff.

So before I contact the company I thought I would ask you guys for advice... Am I missing something here that can be easily mended... or is my machine just defective out of the box?? The company supposed to have a good customer service... I guess Im gonna find out first hand.. really hoped I wouldnt have to, since postage is quite expensive.

So, any experience, advice or thoughts on the subject are very welcome. Thank you and have a nice day.

[TxBigRed]

How low do the spec sheet for the welder say it will go? If it doesn't go as low as stated, give the manufacturer a call.

[Braehill]

Trebor,
I'm not familiar with your brand, but one thing to look at is if your welder has a " Start Amps" setting. If it does, set it to zero or very low.

We have quite a few members from the EU and maybe someone can help you with your brand and model. Be patient, somebody will answer your question or find the answer for you.

Len

[rick9345]

Review the manual for setup. Some times when in a hurry some thing is missed or left out.
Depending on country of origin the translation languages hard to comprehend.
A call to dist/service rep can be very helpful. Usually someone else has had the problem and they have an answer.

Increase/decrease onknobs/controls can be opposite machine brand to machine brand

[noddybrian]

Do you have a foot pedal connected ?- if so if there any chance it's resistance is incorrect or is not returning to the zero position ? does it do the same without the pedal connected ( if you have one as I think it's an option ) - I don't think the start amps query is applicable here as that's usually on digital panel machines in a sub menu & I believe yours is all analogue / knob control ( sorry Len )

[Braehill]

@Brian,
Actually I learned to look for that problem on a Syncrowave 350 that is analog with only the Volt and Amp meters being digital. It has a start amp setting and if you are using a thumb wheel or foot pedal it starts at whatever amps that's set to.
Of course it's not an inverter, so I don't know how they're configured, that's why I tried to answer in the general sense. I definitely wasn't trying to mislead the OP and send him on a goose chase.I have very limited knowlege of inverters and their make up, so I usually refrain from answering specific questions about them.

Len

[Trebor]

Hello!

First of all, thank you for your quick replies guys.. and second, I am happy to say I managed to sort the problem out.

Yesterday I was searching the web for a solution and was lucky enough to stumble across a video in which the guy is using a similar machine to mine for welding beer cans together, so it really can weld thin stuff, with a skillful hand that is... And when explaining the settings he causaly mentions a weird correlation between Arc force, which is used in MMA mode and TIG amps control.

You have to set the Arc force to zerro or you can not set the Tig Amps to its lowest setting. So I just turned the arc force knob to zero and the problem was resolved... I suspected it has to be a simple dumb thing causing the trouble... But if this is the norm for these kind of machines, then I think it should be clearly stated in the manual, since its annoying as hell, and logically these settings shouldnt interfere with eachother, since there is a switch with which you choose tig, MMA or plasma mode. Thats my logic anyway, have no idea how this electronics work.

I checked the manual like tentimes over and there is no mention of this weird correlation. I will contact the manufacturer regarding this, since Im still not sure if this is the norm or a defect. Perhaps if someone here has a similar inverter, they could tell me if their machine has the same quirk.

The inverter is similar to the everlast which Jodie uses in some of his videos, it has just knobs and switches and a small digital display for the amps, I actually prefer this to the maze of submenues and settings the machine at school has, and we only skimmed the surfice of all the possibilites it offers, told us the instructor, and he also said that like 90% of that stuff is pretty much redundant, esspecially for the begginer... But that thing really is an overkill if you are not going to be making some serious money with it.

Othervise I have no complaints as so far with the macine I bought, with this quirk sorted out it works flawlessly, I can tell no difference between the welds I made at school and now at home, I just hope it keeps on working...

But I am dissapointed with the manual, its really short and it obviously doesnt cover everything that it should.
I also bought the foot pedal with the machine (got no manual for it, but since it only has one knob it wasnt difficult to work it out, it overrides the machine current control, and you can set percentage of the total amperage output of the inverter), but have only tried it out once, it works fine, Im just not used of it yet. The torch at school had a second push knob which controled the amperage, one flick up or down meant plus or minus 1Amp and a longer push meant plus or minus 10Amps ( or whatever you set it to be), very useful, esspecially on thin stuff and particularly for Al. And more practical in the big picture as a foot pedal, but it comes with a high price.

I have only one problem with the pedal control and that is that I got used of propping my torch hand on my knee, and my left leg just isnt as competent for controling the pedal as accuratley as I want it to... I have the same problem with my wire feeding hand, the left one that is,the thing is just clumsy... but practice makes perfect. And weldingtipsandtricks.com really helps a lot, best site I could find.

So again, thanks guys and have a nice day.

PS: In the first post I forgot to state the full title of the thread, which would have been: Tig inverter current control troubleshooting (or something like that)... so if perheps the moderator could change that, so that someone with a similar problem could more easily finde the solution, just a thought.

[GreinTime]

Trebor,

One thing that I found helped with my feed hand (which is either or depending on the weld) is to just sit there and feed a welding wire through both hands while watching TV. Jody has a video called "Feed Drill" maybe, sorry I can't provide a link as I am on my phone :/;

[noddybrian]

@ Braehill - it's all good - I never meant to imply you were wrong or misleading ( sorry if it came over that way - I would not intentionally disrespect you ) - just that this is a common thing on digital panels & I guessed you maybe had'nt seen a picture of this inverter so assumed it to be digital - I was'nt aware that knob set machines did this at all so I've learned something today - only time I seen it happen was with pedal resistance issues.

@ Trebor - glad you have this sorted out - it's amazing the info on You Tube - I agree that many import machines have poor manuals - but I guess it's just the nature of having something made in China - I think it's not uncommon to find certain settings on a multi-process machine that influence more than one function - as you say though it would help if they told you - perhaps when your more used to the machine you could do a short review & maybe post some pictures of your welds - many people reading this forum ( or lurking ) would like to get a Tig but cannot afford or justify an expensive brand name machine so an unbiased review of some of the cheaper end stuff would be helpful - hope your happy with your machine - one caution - be careful of contaminating the Tig torch with dirty compressed air while plasma cutting - & be very careful the function switch is set correctly for the process - as it seems this can wreck the machine in seconds if overlooked .

[Trebor]

Hello!

@GreenTime - Thanks for the advice, been doing that for a while now (seen most of Jodys videos, cant say nothing about his stuff that hasnt been said before, just excellent) Im wearing gloves as well and passing wire between my fingers while watching the TV or wt&t videos...

And one of the most usefull tips I got from Jody was not to share (or at least not plentifully) your metal melting passions with the ladies, unless you wanna dump her the easy way, than its ok, just go on and on about the dimes youre stacking all over the place and shell be gone before you now it

But, although extremely rare, there are exeptions to this rule. Had a girl awhile back, smart and pretty as hell.. and now for a real shocker - a welder woman on top of that, almost droped my beer when she first told me, then felt like I found a gold mine and finnaly managed to f... it all up, not really sure what did it ... it wasnt welder talk for sure, we could have been stacking dimes together till the lights go out, ah well, thats one fail Im always gonna regret.

Sorry about that, got a bit carried away.

@noddybrian - First, thanks for the heads up on how to avoid one mistake that could kill my inverter... Been searching around for just such dumbass mistakes that could damage or even destroy an inverter, but with little success. So have been thinking of starting a thread about it, something like Inverter killers, and how to avoid them, beside the most obvious mistakes like dropping it from a height, taking a shower with it or mending it with a hammer I actually dont know what are the pitfalls to watch for when using an inverter welding device in order to keep it healthy and happy.

Ive read that some are vulnerable if your electrode (tungsten or mma) gets stuck, not sure if thats true since at school they were getting stuck alot, but perhaps that aplies just for cheaper devices. Havent done that with mine jet, but Im sure its gonna happen sooner or later... So perheps some of you more expirienced guys could instruct us noobs on how to keep our machines at least alive if not happy. Or if there allready is a thread like this, then please just point me in the right direction, thanks.

As for posting a review, thats a good idea, and Im planning on doing it. Ill post it together with my first project which is currently only in paper form. Im planning on making a small light duty welding table with a foldable top (on casters) for my garage workshop. It has to be small since my garage is small - only 12 square meters ( 130 sqf ) for all the stuff I (dont really) absolutely need.

The idea is that this would then become a compact welding station on wheels with all the equipement in one small package, kind of like a swiss army knife style welder thingy, just in blue color, since the inverter is allready blue, and on wheels. But the trouble as allways is trying to cramp everything I want in a very confined space and making it work... its not really trouble, its fun

Cant say when the thing is gonna see the light of day, but Im hoping before the year ends.

Also you say: "be careful of contaminating the Tig torch with dirty compressed air while plasma cutting"

Not sure what you mean, and how to avoid that, if you could elaborate a bit more, that would be very apreciated.

When you use plasma cuter on my machine (havent used it jet) you have to remove the tig torch and the argon supply, then plug in the plasma torch and the air hose from the compressor (just bought it yesterday) which goes through an Air & Water Filter/ presure regulator, before going to the machine and ultimately to the plasma torch. I think you also need to change the polarity of the ground cable.

If there are any other precusions I could/should take, please, let me know, thanks.

Wish you all a good day.

[noddybrian]

I've not thought that much about inverter care - as apart from the obvious misuse scenarios you mention they are electronic & work till the weakest component dies - then they are door stops - even the good ones as AK just discovered - some basic precautions would be ensure adequate air flow - don't put anything near the air vents that would restrict it - especially behind as the fans are there - so don't build a cart that places the back of the machine touching the gas bottle - because the fans pull quite a high air volume switch the machine off when grinding or spraying or creating any airborne contamination as this will get sucked in & coat everything - this can affect cooling & metallic grinding dust can cause flash over on insulation - the better machines often have they're boards dipped in something to prevent this - as to sticking tungsten - unless your using 1/8" or bigger which is totally unnecessary on a 200 amp machine flick the torch & snap it off as quickly as possible if you stick it - some machines can sense dead short / zero OCV & switch the output off - some will keep on till the overheat sensor trips off - but just avoid it as far as you can & react as quickly as you can to get over it - there are several other posts giving specifics on the air contamination worth a read - the best solution & is to add a second solonoid valve & connections so both air & gas have separate connections - this is difficult to hide so best left if the machine is under warranty still - but the basic point is the slightest contamination of water vapor / oil from your compressor will travel through the machine when plasma cutting & some will remain after you finish - it also accumulates over time - you may think the air is clean & you have a water trap - but the air is usually too warm for this to be effective & the cheaper ones are not fine enough or efficient - it takes a very small amount in the machine gas valve / pipe / front connection to allow some through when the Tig torch is being used - if you read the huge number of contaminated gas posts you'll realize it does'nt take much to cause havoc - I've had to solvent wash out several with IPA for people that could'nt figure out the problem - an in line desiccant filter helps ( especially the sort that changes color when saturated ) - hope this helps & happy welding with your new toy.

[Trebor]

Hello!

@noddybrian - Thank you for the info... before you mentioned it I wasnt aware of this, so you saved me great deal of frustration in the future... thanks again.

So ideally, the air (or any other gas for that matter) entering the machine should be free of all contaminents, like water wapor, oil, dust, etc. And to achive this one would have to invest in a very good air filtration system, which is probably quite expensive... So I ve been looking around and found some info regarding water reduction in a DIY compressed air supply on the www.mig-welding.co.uk site. It is written with spray painting in mind but I guess its apliccable to plasma cutting as well.

Bassically it talks about installing a "drop leg" to remove excess water prior to the filter/regulator. So I was thinking of making such a drop leg or two in series out of some copper tubing ( to aid in cooling of the air) I might weld some copper plates to the tubing to increase the surfice area thus further improving the cooling, perheps even mount a computer fan for even more cooling effect and there for faster condensation. Then after that stage the air would flow through a chamber filled with silica gel desiccant, the kind that changes color and can be "recharged" in an oven... And then finnaly the air would pass through the water/oil filter that I recived with the machine... Now this would obviously be also benefitial for spary painting as well.

What do you think of such a set up, would it be sufficient in your opinion? Should I add anything else (diy style), like a carbon scrubber?

Then you mention the best solution is having a completely separate argon/ air suplly routes. That makes the most sense... I guess the manufacturer could have done it this way but it would cost more. So I was thinking how I could make this work without modifiying the machine and violating the warranty.

Could I just connect the air supply directly (the above system would still be utilised or at least the filter that came with the machine) to the plasma torch air hose with some sort of an adaptor and then make use of a manual valve... I dont mind loosing air... but I have no idea if this would work. Can the air be flowing through the torch before you actually ignite the arc? Sorry if the terms are not correct I hope you understand What Im trying to say.

If this is possible, then it would be the simplest and most efficient (not for air consumption, obviously) solution, without doing any modifications to the machine.

Sorry if this idea is total rubbish, but I have no experiences with plasma cutters so I know I could be totaly off here.. and the only reason I got a machine with one was that it costed only 50eur extra and I figured it could come in handy sometimes, esspecialy when making cutouts in some thicker sheet metal... but it wont see much action.

And also regarding the dust, do you think it is worth while covering the machine (with a cloth or something) when not in use to protect it from dust? I could make a custum fit cover for it out of some artificial leather, so it would look nice.


So Again, your (or anyone elses for that matter) input is greatly appreciated, thank you for your time,

and have a nice day.

[rick9345]

add a remote dedicated gas/air solenoid for either the Plasma or tig torch

[Otto Nobedder]

Do you have an old beat-up refrigerator in your shop? (A lot of us guys keep the beer out there so the wife isn't grumbling when putting the groceries away...) If so, plumb your copper drip legs inside the fridge. Cooling to 4*C will pull 95% of the moisture out before the dessicant and filter see it. Actually, anything you can do to cool the drip legs even a few degrees will help. The dessicant will last much longer.

Most dessicants can be "recharged" by baking half an hour at about 115*C, and the color-changing kind will tell you when they're dry. (Easier with a removable glass cartridge.)

The oil is a bigger issue, so an oil-less compressor is a better starting point, as your filtration won't have to work as hard, but either way, good oil separation/filtration will save you headaches down the road. Moisture can be dried from the machine without disassembly (with a bottle of dry nitrogen), but oil, as Brian said, will require a solvent cleaning.

I actually like the idea of using a manual valve to supply air to the torch (the plasma cutter actually starts the air flow before initating the arc anyway), but the machine may have a safety that must sense pressure before starting the arc, so you may need to plug the machine's output and leave the argon on to fool this sensor.

Rambling thoughts,

Steve S

[Braehill]

Trebor,
Until your warranty is up you could always run a Tig torch with a gas valve in the handle. I know it's a shame to have to resort to that if your machine already has a built in solenoid, but it would solve the contamination issue.

I'm not sure how the solenoid valve hooks up to the Dinse connection inside the machine, but maybe it can be tee'd and a second solenoid wired in to separate the two. The wiring might prove to be a problem with having a way for one to open without the other opening but a check valve might take care of that.

I've never had an inverter welder apart so I'm just guessing as to what's inside, and thinking out loud.

Len

[Trebor]

Hello!

I drew a sketch of what I had in minde regarding the compressed air preparation. Its a crude sketch but I hope is clear enough for understanding the basic idea.

Instead of the U shaped inverted column and radiator plates I could also just make a coil out of the copper pipe to increase the surfice area and the travel path... Would this be better?

Also I read that active charcoal is quite effective at not only removing odors but also oil from air, so I guess an active charcoal filter in the system couldnt hurt.

scan0001.jpg (28.88 KiB) Viewed 1066 times

- the sketch

@rick345: Hi! Thanks for the input. I understand what you are saying, but if I dont conect the solenoid valve to the plasma torch trigger (and I dont want to make any modifications to the equipment, because it is under warranty) then I still have to triger it seperatley from the torch. It would be a bit faster than a full manual valve but I dont mind loosing some air.

Now what I dont know is if the air supply has to be initiated simultaneously with the arc in the plasma torch, or is it OK if the air is allready flowing prior to igniting the torch? Then I think this would work.

I dont plan on doing a lot of cutting so a little hassle with the manual valve wouldnt bother me. Esspecially since I wouldnt have to disconecct the Argon bottle from the machine, only the tig torch.

[Braehill]

Trebor,
You must be from Australia, your picture is upside down, sure sign.

Len

[Otto Nobedder]

Now what I dont know is if the air supply has to be initiated simultaneously with the arc in the plasma torch, or is it OK if the air is allready flowing prior to igniting the torch? Then I think this would work.

The air can flow constantly through the plasma torch, without issue. As I stated in my last post, you may need to plug the machine's gas outlet and turn on your argon just to supply pressure (no argon flow, just pressure at the solenoid) to fool the machine into thinking everything is hooked up "normal". The machine should have a safety to prevent currrent at the plasma torch if it doesn't sense "air pressure" to protect the torch.

Also, your sketch looks like a great system. Maybe even overkill if you bypass the machine entirely with the air supply, but as Jody has said, "There's no kill like overkill," so why not build it? If you paint your projects using air guns, you'll thank yourself.

Steve S

[Trebor]

Hi! Thanks for the replies guys. Im a bit slow with typing, since English isnt my mother tounge, if that is the correct term?

And I see the sketch is upside down, sorry about that. Ill try to repost it the right way up.

@ Otto - refrigerator is a good idea, unfortinabley My work shop is a small garage only 12 square meters or 130 sqf and even a small refrigerator would take up too much space.

But Im glad to hear that my idea about direct connection of air supply might work, I only hope the machine doesnt have that saftey feature, since its not a high end device I hope it hasnt. Because bleeding out Argon just to fool it in to doing some cutting seems an expensive waist to me, then I rather invest in good diy air filtration, since Its neseccary anyway for quality spray painting.

What do you think of active charchoal scrubber for removing oil? I have experiences with these for removing odor and they work spot on for that, even the diy style.

@Braehill - Thanks for the advice, but buying a new tig torch is for the time being not an option for me.
Im just trying to make the best use of what I got and I wouldnt be comfortable tinkering inside the machine even if it wasnt under warranty since I have very little experience with electronics.

Thanks again guys any input is welcome.

Yeah, Im not from down under, and real slow at typing, Ill post the sketch again, cheers!

[Otto Nobedder]

No... Not bleeding down argon... Not flowing. Just plug it where it comes out of the machine, so it can't flow, and turn the bottle on so the machine senses the pressure. The only argon wasted this way is the tiny bit between the solenoid and the plug, when you remove the plug to hook the TIG torch back up.

Steve S

[Braehill]

Trebor,
The only thing I see wrong with your dryer is the order of the components. You would want to have the Carbon filter in the line ahead of the chiller since Carbon aBsorbs the oil and it will work better at an elevated temperature. You want to have the silica gel at the end of the process since it aDsorbs (caps added for affect) the moisture and it works better at the lower temps. Also if you start out with a large size piping and reduce it every time it goes through a step in the process it will reduce the temp of the air in what's known as the Joules-Thomson effect.

I personally would start out with my compressor going into at least a 2" pipe for the U-shaped condenser and work my way down to 3/8 or even 1/4" tubing by the time I reached the machine.

Len

[Trebor]

Hi again!

@Otto - Just about to ask you, and you allready answerd, thanks... I get it now. Sure hope it works. How and with what would you plug that gas exit hole in the machine. Could I just plug it with a cylindricaly shaped rubber?

Here is the upright sektch with additional one with copper coils, would that be better?

scan0002.jpg (45.92 KiB) Viewed 1041 times

Thank you for your help.

I come from Slovenia, its a small country (population of only 2 million) in Europe in the Balkan region. It was one of the republics of former Yugoslavia. And our neighboring countries are more known like Italy, Austria, Hungary and Croatia.

Cheers!

[Otto Nobedder]

Hi again!

@Otto - Just about to ask you, and you allready answerd, thanks... I get it now. Sure hope it works. How and with what would you plug that gas exit hole in the machine. Could I just plug it with a cylindricaly shaped rubber?

You'd need a threaded fitting to match. Just a rubber plug would not take the pressure. Why not use the air fitting from your plasma torch to make the plug, since you'll be supplying the air directly? It will need to hold about 75 psi (517kPa, or 5.17Bar) as that's the typical setting on an argon regulator/flowmeter.

Steve S

[Trebor]

Hi! Thanks Len... any input is welcome esspecially if it helps to improve the final concept. So the active charcoal comes first and silica gel comes last. The piping should reduce in size towards the exit point. Im not familiar with Joules-Thomson effect, will look it up on wikipedia. But I thought that gasses heat up when compressed an cool when expand, so shouldnt the piping diameter increase towards the exit?

How about the coils, would that better? I kind of like the coils look


Thank you.

@ Steve S - Thanks, Yeah, 5bar is quite a lot, Ill try to find something to screw on there, not to keen on modifiying the torch, but Ill figure something out, I like doing that. And will have to fabricate somekind of adaptor for connecting the plasma air hose to the compressor hose too. But I have to get a good look of it first, right now Im just talking of the top of my head.

[Otto Nobedder]

Trebor,

You're welcome.

You've got a lot of ideas to sort out, between your thoughts and the suggestions here, but it sounds like you have a solid path, if not yet a solid plan. Let us know how all this comes together, what works and what doesn't.

Also, from what I know of Slovenia, I have to wonder if you studied abroad. Your English is as good as if it were your first language.

Steve S