[Cjfabs]

No worries mate. I registered her to possibly help some new enthusiastic welders and to hopefully come across some interesting factoids and brain food. So........ Where and what is this discussion that got you so fired up? I would love to join or at least take a gander at! Cheers.

P.S. The ballon grade Helium is available at most welding supply retailers (i.e. Airgas) you just have to ask for it. I love welding with it and have not noticed any issues with the weld quality. We randomly do 1 1/4" .035 butt joint Class A (xray) weld coupons monthly and had 100% pass. As you know, x-raying an Aluminum welded joint is hairy to say the least. I think mills should put some sort of label on Aluminum like they do with Cigarettes that say, PLEASE WELD ME WITH HELIUM, IT WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE MUCH EASIER!!! Ha.

[Cjfabs]

Since you are in a shop environment and not in the field, ( which I did and, OVER IT) try the regular collet body with a number 5 cup. Two bottles, 1 argon, 1 helium. A flow meter attached to the argon bottle. On the exit side of the flow meter attach a Y valve. Run your line to your machine from 1 of the two exit ports of the Y valve. On the helium bottle that has a flow meter attached to it, run that line to the other exit port of the Y valve. For starters flow 5 cfm of helium and 15 cfm of argon. It works amazing. Try it, if this is not your setup. Let me know what you think. Cheers.

[Otto Nobedder]

Aluminum is less than 5% of what I weld, typically. When I do, however, it is in cryogenic process piping (liquid nitrogen). I use a gas lens with an 8 cup, 3/32 thoriated. Usually a Syncrowave 250DX. It is rare to encounter heavier than 11 ga. or sch. 10. When I do encounter heavier material, it's usually structural and can be MIG welded. The 250DX has enough power to weld most of what I encounter with 100% argon.

On occasion, I TIG heavier sections, though, and have the benefit of unlimited helium (to the point I can take it home for free). I find I don't really need it most of the time, though.

I suppose I should explain. Most of my welding is 304 SS, sch.5 and sch. 10, in cryogenic service (LH2). The balance of what I weld is structural steel/stainless MIG.

Steve

[sros]

Hi Cjfabs!

I haven't been around for a while. Partly because I forgot my password and was unable to log in (finally got it reset ), and mostly because I'm busy studying for 3 upcoming exams in a couple of weeks (I'm getting an MBA).

Like Steve said, I'm finished with the before mentioned project. There will be future projects though, and I'm trying to absorb everything you experts suggest.

Actually, I was looking to buy Helium when I bought my first gas bottle.That was based on Jody's demonstration of the efficiency of Helium vs Argon for aluminum welding.
However, the young guy at our local gas retailer said he only had "balloon-grade Helium" and was uncertain if that could be used for welding (In all fairness he admitted he knew nothing about welding).
Being a novice myself, I became uncertain and ended up buying pure Argon which I knew would work.

I have to add that gas bottles are pretty expensive here (the bottle that is, not the gas itself). A 5 liter bottle costs close to a thousand dollars, a ten liter almost twice as much (if you want to own one). I ended up renting a 20 liter bottle, which costs me about 150 USD per year. Refilling the bottle is about $ 120.

When I run out of Argon, I'll definitely consider refilling it with balloon-grade Helium (think it was approx the same price).
Being an inert gas, I guess Helium works for other metals as well?

Ståle

[Otto Nobedder]

You can weld damn near anything with any of the inert gasses. The characteristics will change significantly with the atomic no. of the gas, and the cost will do the same. The last time I looked at the numbers, argon was $.40/cf, neon was $4.00/cf, and xenon was $40/cf. I haven't kept up with helium, because I rarely need it, and when I do, I get it for free.

I've never tried to weld with neon (and I'm not sure if any process requires it, I haven't encountered one), but I assume it would require a higher amperage considering the difference between helium and argon and the relative differences between their atomic weights.

I guess what I'm saying is: Electricity is cheaper than helium. Only use it when required.

Steve

[sros]

... The characteristics will change significantly with the atomic no. of the gas, and the cost will do the same.

...I've never tried to weld with argon (and I'm not sure if any process requires it, I haven't encountered one), ...
Steve

Hi Steve

Quote 1:
That sounds really interesting!
Could you elaborate on that?


Qutoe 2:
That's also "shocking" to me!
I thought "everybody" used Argon! (goes to show how much I know )

In all the video tutorials I scanned through while trying to pick up the basics of TIG welding (that's how I found this site BTW), most general ones emphasizes that you can not use your MIG gas bottle (normally a mixture of CO2/Ar) as CO2 will actively react/interfere with the molted metal. You have to use pure Argon or a Ar/He mix.

Then I saw Jody's site, and especially the recommendation of using pure Helium on aluminum, and realized I knew nothing about gas mixtures. Later I also read that pure Hydrogen is excellent for TIG welding alloys!
(which has led to the abandonment of "Inert Gas" in the "TIG" definition, as Hydrogen is a highly reactive compound).

Hydrogen is the most abundant substance in the universe, but is almost impossible to find in its pure form, as it has highly reactive properties and bonds to almost all other compounds known, in one form or another.
Most metals have an oxidized state, which I guess is why pure O would make a horrible shield gas, and why other chemical bonds that include oxygen (like CO2) are unsuitable as cover gases.
On the other hand, that doesn't mean that all gases (apart from oxygen) are well suited. Obviously helium has some properties that makes it better suited for aluminum welding than pure argon.
But why?

Ståle

[Otto Nobedder]

Ståle,

PLEASE don't attempt to TIG w/ hydrogen. I think someone has been feeding you bullshit. This can ONLY be done in an isolation box with an inert environment, or the vacuum of space (and, yes, you need a gas of some kind. You need a charge carrier to direct your arc). I cannot imagine a circumstance where H2 would be the gas of choice (though I don't know it all, of course.)

Hydrogen gas is available in bottles, just like helium and argon. I once worked in a plastics processing factory, where we would use a hydrogen/oxygen torch with a 000 welding tip to "flame polish" the cut edges of acrylic and polycarbonate. (No carbon, no discoloration on these clear plastics, unless you overheat and burn them.) By the way, a H2/O flame is nearly invisible when completely neutral, so we'd run them a little hydrogen-rich so we could tell if it was burning.

I'm going to have to edit my post.

I meant to say, "I've never attempted to weld with neon..." I hate when I make a silly slip like that.

Steve

[Otto Nobedder]

I've made the edit, and I hope the post makes more sense now, before I confuse anyone else with my nonsense.

Steve

[kermdawg]

I saw that but I didnt say anything, I thought it was funnier that I didnt :p

Ill have to dig up my tig welding notes on mixed gasses for shielding, cause our instructor did go over each gas, the characteristics, and common mixtures.

Basically, pure helium is rarely used by itself because the arc is very difficult to start. That's why its usually mixed with argon, which has excellent arc starting characteristics. I also remember something about hydrogen being used in some mixture, but I dont think it was more than 5% by volume. C02, nitrogen are also used, albeit very rarely.

Ill see if I cant dig em up and post em, was some really good stuff.

[Otto Nobedder]

I'd like to read it. Now that you've said that, I seem to remember a mixed gas that was 2% (?) hydrogen. The LEL for hydrogen in free air is 4%, so any mix including h2 would have a very low percentage.

Steve

[sros]

PLEASE don't attempt to TIG w/ hydrogen. I think someone has been feeding you bullshit. This can ONLY be done...

Don't worry, I think you misread my post.
I have absolutely no intention of trying hydrogen!

The reason I mentioned it was to emphasize my lack of knowledge with regard to gas-mixtures. The 'IG' in TIG stands for 'Inert Gas' (as you all know), and I was therefore baffled to find that you could use a reactive gas like hydrogen, in a shielding gas mixture.
I think Wikipedia or some other site named hydrogen as the reason they changed the name from TIG to GTAW, as hydrogen (and other reactive gases) now are used in shielding gas mixtures.

Like you say, pure hydrogen is only used in an isolated/confined environment. This site talks about TIG welding in an atmosphere of pure hydrogen, and other sites (this as an example) are talking about hydrogen/argon mixtures where the hydrogen part of the mix varies from 5 % up to 30 % of the mixture.
Like I said, I didn't know you could use reactive gases at all!
I thought the only function of the shielding gas was to prevent oxygen/water vapor/particles from interacting with the melted metal (i.e. shielding). I didn't know that different gases could effect the welding process directly (like Jody demonstrates in his aluminum/helium TIG-video).

Another interesting point, is what kermdawg said about arc starting. I had already decided to fill my bottle with balloon-grade helium when I run out of argon. However, if that leads to major problems getting an arc started, I have to rethink that.
As far as I can remember, they didn't have Ar/He mixtures in stock. I guess they can make custom gas mixtures, but have no idea what that will cost.
If it turns out to be reasonably priced, what would you say an ideal all purpose mixture of He/Ar would be?

Ståle

[kermdawg]

I think Wikipedia or some other site named hydrogen as the reason they changed the name from TIG to GTAW, as hydrogen (and other reactive gases) now are used in shielding gas mixtures.

Im not sure if it was Hydrogen or Nitrogen, but yes you are correct. Our Instructor would yell at us everytime we said TIG. The proper term is GTAW. got old quick lol.

As far as I can remember, they didn't have Ar/He mixtures in stock. I guess they can make custom gas mixtures, but have no idea what that will cost.
If it turns out to be reasonably priced, what would you say an ideal all purpose mixture of He/Ar would be?

Thats crap. Where are you going? A good all purpose mix is 75ar/25he. That gives you good arc start characteristics, and the hotter arc you want. You can go all the way to like 20ar/80he I think before the arc gets real hard to start.

Im also curious-I know balloon grade helium and UHP helium are differant in terms of quality of gas, but how badly would that affect welding? I read alot of guys on here using balloon grade helium and seem to be fine with it, but everytime I have read people using helium for welding it -had- to be UHP(ultra high purity).

[sros]

Thats crap. Where are you going? A good all purpose mix is 75ar/25he. That gives you good arc start characteristics, and the hotter arc you want. You can go all the way to like 20ar/80he I think before the arc gets real hard to start.

I live in a small town in the northern part of Norway (here), and welding supplies are limited. Most things have to be ordered from out of town. The local gas supplier is a branch of AGA gas, but kind of small and mostly tailored to meet the specific demands of certain industries in town.
There are a few manufacturing shops in town, but they work primarily for the fishing industry, and/or supply steel structures for the construction companies in the area. They have very specific demands for gas mixtures, and those are the types of mixtures they have in stock (the more exotic mixtures are pre-bottled and shipped in).
They do fill gas bottles themselves of course, but it looks like some sort of prearranged set up of different mixtures in demand.
I remember I specifically asked the young clerk wether they had any Ar/He mix when I was there the first time, and he said no. I then asked if he had pure helium, and he answered like I mentioned before, that they only had "balloon grade" helium and that he was uncertain wether that was suitable for welding.

I'm sure it's possible for them to mix argon/helium on site, but I'm also sure they gonna charge extra for that. In the US that probably wouldn't be much, but in Norway everything is expensive and they're probably gonna charge me an arm and a leg for it.
In the US it's cheaper to hire five guys to do a job manually than to invest in an expensive machine to do the same job. In Norway it's the other way around. Labour costs are very high here, and labour rights are very solid. Any entrepreneur would rather buy a costly sophisticated machine than hire extra labour if possible. That again means that any type of work that require "human interference" (like setting up a custom gas mixture instead of just pulling a lever on a preset machine), will cost you.
As an example, the last time I had my car in for a routine service (changing oil etc), it cost me $ 1000,-. Only 130 $ were for parts (oil, filters etc) the rest was labour.
That's also why it comes in handy to be a "handy man". You save a lot of money.

Ståle

[kermdawg]

In the US it's cheaper to hire five guys to do a job manually than to invest in an expensive machine to do the same job. In Norway it's the other way around. Labour costs are very high here, and labour rights are very solid. Any entrepreneur would rather buy a costly sophisticated machine than hire extra labour if possible.

Umm, are we talkin about the same US? :p In the US, they will ship the CGC out to mexico/india/taiwan to have it filled, then ship it back to the US. :):) God bless America.

And not to be a jerk, but who do you think invented that sophisticated machine that takes jobs away from shmoes like you and me? Some American more than likely. Sad to say.

Anyway, instead of talkin to the guy loadin the cylinder, try talkin to a manager or somethin like that. If you use enough gas, or if the guy likes you enough, he'll probably give you a good deal on a premixed cylinder, maybe keep a couple around for you premixed. Im sure your not the -only- person in town that needs an AR/HE mix.

[sros]

Umm, are we talkin about the same US? :p In the US, they will ship the CGC out to mexico/india/taiwan to have it filled, then ship it back to the US. :):) God bless America.

That is true for most western world countries. In the years leading up to WW2 and the years after, little Norway had the worlds second largest merchant fleet. It was one of Norways biggest employers. Today it's still huge (Frontline as one example), but with only a handful (literally) of Norwegians being employed. Most employees are from the Philippines and other low cost countries. Almost all product refining industries (that by nature are labour intensive), has been moved abroad to low cost third world countries, or have been closed down for good.
So when you're talking about labour intensive processes, the tendency is the same in all western world countries.
Because the cost of living is much higher in the US than let's say Taiwan or China, labour is much cheaper in the latter.

In Norway that "problem" is aggravated by our political egalitarian system (socialism). A surgeon makes a lot more money than an unskilled worker in the US and most other countries. That is of course also true in Norway, but to a much less extent.
The US surgeon probably makes 10-15 times more money than let's say someone who cleans his/her office. In Norway he/she only makes 3-4 times more, meaning the surgeon earns substantially less money than his/her American counterpart, and the cleaner makes a lot more than his American counterpart.

Lifting the wages of unskilled and low paid workers is of course a good thing, and leads to more social stability and a less divided society. However, it also means there are more money circulating (everybody can afford more) and the prices rise until there's a balance between supply and demand. Even though the Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) are very similar both with regard to political systems and living standards, prices are much higher in Norway than in the two other countries. Wages (for typical blue collar workers) are much higher in Norway than in Sweden and Denmark. That has led to a massive "invasion" of workers that commute from Sweden on a daily or weekly basis. After EU changed their rules a few decades ago allowing labour to move freely between countries within the European market, we've seen a massive surge of workers from earlier east block countries like Poland, Estonia, Lithauen etc, coming to do contract work in Norway.
Before it got regulated, Norwegian contractors could hire guest workers on half the Norwegian tariff (which still would be 5 times more than they got paid back home) which of course resulted in strong reactions from the Norwegian labour unions with accusations of social dumping. A change of laws made it illegal to hire foreign workers on contracts that paid less than the established Norwegian minimum tariff.

And not to be a jerk, but who do you think invented that sophisticated machine that takes jobs away from shmoes like you and me? Some American more than likely. Sad to say.

You misunderstand. It's not a question of which country is more sophisticated than the other. The US is the worlds largest economy, and has as a result of its massive resources (both human and financial) been able to achieve things no other nations would be able to do. (Like putting a man to the moon, inventing the atomic bomb, nuclear power, modern computer technology, and so on). All these things require massive financial resources, and a collective brain power that no other nation can match.

However, like mentioned earlier, high skilled labour earns lots of money, whilst unskilled labour is at the bottom of the totem pole (with regard to wages at least). On Discovery channel they have a series called "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe. What strikes me (when watching the show through Norwegian eyes), is that a lot of the work teams that are portrayed, do things in a cumbersome labour intensive way. Even Mike reacts sometimes and says "wouldn't it be easier to use a (name given)-machine to do this", whereupon the guy he's interviewing answers "that would be too expensive, we couldn't defend the investment. This is cheaper and makes us competitive".
In Norway, any contractor would say the opposite. "We had to invest in the (american ) machine, otherwise we would have to hire three more guys, and that would be to expensive."

Reason being that:
a) Wages are much higher here
b) Taxes are higher, (typically 38-43 % for a blue collar worker) which means the pay has to be even higher to compensate for that
c) The employer has to pay an annual state tax amounting to 15 % of the employees gross wages for hiring someone
d) It's (with a few exceptions) illegal to hire people on short term contracts. You have to hire them permanently or face major fines
e) Labour rights are very strong. If you hire someone and they turn out to be crap (not entirely useless, but way below the average), you can't fire them unless you can prove beyond any doubt that they have been grossly negligent or are actively sabotaging the work, or stealing from the employer.

In sum:
Prices in Norway are very high compared to the rest of the world. Anything that requires manual labour gets expensive real quick. Most Norwegians who live within reasonable distance from the Swedish border, drives to Sweden if they need their car repaired or serviced, as the prices are less than half of Norway. Similarly it is often cheaper to order a Swedish contractor to come to Norway and build your house (even if you have to house the workers), than to have it built buy a Norwegian contractor.

You just have to trust me on the gas bottle thing. If I want a custom mix, I'll probably have to pay a lot for it.
From what I've said, it might seem that Norway must be a horrible place to live, but it has its perks too. I'm not gonna go in to that, I've written far too much already. What I can say instead is that it's a real thrill for someone like me to visit the US. Not only because everything is much cheaper, but since you have a population of around 300 million versus our 4,8 million, you constitute a huge market. That means a big variety of products that are not available here, and also a huge variety of everything from cultural offers to societal variations found nowhere else in the world.


EDIT:

Anyway, instead of talkin to the guy loadin the cylinder, try talkin to a manager or somethin like that. If you use enough gas, or if the guy likes you enough, he'll probably give you a good deal on a premixed cylinder, maybe keep a couple around for you premixed.

That's probably a good idea.

Im sure your not the -only- person in town that needs an AR/HE mix.

LOL, It appears I am!

Through all the videos I've watched and literature I've read on the subject, I've come to realize that different argon mixtures are the most commonly used shielding gas mixtures. Even so, the guy didn't have that in stock!
They did have a few stock argon mixtures, but I can't remember what they were, only that they weren't Ar/He. I guess most professional shops mix gases themselves on the spot, like Cjfabs described earlier in this thread:

Two bottles, 1 argon, 1 helium. A flow meter attached to the argon bottle. On the exit side of the flow meter attach a Y valve. Run your line to your machine from 1 of the two exit ports of the Y valve. On the helium bottle that has a flow meter attached to it, run that line to the other exit port of the Y valve. For starters flow 5 cfm of helium and 15 cfm of argon. It works amazing. Try it, if this is not your setup. Let me know what you think. Cheers.

As this is just a hobby to me, I can't afford to rent two bottles of gas (my wife would kill me), so I'll have to have them fill my one bottle with the finished mix.
And if I haven't misunderstood completely, you all say that an Ar/He mixture (maybe 75/25 like you suggest) could be used for most metals, not only aluminum.

[kermdawg]

As far as I know, you can use ar/he mix on almost anything. It comes down to whether you would want to or not. The reason you want to use ar/he is for the hotter arc. If your machine can already weld the metal without the mixture, theres really no reason to use the mix. Likewise, if you had a machine that could run 300-400 amps, you wouldnt need the mixture either, although it still might be cheaper just to pay for the mix than the electricity cost :p

[Otto Nobedder]

Ståle,

You mentioned getting He when your Ar is empty; Why wait? When you've used a quarter to half your Ar, ask them to top it up with He. They may be more willing to do this than attempt to make a custom formula. They may lack the equipment to precisely meter a mix, possibly buying Ar/CO2 premixed or sub-contracting filling of this common mix.

You won't have a "known formula", just an estimate, but you'll get a full bottle of a mix you can experiment with. If you like the results, then pursue getting a custom mix from them. If not, just go back to Ar when you've emptied your mixed gas.

Just a thought.

Steve

[kermdawg]

That sounds like a great idea, at least in theory

[Otto Nobedder]

Someone once gave me a great explanation of the difference between theory and practice.

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they rarely are."

Probably the only advice I've gotten that has more truth in it came from my father:

"There are only two ways to handle a woman... And nobody knows either one of them."

Steve

[kermdawg]

My favorite one, and I wish I wouldve learned it earlier in life-

The 6 P's-Prior Planning will Prevent Piss Poor Performance.

[jakeru]

FYI - here is what Argon vs Helium (welding grade, without any oxygen added) costs in my local market. (Greater Seattle area, WA, USA.) I wrote down these prices a while ago, and just came across them. For an 80CF bottle exchange:
$43 - 100% Argon
$67 - 25% Helium, 75% Argon
$75 - 75% Helium, 25% Argon
$75 - 100% Helium

[sros]

You mentioned getting He when your Ar is empty; Why wait? When you've used a quarter to half your Ar, ask them to top it up with He. They may be more willing to do this than attempt to make a custom formula. They may lack the equipment to precisely meter a mix, possibly buying Ar/CO2 premixed or sub-contracting filling of this common mix.

That's a great idea!
Hadn't thought about that at all. I'll check with them to see if that's possible (Can't see why it shouldn't be)

Someone once gave me a great explanation of the difference between theory and practice.

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they rarely are."

I rented a mini excavator a while back to dig up and brick lay part of my lawn (add more parking space). Anyway, while I was in the office I noticed the company motto framed on the wall:
(hopefully the translation holds water)

"Theory is when you know everything, but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works, but nobody knows why.
In this company we combine theory and practice.
Nothing works, and nobody knows why."

Ståle

[Otto Nobedder]

Ståle,

That is pure genius, and, if you don't mind, I'll keep and use that!

"Theory is when you know everything, but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works, but nobody knows why.
In this company we combine theory and practice.
Nothing works, and nobody knows why."


Steve

[kermdawg]

Im not sure if I would be putting that where my customers could see it :p

[Otto Nobedder]

Ståle,

I've enjoyed communicating with you for a while, now, and it has dawned on me that I can't even pronounce your name properly.

Can you give me an English approximation? (I'm tired of telling my wife I've been talking to my friend in Norway .)

Steve