[Oscar]

Since most of my filler rod is not new, I always Acetone wipe (to get rid of surface dirt/oils), scotchbrite wipe (to clean any oxidation that may have formed), then acetone wipe again (to clean any scotchbrite remnants and loose oxidation left from the scotchbrite'ing). I keep separate scotchbrite pads for mild steel, stainless, aluminum, nickel alloys, and titanium alloys. For silicon-bronze I usually grab the mild steel scotchbrite. Every now and then I usually blow 100psi compressed air through themif I see them getting too crummy. Except for the one I use for titanium. Can't risk any oil that may have made it's way past the filter getting onto an otherwise clean Ti filler rod. Just cut out a new piece.

[maker of things]

That's a good tip. Just picked up some fresh green flavored scotch brite pads, I'll have to chunk a few pieces off to keep separate for filler cleaning. I just picked up a couple 36" Rod Guard tubes to keep my filler in to help prevent oxidization and dirt too.

[Oscar]

That's a good tip. Just picked up some fresh green flavored scotch brite pads, I'll have to chunk a few pieces off to keep separate for filler cleaning. I just picked up a couple 36" Rod Guard tubes to keep my filler in to help prevent oxidization and dirt too.

I prefer the maroon or gray Scotchbrite pades, I usually order some from Roark Supply if I need other abrasives, or sometimes just Ebay.

Rod Guard tubes are expensive. I can make three 36" tubes for the cost of one Rod Guard tube.

[entity-unknown]

Thanks for the info Oscar! Didn't know you had such a variety of metals you've worked with TIG.
Considering the mild concern of Chlorine with PVC, ABS piping is the cheapest and best choice for making your own cases right?
ABS 2" pipe, unions, and end caps looked like it would cost under $10 for bout 2 tubes since you're usually stuck buying I think 10' that you'd cut unless you buy pre-cut tubes but if you want more than one I think it was still cheaper just to get a 10' pipe and cut yourself or have the store do it for you.

[Oscar]

I use the "gray PVC" (conduit) from the electrical aisle. Cheaper than the white PVC in the plumbing aisle. Which "chlorine concern" do you speak of?

[entity-unknown]

Poly Vinyl Chloride has the Chloride part which is a chlorine derivative. For the casual welder and most shops, no one would probably ever bat an eye but when doing aviation or nuclear type work, it would be considered unacceptable. Jody mentions this in one of his videos where he's making the white PVC cases:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhCc_ALFhXM

I don't believe PVC is ever considered for holding any chemicals either because it would break down vs. ABS which is very chemically resistant (except acetone) and holds oils well since it is a derivative of oil as is. PVC can not be extruded without releasing chlorine gases either which requires proper air filtration. ABS is a more natural substance and does not release toxic gases when being extruded.
I've got a lot of 3d printing time and research, and ABS is the primary plastic I work with since my stuff is more for mechanical/functional purposes rather than trinkets and statues

[Oscar]

Ah ok, gotcha. Makes sense. I wonder if the gray conduit tubing is also pvc in a different color. I'll have to look it up to see where I end up storing my 45lbs of titanium filler rod.

[entity-unknown]

Hey Oscar! Got any titanium work examples? I haven't even considered stepping into that realm since it's not really where I'm going but after you mentioning it several times I'm kind of curious now.... Checked my Miller TIG Calc for Titanium... Holy Amperage!

The grey stuff is still PVC and I'm pretty sure that titanium is probable the most expensive type of rod (just guessing haven't looked) so might not hurt to swap over to ABS for a few dollars more.

I've gotta go build my cases too since I have about 45lbs of various rod to store now too and after seein the light but noticeable improvement of the scotch brite on my filler rod vs. the quality of weld. Considering how much stuff gets jostled around in shipping, and that card board dust crap that's all over the rods since your 10lbs usually comes in a cardboard box, yeah I think I need some rod storage

[exnailpounder]

I know titanium rod is expensive but de-oxygenated copper rods are a jaw dropper too but you gotta have them for welding copper.

[Oscar]

Hey Oscar! Got any titanium work examples? I haven't even considered stepping into that realm since it's not really where I'm going but after you mentioning it several times I'm kind of curious now.... Checked my Miller TIG Calc for Titanium... Holy Amperage!

The grey stuff is still PVC and I'm pretty sure that titanium is probable the most expensive type of rod (just guessing haven't looked) so might not hurt to swap over to ABS for a few dollars more.

I've gotta go build my cases too since I have about 45lbs of various rod to store now too and after seein the light but noticeable improvement of the scotch brite on my filler rod vs. the quality of weld. Considering how much stuff gets jostled around in shipping, and that card board dust crap that's all over the rods since your 10lbs usually comes in a cardboard box, yeah I think I need some rod storage

I've only done a few thin-wall practice welds, I had posted the pics here some time ago. Welds really nice just so damn sensitive to oxidation. I hope to one day fab up some race car parts out of Ti. Ti can be expensive if you opt for USA-produced/drawn wire, cheapest of which I've found is about $90/lb. I opt for overseas material, since a lot of Ti tubing sold in the US still comes from overseas material, and I save quite a bit of money. My order of Hastelloy-W has been the most expensive @ ~$56/lb, and that not coming from Haynes Intl., but a different wire producer. The Haynes stuff is likely 3x what I paid because they invented the alloy. Deals can be found if you search adamantly, however. I just scored 33lbs of Hastelloy-X for less than $10/lb. That stuff is likely even more expensive than W-alloy. In fact, it was one of the wires I was trying to feed with your claw. Haynes uses a proprietary RTW superfinish on that wire that's so slick when you touch it, it makes you think you have oil on your fingers, even if their completely dry.

Looks like I need something else to hold my Ti filler, and I know just the thing, and it's not ABS.

[entity-unknown]

Nailer! I've been afraid to look at the price of copper too. $6-7 for a coupler is brutal enough.

Oscar! So long as it's not chlorinated, your garage floor, a cardboard box, I'm sure you'll be fine. I don't think I'd ever trust myself to build a race car, especially if I'm not the driver and runnin on a solo track so more power to you

[Otto Nobedder]

... ABS is a more natural substance ...

ABS is an "alloy" of plastics. Acrylonitrile, Butadiene, and Styrene. About as natural as the T3 terminator in the movie.

Steve S

[entity-unknown]

I'd have to disagree. ABS comes from more natural substances and has a much shorter list of ingredients than PVC. As for Terminator 3, there was nothing natural about it so that was an inaccurate comparison. T2 and T1 had more realistic, and organic material involved particularly the T800 series.
PVC uses more chemical based processing and has a much longer list of ingredients needed for it to work. The extra ingredients are more MFG specific and not usually reference able. ABS has a shorter list, and more of a distilling method for it's creation. There are some extra additives to make ABS fit different jobs but still the list is much shorter.

Some science:
ABS is derived from acrylonitrile, butadiene, and styrene. Acrylonitrile is a synthetic monomer produced from propylene and ammonia; butadiene is a petroleum hydrocarbon obtained from the C4 fraction of steam cracking; styrene monomer is made by dehydrogenation of ethyl benzene — a hydrocarbon obtained in the reaction of ethylene and benzene.

Propene, also known as propylene or methyl ethylene, is an unsaturated organic compound having the chemical formula C3H6. It has one double bond, and is the second simplest member of the alkene class of hydrocarbons.

Ethene (ethylene) is the most important organic chemical, by tonnage, that is manufactured. It is the building block for a vast range of chemicals from plastics to antifreeze solutions and solvents. Figure 1 On the site at Grangemouth in Scotland, ethene is produced by steam cracking of naphtha

Ammonia or azane is a compound of nitrogen and hydrogen with the formula NH3. It is a colourless gas with a characteristic pungent smell. Ammonia contributes significantly to the nutritional needs of terrestrial organisms by serving as a precursor to food and fertilizers. Ammonia, either directly or indirectly, is also a building block for the synthesis of many pharmaceuticals and is used in many commercial cleaning products.

Ethylbenzene is an organic compound with the formula C6H5CH2CH3. It is a highly flammable, colorless liquid with an odor similar to that of gasoline.

Benzene is an important organic chemical compound with the chemical formula C6H6. The benzene molecule is composed of 6 carbon atoms joined in a ring with 1 hydrogen atom attached to each. Because it contains only carbon and hydrogen atoms, benzene is classed as a hydrocarbon.

Hazard for humans[edit]
ABS is stable to decomposition under normal use and polymer processing conditions with exposure to carcinogens well below workplace exposure limits.[19] However, at higher temperatures (400 °C) ABS can decompose into its constituents: butadiene (carcinogenic to humans), acrylonitrile (possibly carcinogenic to humans), and styrene.[19]

Concerns have been raised regarding airborne ultrafine particle (UFP) concentrations generated while printing with ABS, as UFPs have been linked with adverse health effects.[20]

####################################################

Polyvinyl chloride, more correctly but unusually poly(vinyl chloride), commonly abbreviated PVC, is the third-most widely produced synthetic plastic polymer, after polyethylene and polypropylene.[4]

Vinyl chloride is an organochloride with the formula H2C=CHCl that is also called vinyl chloride monomer (VCM) or chloroethene. This colorless compound is an important industrial chemical chiefly used to produce the polymer polyvinyl chloride (PVC).

About 85% of vinyl chloride is produced by an integrated set of reactions starting with chlorine, ethylene, and air. Two processes are used to generate 1,2-dichloroethane (EDC), commonly known by its old name of ethylene dichloride (EDC).

Vinyl chloride plants use recycled HCl to produce more EDC via oxychlorination, which entails the reaction of ethylene, oxygen, and hydrogen chloride over a copper(II) chloride catalyst to produce EDC:

A monomer (/ˈmɒnəmər/ mon-ə-mər[1]) (mono-, "one" + -mer, "part") is a molecule that may bind chemically or supramolecularly to other molecules to form a (supramolecular) polymer.[

Vinyl chloride is an organochloride with the formula H2C=CHCl that is also called vinyl chloride monomer (VCM) or chloroethene. This colorless compound is an important industrial chemical chiefly used to produce the polymer polyvinyl chloride (PVC).

Most vinyl products contain plasticizers which dramatically improve their performance characteristic. The most common plasticizers are derivatives of phthalic acid.

Phthalic acid is produced by the catalytic oxidation of naphthalene or ortho-xylene directly to phthalic anhydride and a subsequent hydrolysis of the anhydride

In the U.S., OSHA lists vinyl chloride as a Class IA Flammable Liquid, with an National Fire Protection Association Flammability Rating of 4. Because of its low boiling point, liquid VCM will undergo flash evaporation (i.e., autorefrigerate) upon its release to atmospheric pressure. The portion vaporized will form a dense cloud (more than twice as heavy as the surrounding air). The risk of subsequent explosion or fire is significant. According to OSHA, the flash point of vinyl chloride is −78 °C (−108.4 °F).[14] Its flammable limits in air are: lower 3.6 volume% and upper 33.0 volume%. The explosive limits are: lower 4.0%, upper 22.05 by volume in air. Fire may release toxic hydrogen chloride (HCl) and carbon monoxide (CO).[15] VCM can polymerise rapidly due to heating and under the influence of air, light and contact with a catalyst, strong oxidisers and metals such as copper and aluminium, with fire or explosion hazard. As a gas mixed with air, VCM is a fire and explosion hazard. On standing VCM can form peroxides, which may then explode. VCM will react with iron and steel in the presence of moisture.[5][16] Vinyl chloride is a gas at normal atmospheric temperature and pressure.

Health effects[edit]
Vinyl chloride is flammable, emitting corrosive hydrogen chloride and toxic phosgene in the process.

The hepatotoxicity of vinyl chloride has long been established since the 1930s when the PVC industry was just in its infant stages. In the very first study about the dangers of vinyl chloride, published by Patty in 1930, it was disclosed that exposure of test animals to just a single short-term high dose of vinyl chloride caused liver damage.[17] In 1949, a Russian publication discussed the finding that vinyl chloride caused liver injury among workers.[18] In 1954, B.F. Goodrich Chemical stated that vinyl chloride caused liver injury upon short-term exposures. Almost nothing was known about its long-term effects. They also recommended long-term animal toxicology studies. The study noted that if a chemical did justify the cost of testing, and its ill-effects on workers and the public were known, the chemical should not be made.[19] In 1963, research paid for in part by Allied Chemical found liver damage in test animals from exposures below 500 parts per million (ppm).[20] Also in 1963, a Romanian researcher published findings of liver disease in vinyl chloride workers.[21] In 1968, Mutchler and Kramer, two Dow researchers, reported their finding that exposures as low as 300 ppm caused liver damage in vinyl chloride workers thus confirming earlier animal data in humans.[22] In a 1969 presentation given in Japan, P. L. Viola, a European researcher working for the European vinyl chloride industry, indicated, "every monomer used in V.C. manufacture is hazardous....various changes were found in bone and liver. Particularly, much more attention should be drawn to liver changes. The findings in rats at the concentration of 4 to 10 ppm are shown in pictures." In light of the finding of liver damage in rats from just 4–10 ppm of vinyl chloride exposure, Viola added that he "should like some precautions to be taken in the manufacturing plants polymerizing vinyl chloride, such as a reduction of the threshold limit value of monomer …" [23] In 1970, Viola, reported that test animals exposed to 30,000 ppm of vinyl chloride developed cancerous tumors. Viola began his research looking for the cause of liver and bone injuries found in vinyl chloride workers. Viola's findings in 1970 were a "red flag" to B.F. Goodrich and the industry.[24] In 1972, Maltoni, another Italian researcher for the European vinyl chloride industry, found liver tumors (including angiosarcoma) from vinyl chloride exposures as low as 250 ppm for four hours a day.[25]

In the late 1960s, the cancers that all of these studies warned of finally manifested themselves in workers. John Creech from B.F. Goodrich discovered angiosarcoma (a very rare cancer) in the liver of a worker at the B.F. Goodrich plant in Louisville, Kentucky. Then, finally, on January 23, 1974, B.F. Goodrich informed the government and issued a press release stating that it was "investigating whether the cancer deaths of three employees in the polyvinyl chloride operations at its Louisville, Ky. plant were related to occupational causes."

In 1997 the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) concluded that the development and acceptance by the PVC industry of a closed loop polymerization process in the late 1970s "almost completely eliminated worker exposures" and that "new cases of hepatic angiosarcoma in vinyl chloride polymerization workers have been virtually eliminated."[26]

According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), "vinyl chloride emissions from polyvinyl chloride (PVC), ethylene dichloride (EDC), and vinyl chloride monomer (VCM) plants cause or contribute to air pollution that may reasonably be anticipated to result in an increase in mortality or an increase in serious irreversible, or incapacitating reversible illness. Vinyl chloride is a known human carcinogen that causes a rare cancer of the liver."[27] EPA's 2001 updated Toxicological Profile and Summary Health Assessment for VCM in its Integrated Risk Information System (IRIS) database lowers EPA's previous risk factor estimate by a factor of 20 and concludes that "because of the consistent evidence for liver cancer in all the studies...and the weaker association for other sites, it is concluded that the liver is the most sensitive site, and protection against liver cancer will protect against possible cancer induction in other tissues."[28]

A 1998 front-page series in the Houston Chronicle claimed the vinyl industry has manipulated vinyl chloride studies to avoid liability for worker exposure and to hide extensive and severe chemical spills into local communities.[29] Retesting of community residents in 2001 by the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) found dioxin levels similar to those in a comparison community in Louisiana and to the U.S. population.[30] Cancer rates in the community were similar to Louisiana and US averages.[31]

Vinyl chloride finds its major application in the production of PVC. It is volatile, so the primary exposure is via inhalation as against food or water with occupational hazards being highest. Prior to 1974, workers were commonly exposed to 1,000 ppm vinyl chloride, causing "vinyl chloride illness" such as acrosteolysis and Raynaud's Phenomenon. The symptoms of vinyl chloride exposure are classified by ppm levels in ambient air with 4,000 ppm having a threshold effect.[32] The intensity of symptoms varies from acute (1,000-8,000 ppm), including dizziness, nausea, visual disturbances, headache, and ataxia, to chronic (above 12,000 ppm), including narcotic effect, cardiac arrhythmias, and fatal respiratory failure.[33] RADS (Reactive Airway Dysfunction Syndrome) may be caused by acute exposure to vinyl chloride.[34]

Vinyl chloride can have acute dermal and ocular effects. Dermal exposure effects are thickening of skin, edema, decreased elasticity, local frostbites, blistering, and irritation.[33] The complete loss of skin elasticity expresses itself in Raynaud’s Phenomenon.[35]

Chronic exposure leads to common forms of respiratory failure (emphysema, pulmonary fibrosis) and focused hepatotoxicity (hepatomegaly, hepatic fibrosis). Continuous exposure can cause CNS depression including euphoria and disorientation.

Vinyl chloride is a mutagen having clastogenic effects which affect lymphocyte chromosomal structure.[33][35]

Vinyl chloride is a Group 1 human carcinogen posing elevated risks of rare angiosarcoma, brain and lung tumors, and malignant haematopoeitic lymphatic tumors.[36]

Decreased male libido, spontaneous abortion, and birth defects are known major reproductive defects associated with vinyl chloride.

The US OSHA limits vinyl chloride exposure of workers to no more than 1 ppm for eight hours or 5 ppm for 15 minutes. The US EPA and FDA limit vinyl chloride in drinking water to 0.002 ppm. Food (ingestion) is a trivial source of exposure.

[exnailpounder]

Steve,,,you just got your ass kicked

[entity-unknown]

Ha, no fightin, just sharin. He did bring the Terminator into it tho so I had to go the extra mile for that one

[LtBadd]

I'd have to disagree. ABS comes from more natural substances and has a much shorter list of ingredients than PVC. As for Terminator 3, there was nothing natural about it so that was an inaccurate comparison. T2 and T1 had more realistic, and organic material involved particularly the T800 seriesT800 ............................................................................................................................................................................The US OSHA limits vinyl chloride exposure of workers to no more than 1 ppm for eight hours or 5 ppm for 15 minutes. The US EPA and FDA limit vinyl chloride in drinking water to 0.002 ppm. Food (ingestion) is a trivial source of exposure.

Can someone read all that and condense it down to 50 words or less...

[Coldman]

ABS is good shit.
PVC is bad shit.
Steve's butt is hurtin.

[entity-unknown]

ABS is a plastic that originates from natural stuff.
PVC is more chemically originated and is cholorinated.

ABS is generally safer for you and the materials it comes in with contact with since it is not made with oxidizers.

PVC is made with cholorinated and and oxidized agents and is generally unsafe when heated especially the gases.

If you're going to go the hardware store route to build your own rod holders, you should go with ABS over PVC but there are other plastics available such as PET(E) which is a food grade plastic and likely safer than ABS or PVC for storing rods.

[exnailpounder]

HEY...this is a WELDING Forum...dammit!

[entity-unknown]

And that was plastics education for when you build your DIY rod cases and hopefully don't save yourself $5-10 goin with PVC over the ABS

[maker of things]

Not to be a buzz kill, but the rod guard tubes are $13 ea. They have a gasket, thread closed, are sized to drop in a 2" hole for storage and are availible in red and blue. Made of Polyethylene, they are waterproof and air tight Also they don't look like you made some stuff out of old plumbing. For me didn't really seem worth the time to make 3 filler tubes. YMMV.

Also doubt too many people have nuclear plants in their garage, so the chloride thing might be slight overkill for most of us.

[entity-unknown]

Actually we just agreed since I said PET(E) would be a better choice
I only suggest ABS over PVC if you're going the DIY route from your local hardware store which probably doesn't carry those. Now at $13, that sounds pretty nice! With ABS for me to store 50 lbs of 5 different rod types, that'll still be fairly expensive compared to the ABS DIY route but almost worth it...

I'd only be worried about the chloride parts if you have important professional jobs to do, particularly welds that involve peoples lives. I'd also never consider it myself because with how much rod I have, they some might be stored for a few years. The oxidation over time would probably show itself. Chlorine is not friendly to metals at all and why it's never recommended to use chlorine in small pumps for water fixtures and ponds.

Just realized we all totally jacked this thread too

[Oscar]

I hoard TIG filler rod, so $13 a tube ends up costing like $1000 for all my rod, lol.

[maker of things]

I hoard TIG filler rod, so $13 a tube ends up costing like $1000 for all my rod, lol.

Dang! That's a lot of rod! (insert your own inappropriate jokes here).
I have been buying filler 1# at a time and not gone through most of it. I have 3 sizes of 4043 in one tube, stainless alloys in another and mild/silicon bronze/nickle rod in the other.

[exnailpounder]

I hoard TIG filler rod, so $13 a tube ends up costing like $1000 for all my rod, lol.

Dang! That's a lot of rod! (insert your own inappropriate jokes here).
I have been buying filler 1# at a time and not gone through most of it. I have 3 sizes of 4043 in one tube, stainless alloys in another and mild/silicon bronze/nickle rod in the other.

Over time the atoms in your filler rods will blend and become an unusable alloy. That is why we have to keep them separate. If you don't believe me ask Steve aka Ottonobedder.