Welding Tips and Tricks

[quote/]
It is generally accepted that a 50 amp welder outlet can be supplied by whatever you choose. [/quote]

This should not be accepted. You are right to feel bad about an outlet rated more than the cable ampacity.

Article 210.21(B)(1)exception no 2 is very clear.

You select your ampacity requirements from article 630.11(A) for arc welders and use this for your receptacle. The breaker can be up to 200% of the I/eff. This way the breaker does not false trip.

The only time you see a bigger receptacle is if your cable ampacity is 40 amps. They don't make a 40amp outlet so you go up to a 50amp outlet.

If the I/eff is 27amps for a single arc welder the smallest wire would be 10awg. The receptacle can not be larger than a 30amp receptacle as per the table 210.21(B)(3)
Note: instead of using the circuit rating i.e. breaker size you use the cable ampacity as calculated using Ieff.

Of course you could run a larger cable than is required.

I have made a confusing mess!
Bottom line, if a piece of 12/2 or 10/2 was feeding a 50amp plug i would fail it.

I have a problem with my set up.
I have 6/2 with a 50amp circuit but miller recommends no more than 35amp time delay breaker.
The manufacturer gets to dictate whatever they have ul listed. So i should step my breaker size down for my dynasty 210dx.

Cheers



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Simclardy wrote:So i should step my breaker size down for my dynasty 210dx.

Cheers

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Are you going to, though?

Simclardy wrote:

[quote/]

It is generally accepted that a 50 amp welder outlet can be supplied by whatever you choose.

This should not be accepted. You are right to feel bad about an outlet rated more than the cable ampacity.

Article 210.21(B)(1)exception no 2 is very clear.

You select your ampacity requirements from article 630.11(A) for arc welders and use this for your receptacle. The breaker can be up to 200% of the I/eff. This way the breaker does not false trip.

The only time you see a bigger receptacle is if your cable ampacity is 40 amps. They don't make a 40amp outlet so you go up to a 50amp outlet.

If the I/eff is 27amps for a single arc welder the smallest wire would be 10awg. The receptacle can not be larger than a 30amp receptacle as per the table 210.21(B)(3)
Note: instead of using the circuit rating i.e. breaker size you use the cable ampacity as calculated using Ieff.

Of course you could run a larger cable than is required.

I have made a confusing mess!
Bottom line, if a piece of 12/2 or 10/2 was feeding a 50amp plug i would fail it.

I have a problem with my set up.
I have 6/2 with a 50amp circuit but miller recommends no more than 35amp time delay breaker.
The manufacturer gets to dictate whatever they have ul listed. So i should step my breaker size down for my dynasty 210dx.

Cheers



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You must comply with manufacturer's instructions to enjoy UL listing. Does Miller specify, or only recommend 35 amp breaker?

I recieved the welder last week. It was new open box with no manual. I did not read it but the tech from miller stated the 35amps to me. I need to double check. If something happened to my unit and miller found out about my breaker they would probably give me a hard time.
I do plan on changing it out.
I have been unplugging the unit every time i finish welding. I DON'T TRUST ELECTRONICS.
I don't care who makes it. One good surge and kablooee!
Cheers

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Ok glad i double checked. For my unit they say time delay fuse 40amp or normal fuse 50amp.
The maxstar is 35 45.

That's right i said fuse.

There is an information note

" If a circuit breaker is used in place of a fuse, choose a circuit breaker with time-current curves comparable to the recommended fuse."

Are you kidding!

There are no standard breakers with trip curves similar to fuses!

Miller knows this but they don't want to come out and say use fuses.

In some way im kind of proud of miller. Fuses are much more reliable, trip much faster and can handle much higher in-rush current.
EXAMPLE
A typical breaker is rated at 10,000 AIC
That is the maximum fault current it can safely disconnect.

The recommended RK5 fuse has a rating of 200kAIC

The RK5 is rated to trip at 0.01 seconds on a short circuit.
The breaker is supposed to trip at 0.01667.
Almost double the time and that is if everything is working perfect.




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As I read the last two revisions of NEC ALL outlets in garages, outside, or outbuildings are now required to gave GFCI protection. A loophole is to hard wire a welder. All welders require a disconnect. For some it is integral with the machine. Those choosing a wall mounted disconnect, fusing or breaker can be included.

Bill Beauregard wrote:As I read the last two revisions of NEC ALL outlets in garages, outside, or outbuildings are now required to gave GFCI protection. A loophole is to hard wire a welder. All welders require a disconnect. For some it is integral with the machine. Those choosing a wall mounted disconnect, fusing or breaker can be included.

I was not sure so i did not comment on the gfci.

I looked up
article 210.8 in the 2017 nec covering gfci receptacles.

Your right, section B is in gray meaning it was changed. All single phase 150 volt to ground or less 50amps or less must be gfci protected in the following locations bla bla bla.

Section b is for "other than dweling units"

Section a for "dwelling units"
Only requires 125 volt single phase 15 and 20 amp receptacles be gfci protected in the following locations....bla bla bla.

So the homeowner can kill himself but we better protect the shop worker.... lol
Sorry, sometimes i don't get the logic.
Cheers

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2020 hasn't yet been adopted in VT. New language in 210.8(A) adds "through 250-volt" And it specifies residential garages in (2).

No mention of amperage.

As hard wiring is still an option, a disconnect may be a work around.

Good to know. Thanks. I have not done my 2020 continuing ed. I should have guessed.
I understand gfci protection is good but sometimes i get the feeling the code is pushing product.

Today i have to deal with an afci/gfci that i installed for the second time in the last week serving a kitchen counter top.
Stupid thing keeps falling. I suspect the noise from the old fridge could be the cause.
I digress.
Hope the OP got his cord sorted out.



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I too have had my issues with nuisance tripping. Panasonic fans & one model Broan would occasionally trip the GFCI on turn off. I found switching a light together with the fan cured it. Or, a double pole switch was a big help.

I've been chasing my tail with a pool heater tripping GFCI for weeks. Manufacturer had numerous suggestions like "Find the cheapest breaker you can get" but they denied ever having had a problem before.

A functional welder should not trip a GFCI.

Pretty sure welder plugs have separate allowances.

Earth protection trips at least in the UK ( RCD's )tend to be 30ma trigger for house applications but these often cause nuisance tripping when used in outbuildings for a number of reasons where there is often no fault - there are however 80ma trigger breakers that can be used for certain purposes & these never seem to suffer with it in my experience - also when replacing fuses with MCB's there are 4 different curves available according to the nature of the applied load - if there is a high start surge or inductive element in the load a higher letter trip will be needed - I presume similar products are available across the pond if you can locate them from an electrical seller that does more than just house products.

Poland308 wrote:Pretty sure welder plugs have separate allowances.

Regarding what? Bill is correct, you must follow the entire code book as it applies.
Example: gfci rules for receptacles are found in article 210.8. Article 680 covers welding "special equipment". It does not exempt you from 210.8, so you would still gfci project the outlet.
When you get into the overload protection, welders are unique so you would size your breaker according to 680.
Hope that helps.

Ps. Gfci rules for 240 volt rules are newish.
Some states might still be in 2014 code cycle. I know nj takes a while to adopt the new code. You will see alot more gfci equipment in the near future.
I just wired 2 board docks last summer and now residential docks require gfep
Try finding a 100amp gfci/gfep breaker.



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noddybrian wrote:Earth protection trips at least in the UK ( RCD's )tend to be 30ma trigger for house applications but these often cause nuisance tripping when used in outbuildings for a number of reasons where there is often no fault - there are however 80ma trigger breakers that can be used for certain purposes & these never seem to suffer with it in my experience - also when replacing fuses with MCB's there are 4 different curves available according to the nature of the applied load - if there is a high start surge or inductive element in the load a higher letter trip will be needed - I presume similar products are available across the pond if you can locate them from an electrical seller that does more than just house products.

I am going from memory so don't quote me......
In the USA gfci is set at 5ma +/- 1ma for human protection.
If it is ground fault equipment protection gfep/gfpe then it is higher. 2014 boat docks could be 100ma now 2017 it must be set to 30ma and yes it's a pain in the but.
The biggest problem is the distance from the breaker. Because of capacitance and induction it is easy to have a 30ma difference from leg to leg.

What bill has pointed out will effect us once the 2020 cycle kicks in, and it is going to cause headaches for some. It might save some lives and might save some welding circuit board! Lol

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Thanks for all the replies guys. I stopped getting notified when the thread was replied to after the 3rd response so I’m just now seeing most of the responses and it’s really good information. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to break it down Barney style for me and giving me the tools to make an informed decision. This place is awesome and you guys rock!

I finally finished my "Texas Power Strip"...two weeks later! lol

It's a massive, sturdy, rugged beast! The whole thing with the 80ft cord probably weighs as much as I do! To lift it is good exercise I tell you! Toss it around, throw it in the truck, ain't nothing gonna happen to this sucker! It also doubles as a parts holder! lol




Outlets full protected by Eaton breakers

Where I live you might get away with that at your home shop. Anywhere else, there is going to be some inspector wanting to see the UL stickers on EVERY piece. Then they want UL (or other testing laboratory) listing (extensive) specifying it is listed for your application.

These days government spends staggering amounts to prohibit ingenuity.

I'm not criticizing your power center. I'd be proud to have it, I'd use it, at home where an inspector, or OSHA enforcement wouldn't see it.

Up here, Orvis is a big employer. Nearly 50 years ago, my first year instructor in the VT sponsored electrician's school was Chuck Thompson. Chuck was, and is highly respected in the electrical field. He held the job of chief electrician at Orvis maybe 45 years. 35 years after me, my son studied under him. When my son was in school chuck told a story: OSHA had been in. An industrial sewing machine had been bought, and installed. The operator complained about lighting. They found the manufacturer offered a light that fit well in the machine. Orvis bought one. It came with its own cord, you plug in.

Somewhere in OSHA regulations you are limited to one receptacle/cord per machine. When the inspector cited the violation Chuck pointed out that both the sewing machine & the light were UL listed, they were bought to fit together, they shouldn't have to be a single machine, two cords were acceptable. The inspector explained that "the violation is your's you shouldn't have used it".

Yup, home shop/hobby welding here, but really this is for running it to the generator for the few odd-jobs I end up doing on the side.

Oscar,
Someday long after we are gone, an archeologist will dig this up and say "wow, look at the extension cords they used in Texas!"

Cheers

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Simclardy wrote:Oscar,
Someday long after we are gone, an archeologist will dig this up and say "wow, look at the extension cords they used in Texas!"

Cheers

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Exactly what I'm going for!

What will they say when they discover his HTP inventory?

He will be on 'Hoarders' next season. " Here is an interesting case..... you can barely get in this guy's house due to all these red welding machines. Forget trying to get in the shop, or the garage. They are completely stuffed with these red welders. He even has them in his bed! "

lmao, nah, I'm done! dee, oh, en, eee! Done! I have all I'll ever need for my current side jobs and future retirement shop!

Added a volt/ammeter to the Texas Power strip, and I also re-did my old generator extension like it as well.







aaannndd I just had a good look at those UGLY spot/tack welds on those hinges! Yuck! I'm ashamed! But then again, I was in a rush making this. I need to re-do them asap!

I like the power gauge! Maybe you could let us knows what a 1/4"x 12" filet weld uses etc.? Stick vs tig? Cheers

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