Welding Tips and Tricks

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:53 pm**

Hey everybody,

I have a bit of an odd question. I own a 2016 AHP AlphaTIG 200x. The machine only comes with HF start. I was fully aware of this when I bought it and don't regret it at all. For most applications, this is a great feature to have. However, if I end up wanting to do work around any electronics I don't want to be using the HF. I've had it fry things in the past on other machines.

So, my main question is simple. Is there a way to bypass the HF start capabilities of the machine?

To elaborate and get the pot stirring, can I just take the HF contact points in the machine and adjust them so they're completely touching? Can I just remove the HF board? Does anyone foresee this causing damage to the machine in some way if I do this? Any idea on how the machine will act if it doesn't have its HF capabilities (I'm assuming it would act like a scratch start machine but have no basis for that assumption)?

Thanks in advance!

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:57 pm**

What electronics have you fried with HF start? I I use HF all the time on everything and have never fried anything...well my phone digitizer went out a couple of times but I can't prove the HF did it. If you exercise normal caution when welding around any electronics, you shouldn't have any problems. I don't think disabling or modifying a machines HF start would be a good idea but that's your call.

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:09 pm**

I guess I don't have conclusive evidence on the HF frying things either, but it just so happens that after I was welding with an HF start machine all of the pictures on my phone disappeared. I pulled the SD card and tried to get it to read and nothing would happen. The whole card was corrupt and couldn't be reformatted or anything. Maybe the stars just decided to line up that day. Anywho, I never weld with my phone in my pocket anymore so I haven't had that happen again.

The only other thing I've had fry (or I guess just get messed up) was someone else's key FOB for their car. They weren't able to sync it up with their car again to get the unlock and stuff to work. Again, possibly circumstantial.

So you think the HF component is an integral part of the machine as in it wouldn't operate correctly or it might cause damage if it wasn't there?

Thanks!

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:51 pm**

Have you ever tried using a grounding stake with some copper and run the ground outside? That's what my manual and most other manuals I've looked at suggest. You're not supposed to use your water supply or a normal ground for this one either, it should be true to earth ground.

Technically doing that, you should have no fear of HF and electronics.

However to your question, I'm sure someone can give some true advice about disabling the HF all together such as removing the device or bridging the gap. Very interesting question that deserves a real answer for sure

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:46 pm**

If it's an inverter machine then the hf components are likely embedded in not just the hardware boards and such but also in the software.

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:04 pm**

This is from a Dynasty operating manual regarding HF

: snip_20160901190121.jpg (189.99 KiB) Viewed 2453 times

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:45 pm**

Now you've really convinced him to pull the HF out or bridge the gap

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:20 pm**

Will yours tig weld in stick mode?

Not all do, but it will fix your problem if you can just scratch start in stick mode.

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:44 pm**

One of the members here, soutthpaw, is an AHP dealer. He re-tests machines (secondary to the factory test) before he sends them to customers, so hopefully he'll have a thought or two on this topic.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:51 am**

LtBadd wrote:This is from a Dynasty operating manual regarding HF

snip_20160901190121.jpg

That's a low budget manual on how to RF Shield your entire house lol

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:51 am**

LtBadd wrote:This is from a Dynasty operating manual regarding HF

snip_20160901190121.jpg

That's a low budget manual on how to RF Shield your entire house lol

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:58 am**

entity-unknown, nope, I haven't gotten fancy on additional grounding and I haven't driven any copper rods outside. I'd have to get someone out to tell me where the utility lines are located before I got going on that.

Poland308, it is an inverter machine. So, you think that means the machine just may not know what to do at all if the HF wasn't there since its software is depending on the HF to run?

LtBadd, any chance you want to do some charity work and come wire up my house like that haha? Otherwise that diagram isn't in my future.

MinnesotaDave, possibly. When I was newer to welding I remember trying that on accident with a Miller machine. It just kept trying to melt the tungsten to the workpiece though so I haven't done that since. That is how I found out that you can use a TIG wand as a stick electrode holder though.

Artie, thanks. I'll try and send him a message maybe.

Thanks for the discussion so far!

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:18 am**

You have to scratch quickly or it will stick.

The other option that I like is to rest the cup edge on the piece, rock the tungsten down to touch and then back up in one quick motion.

It also holds the piece from moving.

Jody has shown flicking the tungsten with the filler rod - looks great to me, but I've never tried it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:08 am**

GreinTime wrote:
LtBadd wrote:This is from a Dynasty operating manual regarding HF

snip_20160901190121.jpg
That's a low budget manual on how to RF Shield your entire house lol

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Do you have a high end recommendation? Would a copper grounding rod be sufficient?

Hurly26, if I'm not there this Monday by noon, you can start without me!

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:10 am**

Well I found this thread after the OP contacted me and I replied to him. He jumped down my throat for asking why he would want to do this. Anyway I will share my second response that I sent in a PM because I think it will benefit others.

I don't recall reading your thread, ease up. I have never had an issue with welding on a vehicle. Just disconnect the battery first. I'm also an ASE master auto tech with 25 years exp. Worked at an off road shop for a while where we did lots of welding on vehicles. Never had an issue. Connect the work clamp as close to the weld area as possible. Don't ground where the current will pass through bearings, moving parts, ECU etc.
You are buying into internet myths. It's not an issue if you follow common sense.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:21 am**

I can give you proof that it is nothing more than an Internet myth. every gas vehicle has spark plugs that create a high voltage current that passes through the ground and positive sides of the plug hundreds to thousands of time a second. Never damages any other electronics because the voltage never passes through the ECU or other electronics. Follow my advice in the last post and you will not have a problem .
You can strike a modern car with millions of volts of lightening and it won't damage the computer. Just watch this clip from Top Gear. skip to 4 minutes if you are in a rush. https://youtu.be/ve6XGKZxYxA

So now the proof that HV from a tig welder will damage automotive electronics lies squarely with the OP and anyone else in this thread that claims it does!!! I will bet that any actual damage was caused by not following common sense proceedures.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:53 am**

Nice post Lefty! That's the Wardenclyffe'esque lightning generator out in Russia! It's hard to find clips or pix of cars getting struck by the arc from that thing so thank you!

For some entertainment, here's some other high frequency arc (Tesla Coils) shots involving proximity humans AND proximity electronics

Human Arc Battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95tq5J6ioF0

Music Sound Waves and Science (Arc shots come after 4 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3oItpVa9fs

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:05 pm**

Soutthpaw,

Thanks for the response to the thread. I don't think I jumped down your throat and didn't mean to come off like that. I simply said sorry for wasting your time and that I would go do research on the topic elsewhere. Your initial response to my pm made it sound like it was a ridiculous question and you had no idea why I would want to disable HF.

I linked this topic in my original pm so I thought you had already been to the post and had seen the backstory on it. I probably linked it too far down to be easily seen.

Again, I said in my first reply to another comment that I didn't have conclusive evidence on HF ruining electronics. I just had circumstantial evidence that a phone SD card and a key FOB had stopped working after being close to an HF machine. Those are both small things to have ruined. If the same thing happened to a car it would be a lot bigger of an issue. I see now it's a non-issue.

Thanks again

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:53 pm**

If your still worried by stray electricity then Saul Goodman's brother ( Better call Saul ) had the solution !!!!!!!

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:19 pm**

What will erase a memory card is a high static electricity charge. I have a cochlear implant and one of the warnings is that static electricity such as a kid going down a plastic slide can erase the programming of the device.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:24 pm**

entity-unknown wrote:Nice post Lefty! That's the Wardenclyffe'esque lightning generator out in Russia! It's hard to find clips or pix of cars getting struck by the arc from that thing so thank you!

For some entertainment, here's some other high frequency arc (Tesla Coils) shots involving proximity humans AND proximity electronics

Human Arc Battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95tq5J6ioF0

Music Sound Waves and Science (Arc shots come after 4 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3oItpVa9fs

join me or die young Skywalker! That's a cool video

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:27 pm**

Southpaw, I have first hand experience of a lightning strike frying the electronics in a modern car. PCM, BCM, and TCM. There was an arc strike the size of a dime on the roof.

Posted: **Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:31 am**

I agree with sedan man on this one, I've seen lightning royally fuck a car.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:26 am**

Lightning and a Tesla coil or HF start are totally different. Llightning can be 120,000 amps and 100 million volts. That's why it will fry car electronics and anything else it hits. So my argument still stands regarding welding on a vehicle.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:51 am**

soutthpaw wrote: You can strike a modern car with millions of volts of lightening and it won't damage the computer. Just watch this clip from Top Gear. skip to 4 minutes if you are in a rush. https://youtu.be/ve6XGKZxYxA

Welding Tips and Tricks

High Frequency - HF Start Bypass

High Frequency - HF Start Bypass

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