Welding Tips and Tricks

Hi Everyone.

Two different torches cam with my welder, a 17 air cooled and a 20 water cooled. Other than appearing slightly larger than the 17, the 20 is water cooled but is there any other advantage working with either torch?

I guess I need to back up a little and let you all know what I have and my experience. I have arc/stick welded but tig is new to me. My machine is a Everlast PowerTig 250EX with the water cooler. I am just a hobby welder and given that I just purchased that welder I want to keep it on the inexpensive side without wasting money. What should I look out for in so far as the cheap quality stuff and the better quality stuff with out getting my wife even more mad at me by spending a lot more money?

The biggest difference between the 2 torches is the amount of heat you will experience while holding the torch. Water-cooled torches allow you to run 250amps on your machine for the entire duty cycle and your hand won't cook. The 17 is smaller and some find it easier to learn with due to dexterity.

I'd doubt your machine has the duty cycle for 200+ amps to truly heat up the torch, but if you weld something very thick, you'll appreciate the 20 torch and WC. Especially on aluminum. Other than that, theyr'e both great to have.

Cups and lenses are not interchangeable so be aware of that when ordering TIG parts.

Hi,
I've got a WP17 and a CK20. The CK 20 is physically smaller.

WP17 is towards the top of the picture and the CK20 is towards the bottom of the picture WP17 is closer to the quarter. I got SuperFlex cables with the CK20 and it's a great setup.

Dave

An air-cooled torch may require substantially more postflow to protect the tungsten while it's cooling, since it doesn't cool as fast after you terminate the arc.

AR15DCM wrote:Other than appearing slightly larger than the 17, the 20 is water cooled

That doesn't sound right, the 20 should not be larger than the 17. My CK 20 is a hair larger than the Weldcraft 9 (the middle rubber cylinder is a tiny bit larger in diameter, I guess to accommodate the waterflow, but it also seems to be coated in nicer, thicker rubber so might just be that).

The only reason to use the 17 is if you need the portability of using the welder without a cooler. Now that I have a cooler it will require having my nuts in a vice and my family at gun point for me to give up the 20.

He probably has an 18, and thinks it's a 20.

Oscar wrote:He probably has an 18, and thinks it's a 20.

except the torch is clearly labeled as a 20.

AR15DCM wrote: Two different torches cam with my welder, a 17 air cooled and a 20 water cooled. Other than appearing slightly larger than the 17, the 20 is water cooled but is there any other advantage working with either torch?

It's not clear from your question, but you shouldn't use the water cooled torch at all without the cooler running. Using a water cooled torch is so much more comfortable, even at modest current settings, that you will never go back once you use one. You don't have to worry about how close to the head you hold the torch, you won't have to put it down before you're finished, you can wear a lighter glove, and you won't need as much postflow to cool the tungsten. Having said all that, at home I only have an air cooled 17 torch because I don't want to buy a cooler, and I need to be able to take my setup out into the barn or field easily.

Yeah, Dean,

It sounds like you've got everything you need.

I mean, if you've got the water cooler, use the water-cooled torch. And I don't find a CK torch to be any better than the cheap $19, flex and rigid ones. But I do like the CK Superflex hoses. They're not cheap, but they're lighter and mor flexible, of course. I do kind of like the CK FlexLoc and WeldTec RotoHead torches, but I haven't bought one as there seems to be some price-fixing and a mini-monopoly in how both of them are only available with a hose attached, which puts getting either one at about $150, at the least.

Depending on what kind of cup, gas lens, and back cap is installed I suppose a 17 torch could look smaller than a 20/9 torch, but it's usually not the case.

Otherwise, shoot us a photo of 'em.

Is it just me or do both torches in the comparison photo appear to have gas lens's fitted with incorrect insulators ?

cj737 wrote:

Oscar wrote:He probably has an 18, and thinks it's a 20.

except the torch is clearly labeled as a 20.

how can you see it from where you're at without a picture?

noddybrian wrote:Is it just me or do both torches in the comparison photo appear to have gas lens's fitted with incorrect insulators ?

Somewhat correct. The 17 does not have the correct insulator. The 20 seems to have the correct insulator, albeit it looks "off" because it has a slightly larger diameter than the cup.

C. Livingstone wrote: there seems to be some price-fixing and a mini-monopoly in how both of them are only available with a hose attached, which puts getting either one at about $150, at the least.

Incorrect. I bought my WeldTec Roto-head by itself. Without any hoses. I can also, if I choose to, order a CK Flex-loc (or pretty much any CK part that carries an individual part #) by itself.

Really, Oscar,

Why not divulge where you got yours individually, and the price that you paid?

I've looked high and low, so to speak, to buy one individually, and have only seen the Roto-Head torch body itself at around $96, and then the head at another $36, I think it was, i.e., at an inflated-fixed price of about $130, as the only other means of getting one without a hose assembly. And that probably exposes the true cost or retail value of a Superflex hose, too, i.e., about $25.

So, to me, that just further exposes the price-fixing and lack of real competition, as I think it's the same way and same fixed-pricing with the CK Flex-Loc torch parts.

I mean, I trust The Invisible Hand and The Market is taking notice, and that a $32-$40 Asian knock-off may soon follow (I mean, I'm guessing the CK and WeldTec are both already Asian produced anyway), to satisfy both Customer Demand and producing Capital Investors, who would undoubtedly deserve the profit.

Otherwise, let me know, Oscar, if you want to sell your Roto-Head. I'll give you $60 for it!

Oscar wrote:

C. Livingstone wrote: there seems to be some price-fixing and a mini-monopoly in how both of them are only available with a hose attached, which puts getting either one at about $150, at the least.

Incorrect. I bought my WeldTec Roto-head by itself. Without any hoses. I can also, if I choose to, order a CK Flex-loc (or pretty much any CK part that carries an individual part #) by itself.

Oscar wrote:

cj737 wrote:

Oscar wrote:He probably has an 18, and thinks it's a 20.

except the torch is clearly labeled as a 20.

how can you see it from where you're at without a picture?

Look at the third reply.

BigD wrote:

AR15DCM wrote:Other than appearing slightly larger than the 17, the 20 is water cooled

That doesn't sound right, the 20 should not be larger than the 17. My CK 20 is a hair larger than the Weldcraft 9 (the middle rubber cylinder is a tiny bit larger in diameter, I guess to accommodate the waterflow, but it also seems to be coated in nicer, thicker rubber so might just be that).

The only reason to use the 17 is if you need the portability of using the welder without a cooler. Now that I have a cooler it will require having my nuts in a vice and my family at gun point for me to give up the 20.

My keyboard hates you !! It wasn't thirsty ........

Funny !

C. Livingstone wrote:Really, Oscar,

Why not divulge where you got yours individually, and the price that you paid?

I've looked high and low, so to speak, to buy one individually, and have only seen the Roto-Head torch body itself at around $96, and then the head at another $36, I think it was, i.e., at an inflated-fixed price of about $130, as the only other means of getting one without a hose assembly. And that probably exposes the true cost or retail value of a Superflex hose, too, i.e., about $25.

So, to me, that just further exposes the price-fixing and lack of real competition, as I think it's the same way and same fixed-pricing with the CK Flex-Loc torch parts.

I mean, I trust The Invisible Hand and The Market is taking notice, and that a $32-$40 Asian knock-off may soon follow (I mean, I'm guessing the CK and WeldTec are both already Asian produced anyway), to satisfy both Customer Demand and producing Capital Investors, who would undoubtedly deserve the profit.

Otherwise, let me know, Oscar, if you want to sell your Roto-Head. I'll give you $60 for it!

Oscar wrote:

C. Livingstone wrote: there seems to be some price-fixing and a mini-monopoly in how both of them are only available with a hose attached, which puts getting either one at about $150, at the least.

Incorrect. I bought my WeldTec Roto-head by itself. Without any hoses. I can also, if I choose to, order a CK Flex-loc (or pretty much any CK part that carries an individual part #) by itself.

I bought mine from WeldFabulous I think it was. I don't remember the exact price, was about $100 for everything. This was a few years ago. No, I'm not selling it. It is by far my favorite torch.

cj737 wrote:Look at the third reply.

Ah, Look at who posted that picture. Then look at the name of the OP who thinks his "20" is larger than his "17".

Yeah,

I don't think you can get a CK or WeldTec locking torch now for under $130 as parts, or with a hose for under $150.

I mean, I'm anti-Statist and pro-Market, so I think it's right that they sell those torches for whatever price they like, even if the two companies collude in price-fixing them unusually high.

But, hopefully the Market will soon bring about some creative destruction or a solution for customers like me.

C. Livingstone wrote:I mean, I'm anti-Statist and pro-Market, so I think it's right that they sell those torches for whatever price they like, even if the two companies collude in price-fixing them unusually high.

But, hopefully the Market will soon bring about some creative destruction or a solution for customers like me.

Really?? Are you gonna ride that horse into this forum from the other one?? Geez, it's getting old quick. Give it a rest.

C. Livingstone wrote:Yeah, Dean,

It sounds like you've got everything you need.

I mean, if you've got the water cooler, use the water-cooled torch. And I don't find a CK torch to be any better than the cheap $19, flex and rigid ones. But I do like the CK Superflex hoses. They're not cheap, but they're lighter and mor flexible, of course. I do kind of like the CK FlexLoc and WeldTec RotoHead torches, but I haven't bought one as there seems to be some price-fixing and a mini-monopoly in how both of them are only available with a hose attached, which puts getting either one at about $150, at the least.

Depending on what kind of cup, gas lens, and back cap is installed I suppose a 17 torch could look smaller than a 20/9 torch, but it's usually not the case.

Otherwise, shoot us a photo of 'em.

Hi,

Actually the 17 torch I have is like a CK with a Roto head torch and superflex hose. I have not even taken them out of the packaging yet LOL... well just enough to look at them a little bit anyway. I figure that until I get a argon gas tank there is no use really. But I will get them out tomorrow or Wednesday to take some pics. It has been too cold to get out in the garage and mess with it.

kiwi2wheels wrote:

BigD wrote:

AR15DCM wrote:Other than appearing slightly larger than the 17, the 20 is water cooled

That doesn't sound right, the 20 should not be larger than the 17. My CK 20 is a hair larger than the Weldcraft 9 (the middle rubber cylinder is a tiny bit larger in diameter, I guess to accommodate the waterflow, but it also seems to be coated in nicer, thicker rubber so might just be that).

The only reason to use the 17 is if you need the portability of using the welder without a cooler. Now that I have a cooler it will require having my nuts in a vice and my family at gun point for me to give up the 20.

My keyboard hates you !! It wasn't thirsty ........

Funny !

I will get them out and take some pictures...

No,

There's no "horse-riding" going on here from anywhere, Oscar. It's just an expressed and related opinion derived from the Austrian Economic School (which is not a building), and not a cause for whining or demandingness. Or, have you appointing yourself as a moderator here? Or, are you going to be the second cyber-stalker that followed me from the other forum? Honestly, I'd like a sexy, female stalker for a change. Ha, ha, ha...

Why don't you take the beer can welding challenge on this forum, Oscar? I just tried a few cans and it's challenging allright!

Oscar wrote:

C. Livingstone wrote:I mean, I'm anti-Statist and pro-Market, so I think it's right that they sell those torches for whatever price they like, even if the two companies collude in price-fixing them unusually high.

But, hopefully the Market will soon bring about some creative destruction or a solution for customers like me.

Really?? Are you gonna ride that horse into this forum from the other one?? Geez, it's getting old quick. Give it a rest.

C. Livingstone wrote:No,

There's no "horse-riding" going on here from anywhere, Oscar. It's just an expressed and related opinion derived from the Austrian Economic School (which is not a building), and not a cause for whining or demandingness. Or, have you appointing yourself as a moderator here? Or, are you going to be the second cyber-stalker that followed me from the other forum? Honestly, I'd like a sexy, female stalker for a change. Ha, ha, ha...

Why don't you take the beer can welding challenge on this forum, Oscar? I just tried a few cans and it's challenging allright!

Oscar wrote:

C. Livingstone wrote:I mean, I'm anti-Statist and pro-Market, so I think it's right that they sell those torches for whatever price they like, even if the two companies collude in price-fixing them unusually high.

But, hopefully the Market will soon bring about some creative destruction or a solution for customers like me.

Really?? Are you gonna ride that horse into this forum from the other one?? Geez, it's getting old quick. Give it a rest.

Actually, he's been here longer than you by a long shot, so... Not that I agree with him on most things, and he normally rubs me wrong, but at least get the time line correct of you're going to take the bait.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

AR15DCM wrote:Hi,

Actually the 17 torch I have is like a CK with a Roto head torch and superflex hose. I have not even taken them out of the packaging yet LOL... well just enough to look at them a little bit anyway. I figure that until I get a argon gas tank there is no use really. But I will get them out tomorrow or Wednesday to take some pics. It has been too cold to get out in the garage and mess with it.

Sorry for sidetracking AR15DCM, once you get a real good look at them, I think that will settle it all.

Yeah,

I wasn't talking chronology. The following part is a carry-over though.

Of course, Oscar has been a member here longer than me, as most everyone has. And there's probably one or two longer term members here that may decided to "follow" me too, like was their habit at the other forum.

But this forum seems to be friendlier, while having no biased moderation against Everlast or Asian machines, and is not so mercantilist. I like that.

I like the other forum too, for the higher volume of discourse and spirited debate though.

Otherwise, more in the context of this Torch thread, I swapped to a #9 torch last night, since that was the only one that I had with collets and a gas lens for a smaller tungsten size, and since I use a stubby lens on my #17 torch I was noticing how close the collets and gas lens' were, also the torchs themselves. So, I think I've decided to just ditch the #9 torch and all of its paraphernalia to keep things simplier, and use the 17 or 26 torches only.
[/quote]
Actually, he's been here longer than you by a long shot, so... Not that I agree with him on most things, and he normally rubs me wrong, but at least get the time line correct of you're going to take the bait.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk[/quote]

Oscar wrote:

AR15DCM wrote:Hi,

Actually the 17 torch I have is like a CK with a Roto head torch and superflex hose. I have not even taken them out of the packaging yet LOL... well just enough to look at them a little bit anyway. I figure that until I get a argon gas tank there is no use really. But I will get them out tomorrow or Wednesday to take some pics. It has been too cold to get out in the garage and mess with it.

Sorry for sidetracking AR15DCM, once you get a real good look at them, I think that will settle it all.

I got them out this morning and took at a look at them. Both are the same size with the exception of the handle where the water line runs through it making it slight larger in diameter. But the end of the torches where the gas lense, alumina cups screw in are the same size.

Well there we go.