[TraditionalToolworks]

Guys,

I have a number of things I was wondering specifically related to aluminum as I get geared up for it.

1) I know most people use acetone to clean their metals, I normally do also, but I hate to say I can't find my Sure-Shot, and I know it has to be in the shop somewhere unless someone walked away with it...my small shop is so crammed I need to start digging...but I do have some denatured alcohol. When I clean some aluminum it seems I continue to get some grey/black on the paper towel no matter how long I seem to keep wiping...same with the filler, is that normal?

2) I have 1 (may have more) grinding disk for aluminum for my angle grinder. I need to experiment but my gut tells me it's gonna chew things up if I use it on a piece of aluminum, and not sure I want to do that. In theory the outer layer is what needs to be burned through when welding alu, and what is the tougher layer, so I don't want to grind that away do I?

3) Do you keep other material separated from alu? Many people keep stainless separated from carbon and only use stainless brushes on stainless and don't get any carbon on it. Is that true of alu as well? IOW, mixing grinding disks, wire brushes, such like that for normal prep?

4) Any good way to determine what a piece of alu is? In most cases I'm gonna assume it's 6061, but I have bought some 7075 in the past. Anyway to tell without trying to prep and weld it? Like looking at clean cut or other?

5) Do any of you use pointed tungsten for aluminum, or in general is it considered better to use the blunt crayon type end. Seems that Jody uses a point in some cases. I understand this may have to do with amps. Most of my work will probably be done on 1/16" - 1/8" material, with occasional 1/4" work. But 1/4" is in the upper range of what I can comfortably do, and I plan to use a CK17 for most work, probably with 1/4" I would use my #26. Let's say for up to 1/8", do you guys get good results with pointed tungsten?

6) This is a beginner alu question, but my first experiments showed that if I left the filler in the gas area it would heat up and ball up. With alu do you pull the filler out of the gas area entirely for each dab? In the past I've thought that was bad to do on carbon as it would allow the filler to get contaminated from the air, but trying that with alu doesn't seem to work. Could be I can't distinguish between the cone and the gas coverage as well on the alu.

I know, a number of basic Qs, just want to make sure I have a good understanding.

[Poland308]

Aluminum starts oxidizing instantly. Like fractions of a second. Plus it’s relatively soft so you will literally be scuffing off some aluminum with paper rags.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Josh,

Is it acceptable to use denatured alcohol as a replacement for acetone?

[Spartan]

You can use IPA to clean aluminum. Probably won't be quite as good at cutting through grease and oils as acetone but it is way better than no wipe down at all. I sometimes use a cleaner that is a 50/50 mix of acetone and 91% IPA. Easier on the hands and gloves. I use that for cleaning a lot of things in the shop, including AL prior to welding on occasion.

[Spartan]

2) I have 1 (may have more) grinding disk for aluminum for my angle grinder. I need to experiment but my gut tells me it's gonna chew things up if I use it on a piece of aluminum, and not sure I want to do that. In theory the outer layer is what needs to be burned through when welding alu, and what is the tougher layer, so I don't want to grind that away do I?

You can grind that oxide layer away, but it will form again almost instantly. I typically only grind aluminum if it is particularly dirty, and usually that is done with a flap disk.

3) Do you keep other material separated from alu? Many people keep stainless separated from carbon and only use stainless brushes on stainless and don't get any carbon on it. Is that true of alu as well? IOW, mixing grinding disks, wire brushes, such like that for normal prep?

Always.

4) Any good way to determine what a piece of alu is? In most cases I'm gonna assume it's 6061, but I have bought some 7075 in the past. Anyway to tell without trying to prep and weld it? Like looking at clean cut or other?

Not that I know of, other than the 2000 and 3000 series can sometimes feel a bit heavier and will occasionally show some oxidation unlike the more common series. Having marked/known AL alloys is important.

5) Do any of you use pointed tungsten for aluminum, or in general is it considered better to use the blunt crayon type end. Seems that Jody uses a point in some cases. I understand this may have to do with amps. Most of my work will probably be done on 1/16" - 1/8" material, with occasional 1/4" work. But 1/4" is in the upper range of what I can comfortably do, and I plan to use a CK17 for most work, probably with 1/4" I would use my #26. Let's say for up to 1/8", do you guys get good results with pointed tungsten?

Never, but you certainly could. Probably depends more on your amperage and welder's capabilities than anything else.

6) This is a beginner alu question, but my first experiments showed that if I left the filler in the gas area it would heat up and ball up. With alu do you pull the filler out of the gas area entirely for each dab? In the past I've thought that was bad to do on carbon as it would allow the filler to get contaminated from the air, but trying that with alu doesn't seem to work. Could be I can't distinguish between the cone and the gas coverage as well on the alu.

I pull the filler rod back farther with AL than I do with steel, but not too far. I still like to keep it under the shielding gas as best I can, but no ide aif that is actually critical or not.

[TraditionalToolworks]

You can use IPA to clean aluminum. Probably won't be quite as good at cutting through grease and oils as acetone but it is way better than no wipe down at all. I sometimes use a cleaner that is a 50/50 mix of acetone and 91% IPA. Easier on the hands and gloves. I use that for cleaning a lot of things in the shop, including AL prior to welding on occasion.

That's why I try to use diesel/kerosene in the shop for cleaning metal as it leaves a lubricating residue on the metal which actually will help it over time, but more importantly you can actually wash your hands in diesel/kerosene and it won't bother your hands. I learned this from an old blacksmith...some people have concerns with the fumes, but I just be careful. And it's NOT good for welding as the lubricating residue is not good for the arc.

My hands, especially around my ring, don't like acetone at all. If I use it I need to make sure I wish my thoroughly or they start itching like crazy...and yes, I wash my hands a lot more since the crisis anyway.

[TraditionalToolworks]

You can grind that oxide layer away, but it will form again almost instantly. I typically only grind aluminum if it is particularly dirty, and usually that is done with a flap disk.

Ah, that's something I didn't know. That means it comes from the atmosphere...

3) Do you keep other material separated from alu? Many people keep stainless separated from carbon and only use stainless brushes on stainless and don't get any carbon on it. Is that true of alu as well? IOW, mixing grinding disks, wire brushes, such like that for normal prep?

Always.

Ok, will do. I need to get some wire brushes and such to do that.

Not that I know of, other than the 2000 and 3000 series can sometimes feel a bit heavier and will occasionally show some oxidation unlike the more common series. Having marked/known AL alloys is important.

Good to know.

Never, but you certainly could. Probably depends more on your amperage and welder's capabilities than anything else.

Ok, I will work on blunting those tips for alu.

I pull the filler rod back farther with AL than I do with steel, but not too far. I still like to keep it under the shielding gas as best I can, but no ide aif that is actually critical or not.

Ok, and it must be for the same reason, that it heats up and melts if you get it too close.

Thanks for your response...

[Spartan]

Ok, and it must be for the same reason, that it heats up and melts if you get it too close.

Absolutely. Stepping up one size in filler rod and making smaller/quicker dabs can also help. Burn back with AL filler rods can really be a pain sometimes, especially when pumping out a lot of heat.

[Oscar]

Even though the oxide layer begins to form instantly, that is not to say that it instantly returns to it's former state before you brushed it away. What begins to form instantly is only in the single-digit nanometer range, so don't let the fact that it begins to form immediately deter you from brushing it off, as brushing it off will help promote cleaner welds overall. It won't return to it's former state 100% until days most probably (assuming it was relatively clean aluminum).

You shouldn't be taking the rod too far out of the shielding gas envelope. If you do, and it is still sufficiently hot, it will oxidize rapidly and then when you re-introduce you may get floating specks of soot. If it is balling up you may want to investigate your arc length and torch angle, as well as the thickness of the filler rod you are using for the application.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Even though the oxide layer begins to form instantly, that is not to say that it instantly returns to it's former state before you brushed it away. What begins to form instantly is only in the single-digit nanometer range, so don't let the fact that it begins to form immediately deter you from brushing it off, as brushing it off will help promote cleaner welds overall. It won't return to it's former state 100% until days most probably (assuming it was relatively clean aluminum).

Do you mean brushing it off with the grinding wheel? No, I didn't expect it to auto-magically get back to where it was before I would grind it, just that I didn't realize that layer was formed naturally. At least it sounded that way.

You shouldn't be taking the rod too far out of the shielding gas envelope. If you do, and it is still sufficiently hot, it will oxidize rapidly and then when you re-introduce you may get floating specks of soot. If it is balling up you may want to investigate your arc length and torch angle, as well as the thickness of the filler rod you are using for the application.

Understood. this was using 1/16" filler at 137 amps which I also think was too hot for 1/8" material. Thanks.

[tweake]

Guys,

2) I have 1 (may have more) grinding disk for aluminum for my angle grinder. I need to experiment but my gut tells me it's gonna chew things up if I use it on a piece of aluminum, and not sure I want to do that. In theory the outer layer is what needs to be burned through when welding alu, and what is the tougher layer, so I don't want to grind that away do I?

two issues you have to watch. there is a risk of pushing bits of aluminum oxide into the aluminum, and clogging of your flapper wheel etc.
variable speed grinder comes in real handy. slowing it right down helps a lot.
aluminum can vary a lot in hardness depending on what heat treatment thats been done to it.

also if its new and clean, no need to get out the grinder. the cleaning action will deal to the thin layer of oxide. its the thick layer of oxide from when the aluminium has ben sitting for a long time (especially in wet aeras).
for repair work you really have to grind it clean as its often heavly oxidized.

3) Do you keep other material separated from alu? Many people keep stainless separated from carbon and only use stainless brushes on stainless and don't get any carbon on it. Is that true of alu as well? IOW, mixing grinding disks, wire brushes, such like that for normal prep?

yes keep them seperate.

4) Any good way to determine what a piece of alu is? In most cases I'm gonna assume it's 6061, but I have bought some 7075 in the past. Anyway to tell without trying to prep and weld it? Like looking at clean cut or other?

no idea

5) Do any of you use pointed tungsten for aluminum, or in general is it considered better to use the blunt crayon type end. Seems that Jody uses a point in some cases. I understand this may have to do with amps. Most of my work will probably be done on 1/16" - 1/8" material, with occasional 1/4" work. But 1/4" is in the upper range of what I can comfortably do, and I plan to use a CK17 for most work, probably with 1/4" I would use my #26. Let's say for up to 1/8", do you guys get good results with pointed tungsten?

pointed tip is good for starting arcs. but you also need a rounded tip for the cleaning action to work properly.
the reason i like the crayon tip is to avoid the tip melting back werdly and causing issues. but you pay the price on the starts.
for 1/8" aluminium a 1/8 electrode holds a resonable point. 3/32 can be borderline. i would be using the #26 torch for 1/8" aluminium. start doing long runs with a #26 and it can get to hot to hold.
its all relitive to how much cleaning action you run, which is what heats the tungsten and torch up so much.
1/4" aluminium your into water cooled tig torch or helium.

6) This is a beginner alu question, but my first experiments showed that if I left the filler in the gas area it would heat up and ball up. With alu do you pull the filler out of the gas area entirely for each dab? In the past I've thought that was bad to do on carbon as it would allow the filler to get contaminated from the air, but trying that with alu doesn't seem to work. Could be I can't distinguish between the cone and the gas coverage as well on the alu.

watch your arc length and angle. one of the hard bits that is coutering the growth in height of the bead. you will see in jody video's he lifts the torch up as he feeds rod so the tungsten doesn't go for a swim. i can't do that so tend to compensate in other ways.

there is a lot of different ways of doing things and it takes a bit of trail and error to see whats the best for you.

[robtg]

https://welding-tv.com/category/aluminum-welding/

Everything you need to know about tig welding aluminum.

[Oscar]

Do you mean brushing it off with the grinding wheel? No, I didn't expect it to auto-magically get back to where it was before I would grind it, just that I didn't realize that layer was formed naturally. At least it sounded that way.


Understood. this was using 1/16" filler at 137 amps which I also think was too hot for 1/8" material. Thanks.

Nope, I said "brushing" and meant "brushing". Never would I take a grinding -wheel/-disc/-anything near aluminum that I intend to weld. Embedding oxides into the aluminum that should be free of oxides is not something I want to take a chance on. Some people do it and get away with it. I don't have such luck on my side.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Nope, I said "brushing" and meant "brushing". Never would I take a grinding -wheel/-disc/-anything near aluminum that I intend to weld. Embedding oxides into the aluminum that should be free of oxides is not something I want to take a chance on. Some people do it and get away with it. I don't have such luck on my side.

Ok, thanks for pointing that out. tweake beat you to the punch above.

Seriously I do appreciate knowing that, and does that go for flap wheels as well? I'm guessing it does as it's similar to grinding at a finer level. I will just clean and weld, since most all aluminum is pretty clean as-is. Some of the scrap I get is dinged up and dirty, but it usually cleans up.

When you mill it or turn it on the lathe it's extremely shiny! Must be because it has absolutely no protection on it at that point. It does get a residue on it over time, case in point is vise jaws.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Everything you need to know about tig welding aluminum.

Maybe so, but can't easily search there and and no index so can't locate "sharpening electrode aluminum".

I can do that with Jody's videos on YouTube.

Good point, but what would be the sense of having these forums if we couldn't interact with other people.

That site seems to point to the Weldmonger store, as well as this forum, but uses the non-secure link to this forum. Not a huge deal but if you login with the secure url you don't get logged out all the time.

I honestly didn't know that actually existed, thanks for pointing that out. It also points to his latest video as well. I subscribe to his channel on YT.

(I bookmarked that so that I have it for reference)

[tweake]

Nope, I said "brushing" and meant "brushing". Never would I take a grinding -wheel/-disc/-anything near aluminum that I intend to weld. Embedding oxides into the aluminum that should be free of oxides is not something I want to take a chance on. Some people do it and get away with it. I don't have such luck on my side.

Ok, thanks for pointing that out. tweake beat you to the punch above.

Seriously I do appreciate knowing that, and does that go for flap wheels as well? I'm guessing it does as it's similar to grinding at a finer level. I will just clean and weld, since most all aluminum is pretty clean as-is. Some of the scrap I get is dinged up and dirty, but it usually cleans up.

When you mill it or turn it on the lathe it's extremely shiny! Must be because it has absolutely no protection on it at that point. It does get a residue on it over time, case in point is vise jaws.

when i talk about "grinding" its not using a grinding wheel. hard disks won't work. flap disks work okish in the larger grit sizes and slow speed. die grinder you can get bits made for aluminmum or use a steel one at slow speed.
you need to shape the metal somehow so your going to be using something.
some people will use a file to finish a cut edge. i like to use a deburing tool to smooth off any sharp edges. any little sharp bit tends to blow up when welding amps hits it.
a wire brush stroked in one direction only is the last mechanical clean before being wiped off with actetone.

welding scrap can be a pain, gets dirt pushed into it, oil soaked in it. not much fun for learning with.

[bplayer405]

Was cleaning up some salvaged aluminum sheet from a boat last night. Found that a flap wheel will get off carpet glue and that brake cleaners main ingredient is acetone.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[Spartan]

...welding scrap can be a pain, gets dirt pushed into it, oil soaked in it. not much fun for learning with.

Completely agree, and what a shame that is since scrapyard aluminum is just so CHEAP! The thicker bits do serve as nice chill blocks and fixturing pieces, though.

[TraditionalToolworks]

...welding scrap can be a pain, gets dirt pushed into it, oil soaked in it. not much fun for learning with.

Completely agree, and what a shame that is since scrapyard aluminum is just so CHEAP! The thicker bits do serve as nice chill blocks and fixturing pieces, though.

Guys, what I call scrap is what I can get from SIMS, much of it is certified Kaiser blocks and/or sheet, but some has gotten dinged from just sitting around and/or dirty the same. I do clean what I have if it is dirty, but don't want you to think I go to the scrap yard to get it, everything I get comes from SIMS or SouthBay Metals. I buy mostly all new metal from the later.

I also try to buy decent stuff, normally if it is pretty dinged up I pass. That said some of my scraps could have a few dings and/or dirt that needs to be cleaned up.

[Spartan]

...welding scrap can be a pain, gets dirt pushed into it, oil soaked in it. not much fun for learning with.

Completely agree, and what a shame that is since scrapyard aluminum is just so CHEAP! The thicker bits do serve as nice chill blocks and fixturing pieces, though.

Guys, what I call scrap is what I can get from SIMS, much of it is certified Kaiser blocks and/or sheet, but some has gotten dinged from just sitting around and/or dirty the same. I do clean what I have if it is dirty, but don't want you to think I go to the scrap yard to get it, everything I get comes from SIMS or SouthBay Metals. I buy mostly all new metal from the later.

I also try to buy decent stuff, normally if it is pretty dinged up I pass. That said some of my scraps could have a few dings and/or dirt that needs to be cleaned up.

I love scrap. I'm fortunate to have both a few major scrap yards near me, in addition to a few machine shops that send them all of their drop offs. Steel, stainless, aluminum, and copper/bronze are plentiful. A lot of it is quite clean, some of it is not. AL can be a challenge sometimes as I mentioned, especially if it was left outside for any period.

I use scrap every chance I get for personal projects, neighbor/father in law projects, etc. Customer jobs get quoted material sourced direct form proper suppliers.

[BugHunter]

My favorite way to clean up aluminum is just Boraxo hand soap in hot water and either just my hands or a scotch-brite pad with it. Rinse well and that's it for me. I'd have to be working on some really crazy important project to get me to spend time on it with caustic cleaners. I'd say I get parts 90% as clean with 0% of the chemical danger to my health, and I am ok with only getting 100% clean on rare occasions.