[pkele]

Hey all,
I have the opportunity to upgrade my tig welder. The two machines I’ve whittled it down to are the Miller Synchorwave 210 and the HTP Invertig 221.

I really like the features, power, and portability of the HTP, but I’m a little worried about the lack of retailers and distribution. I know that everyone says that the machines and customer service are fantastic and that goes a lot way to helping my decision, but the reservation remains.

With the Miller, the packaging of the unit and the brand quality are great. I know that the quality is backed by service centers and by a large company that has been around a long time. Unfortunately, I do know a guy that his Synchrowave board burn up and had to go through 3 weeks of waiting to get it back…one point of data does not a trend make, but still. Also, I’ve been looking for real world reviews or example videos of the unit being used, but it’s just not as abundant as the HTP.

Bottom line is that I’ll be doing mostly thin aluminum (0.040” – 0.125”) and could use some advice on which machine may perform better in this area. Any firsthand experience with these two machines would be really appreciated!

[JustTheDad]

HTP !

I was going to get the HTP when I found a used dynasty with 56 hours on it that had been with a nascar team for 2 or 3 years, and bought that based on people here saying it was a good deal. Added bonus is it's the machine the guys teaching my son use at work.

No complaints, but from everything discussed, the HTP would still be better on thin aluminum than my dynasty. Unless I spend $500 on that software card to get asymmetric AC options, in which case the Dynasty and HTP will be about the same.

We're welding steel now, so no plans to get that option at this time, unless someone on the board upgrades and offers to sell their card.

[cj737]

Between the HTP and the Synchrowave, the HTP. Between a Dynasty and an InverTIG, the Dynasty.

Either the HTP or the Dynasty (not your considered machine) will weld thin aluminum equally well stock out of the box. The Synchrowave is a very good machine, but the HTP does have some advanced features that you will enjoy and benefit from. Support is reported to be tp notch, and I’ve not seen anyone with reported Warranty issues.

[Mac's Crew]

HTP... the service is going to be better... maybe a wee bit slower if you have to send it in... but better. I ordered a dinse plug for my Lincoln from them the service was way better than Lincoln. That is what I have to say. Service

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[LtBadd]

A little off topic, a few weeks back I sent an email to the tech address at USAWeld, it was a Sunday and I expected a response on Monday, within 3 hours Jeff answered my email.

[Oscar]

Most people that weld "thin" aluminum with Millers usually just get the Dynasty. The synchrowave seems like a great all around machine, and I'm sure it can do 0.040" aluminum just fine in the hands of someone experienced with aluminum in that range and that specific machine. To me "thin" is more like <0.040" or so, using 030 or 035 MIG wire as filler. That's where things become like a black hole singularity - "physics" starts to break down, aka you need to be REAL good to be welding aluminum thinner than that, as not just any old technique will work like they do welding 16ga and thicker. I think both would be capable, the Invertig 221 just has more adjustability in it's favor.

[pkele]

Thanks a lot guys, that's great info. I've been leaning towards the HTP just based on the number of features at that price point.

Side question...does anyone know how long HTP has been producing welding equipment?

[Spartan]

Side question...does anyone know how long HTP has been producing welding equipment?

*distributing

[Oscar]

Yea, they've been distributing welding machines, since the 80's. I don't know who their manufacturer was back then, but right now Stel is their main supplier.

[pkele]

Ah ha! Two great bits of info, thank you!

[TraditionalToolworks]

You have a Miller mig and a Miller plasma, why not consider the Dynasty 210dx rather than the Synchrowave 210 ??? In all honestly though, your AHP will probably handle the type of welding you're talking about doing. Seems like you're talking about 30-150 amps, doesn't the AHP cover that range? The site says it will do 10-200 amps. Not trying to discourage you from getting a new welder, just saying to be realistic about it. Maybe a new torch and/or water cooler might make your AHP more to your liking. I'd dump those crap consumables if you haven't already. I did on my Everlast, doesn't have anything on it that came with it other than the power cord.

Unless I spend $500 on that software card to get asymmetric AC options, in which case the Dynasty and HTP will be about the same.

I'm a bit surprised that you don't seem too happy with your Dynasty, I wish I could afford to drop some coin on one, but to be honest the Primeweld is working out pretty good for me and I don't think it would make me that much of a better welder, it would be nice to have a better tool. I've got other stuff to buy.

Why not just buy the software card and be happy? Not like $500 will break the bank for you, at least doesn't seem so.

That card is not gonna make you a better tig welder, nor will it make your son one. Spend time under the hood, eventually you can get the card anytime you want or need it.

I feel stronger than ever, Miller is the gold standard. Buy once, cry once.

[pkele]

You have a Miller mig and a Miller plasma, why not consider the Dynasty 210dx rather than the Synchrowave 210 ??? In all honestly though, your AHP will probably handle the type of welding you're talking about doing. Seems like you're talking about 30-150 amps, doesn't the AHP cover that range? The site says it will do 10-200 amps. Not trying to discourage you from getting a new welder, just saying to be realistic about it. Maybe a new torch and/or water cooler might make your AHP more to your liking. I'd dump those crap consumables if you haven't already. I did on my Everlast, doesn't have anything on it that came with it other than the power cord.

Believe me, keeping the colors the same is part of the equation I'm trying to be objective and focus on what I'll actually need now and in the future. The Dynasty is $1.5-2k over budget for me...believe me, I'd love to get it!
The AHP is a bit of a story...the high amperage still works great but at low amps it's become unreliable (sometimes dosen't start, wandering messy arc until its floored then back off and its fine, will drop the arc at random). It's the older version (switches on bottom of the pannel, no frequency adjustment) and parts are not available anymore. I've already talked to AHP, adjusted the spark gap, replaced the peddle with an SSC, CK torch, new ground clamp, and gas reg. Clean argon and power provided, I've switched out both multiple times. Realistically, I've had the AHP since 2012 and wasn't expecting much then...it was a $700 inverter tig unit on ebay, and it's done a great job until recently.

I'll keep thinking about the Dynasty if that's a serious contender. I don't NEED to buy anything immediately, but just wanted to take advantage of some opportunities right now.

[JustTheDad]

Unless I spend $500 on that software card to get asymmetric AC options, in which case the Dynasty and HTP will be about the same.

I'm a bit surprised that you don't seem too happy with your Dynasty

Easy there, Alan. Don't assume I'm not happy with my Dynasty. It wound up costing me several hundred less than a new HTP would have and I think it's awesome. The controls I need to use are pretty simple and it's easy to weld with. Absolutely no complaints.

That said, the stock HTP has some nice features that would cost me about $500 to add to my machine. Features that I don't need right now, but which might be appreciated by PKele when he's welding aluminum. He also may not need those features, but I thought he should be aware of them and the cost to add them to the dynasty. Maybe I should have said the HTP could potentially be better on thin aluminum than my dynasty. Maybe those added features are useless to PKele or for anyone welding thin aluminum. The reality is, I don't know, but my understanding was they can make it easier to weld aluminum.

[LtBadd]

Easy there, Alan. Don't assume I'm not happy with my Dynasty.

I forget, which Dynasty do you have?

[TraditionalToolworks]

Maybe I should have said the HTP could potentially be better on thin aluminum than my dynasty.

I think your wrong.

Maybe those added features are useless to PKele or for anyone welding thin aluminum. The reality is, I don't know

I agree, you don't know, you're only guessing.

[Oscar]

Unless someone is constantly welding precision parts at the aerospace-level of scrutiny, I'd say at any thickness above 0.010"-0.015" both machines will be just as good. The low-end on the Invertig 221 is crazy good with the right tungsten. But if you're doing parts from 0.001"-0.010" day-in-day-out, the Dynasty210dx would be the right choice WITH the polarity-specific wave-form option enabled. Just IMO of course.

[BugHunter]

I weld a fair amount of "thin" aluminum. It's pretty much the main thing I weld. I have a Dynasty. It's got all the whiz-bang "features" for aluminum, but fact is, I rarely use any of those other than 200-400hz AC. Maybe it's just because I welded it so long with a machine that didn't have all those features, but I really don't find many of them to be all that helpful. Proper torch, proper tungsten, proper filler, good cleaning, steady hands, and everything else takes care of itself (imho).

I recently read a thread here that Oscar pointed me to, a guy did a write up on asymmetric waveshapes and power levels. that was very intriguing but I've never had time since to play with those settings.

Of the features available on the Dynasty, I find I use the programmability of repetitive welds more so than pulse or asymmetric waves. Ymmv.

[JustTheDad]

I forget, which Dynasty do you have?

Hi Richard, I bought a used Miller Dynasty 210 DX with a cooler from Miller a few weeks ago. The standard package I think. cart, pedal, 25' torch lead. No software upgrade card. I have no need for it right now. Not going to be welding aluminum in the near future, and even when I do, it may not be worth it.

Alan, you're right. I don't "know" that the asymetric wave options will make it easier for PKele to weld thin aluminum. I do know that everything I've read about the function indicates it could. Oscar seems to agree with that. I read a lot before buying and so did the guys who have tried that feature or have tried both machines and then posted their thoughts online.

Why do you have such a hard time with the possibility that it could be easier to weld thin aluminum with the HTP or the Miller with that software, than with my Miller without that software upgrade? Miller obviously thinks the feature is worth $500. So do a lot of the people who were willing to pay for it.

It really feels like you're trying to defend the honor of the dynasty 210DX or something, but I promise you, I haven't hurt its feelings by pointing out that the HTP can do things it can't in it's current form. Have you personally compared the stock Dynasty to the HTP on aluminum and found that the stock Dynasty was better? I've yet to find anyone who's tried both that has said that.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Alan, you're right. I don't "know" that the asymetric wave options will make it easier for PKele to weld thin aluminum.

I wouldn't get too caught up with technical details on paper, that 210DX will weld just about anything you need to, even without the software card...many people using those Dynastys without the upgrade, and welding plenty of thin aluminum. You've got a great machine, no reason to feel short changed.

Why do you have such a hard time with the possibility that it could be easier to weld thin aluminum with the HTP or the Miller with that software, than with my Miller without that software upgrade?

Why? Because you haven't even tried to weld ANY aluminum, thick or thin, so how would you know what your machine does until you use it? Honestly, that software upgrade is not gonna magically help you weld thin aluminum. You have barely laid a bead and already conceding the HTP is better. Even if you had an HTP beside your Dynasty you couldn't say one way or the other which machine is better for thin aluminum. Not trying to criticize you, just encourage you to get some hood time rather than reading time.

It really feels like you're trying to defend the honor of the dynasty 210DX or something

Not sure why you would say that, I have no honor with the Dynasty, I own a Primeweld. But I have been leaning towards the Dynasty for the future, rather than the HTP, even without the software card upgrade. I don't think it's even needed for most welding one would do on it.

How do you explain BugHunter's reply???

He doesn't even use all of the features of the Dynasty and welds thin aluminum all the time per his comment above.

There is nothing wrong with the Dynasty when welding thin aluminum. My $0.02, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say the software card really doesn't even matter, you have enough settings on the Dynasty without it to be a great welder. Don't get caught up in literature.

[cj737]

@Dad - on your 210, switch to triangular waveform on thin aluminum and watch! The expansion card has some potential for specific code applications or unique requirements, but truly isn’t necessary.

I don’t think the HTP has the same waveforms available stock, and the Miller expansion card does enable other features the HTP (and others) don’t have. Yes, it’s $500. But if you make a living welding and only need 200 amps, that box is king. No matter the price.

Many of the Millers cost more because they can run multiple voltages, single or three phase from the same box. The 210 will even run off 115v all the way up to 3ph 480. That is a very convenient feature as the machine is portable.

But between an HTP and a Synchrowave, I’d still but the HTP. But a Dynasty over all others.

[JustTheDad]

Edited because my response sounded as touchy as Alan's did to me, and I apologize for that, and also if I'm reading too much into your post Alan. There's no inflection on an internet post, so it's tough to know.

CJ,
That seems like a helpful explanation of the differences between the dynasty and the htp features. One can change the waveform shape, one can have different EN and EP amperages. According to the person I spoke to at Miller, independent AC is the only feature that card will add to my machine since mine already has the latest software. The way the two machines were explained to me by the manufacturers (I called before buying) is that with the Miller, you set each amperage independently when you have the option. On the HTP you set one amplitude as a percentage of the other. Pretty much the same thing if you can do basic math.

The guys teaching my son both have different preferences on settings when they weld. Like BugHunter, one doesn't bother with the asymmetrical AC or even the wave form. I get the sense he enjoys making welding a challenge. He has other career goals and welding full-time is getting boring for him. He doesn't even like to use the rotary table because he doesn't need to. Apparently it's more fun to get a perfect bead without "cheating".

The other guy teaching us seems happy to use every piece of tech and every accessory availability to let him weld faster and cleaner. Independent AC, different waveforms, even different point shapes for different joints or metals. He likes the tech and wants to build up his own welding business.

Neither of them thinks I will "need" the independent AC option for aluminum. One has mentioned we might like the triangular waveform on thin aluminum "when" we get to it. But, both he and the guys at Miller thought we "would" like the independent AC control if we got it. It sounds like it makes it easier to maintain a tip and get a narrow cleaning zone when you want that.

I get a kick out of the fact that anyone thinks I'm ever going to be welding aluminum in a critical application where even the appearance of the joint matters. I doubt I'll ever weld aluminum less than an eighth of an inch thick. Regardless, I'm not trying to talk the original poster into or out of either machine and I'm not claiming to know which of the feature sets is best for him. When I made the post that bothered Alan, the Dynasty wasn't even one of the choices. If the OP is considering a Dynasty, I think that in the absence of being able to try both machines for himself, he should learn what he can about them, try to talk to people who have used both machines, and read the reviews by the people who have or have used both machines. I found 2 of those online. One guy said he thought he'd miss the triangular waveform using the HTP, but didn't because the HTP's ability to adjust the AC balance made up for it. The other guy simply preferred the HTP and then bought the upgrade card for his Dynasty 210. I run clinical trials for a living and an n of 2 is almost nothing. But it's better than an n of 0. I never said any of those features are necessary, and I corrected myself to say the AC adjustments of the HTP might be useful to PKele, and that I don't know if they will.

Two people have expressed concern I'm disappointed with my dynasty based on my posts. I'm not. I don't think about equipment that way. I bought a John Deere tractor when I would have preferred the equivalent Kubota model. I found my tractor with 9 hours on it for a $9K discount from what the dealers wanted for a new Kubota. It was $11K less than the JD from the 2 local dealers. For me, the Kubota would have been the better machine if I'd bought new. For someone near me whose livelihood depended on their tractor, the JD might be better. I'm not disappointed in my JD tractor, but shopping new, it wouldn't have been the best choice for me. I've had the Deere 6 years now. I put the 10k I saved into aapl stock for my kids, so I truly love my Deere tractor.
AGAIN, I'm not disappointed in either of my Miller machines either, and don't feel the HTP would have been a better option for me given what I paid for the dynasty. I think the HTP would have been the far better option for me if I hadn't gotten a Dynasty with a warranty for several hundred dollars less than the price of the HTP. The point of this thread was whether the HTP or the Synchrowave was a better option for the OP. CJ737 offered some good info on the Dynasty if that's now in consideration.

I am curious if BugHunter uses the triangular wave on his. He doesn't use the asymmetrical AC option and he has access to that.

[Oscar]

The way the two machines were explained to me by the manufacturers (I called before buying) is that with the Miller, you set each amperage independently when you have the option. On the HTP you set one amplitude as a percentage of the other. Pretty much the same thing if you can do basic math.

Absolutely correct. The main advantage of the independent amplitude is, IMO, being able to preserve the ground point of the tungsten by using the correct settings. When it comes to aluminum and arc control, the ground point starts to become real important, especially inside corners. It also affects the etching zone/frost-line but that can sometimes come at the expense of not enough cleaning if one is not careful with the settings.

[cj737]

The main advantage of the independent amplitude is, IMO, being able to preserve the ground point of the tungsten by using the correct settings. When it comes to aluminum and arc control, the ground point starts to become real important, especially inside corners. It also affects the etching zone/frost-line but that can sometimes come at the expense of not enough cleaning if one is not careful with the settings.

What most experimentation has yielded with respect to independent amplitude is the ability to control heat input in aluminum, of any thickness. Thin aluminum is NOT the only application for it. In fact, very thick aluminum benefits from the EN side during a prolonged cycle and waveform change while cleaning can be tailored to a shorter cycle since the cleaning action will be easier once the weld is underway. Advanced Square Wave can really help on thick, Triangular works really well on thin (longer EP, short EN).

@Dad - I wouldn't interpret Tool's commentary harshly. Forum posts are Tone Deaf. And I think he mixed up you an the OP to this thread.

[TraditionalToolworks]

@Dad - I wouldn't interpret Tool's commentary harshly. Forum posts are Tone Deaf. And I think he mixed up you an the OP to this thread.

I didn't mean it to be harsh, nor did I mixup the OP.

I just found it odd that Todd has an opinion towards the HTP when he hasn't welded any aluminum at all on his Dynasty. If that is harsh, I apologize. Sometimes the truth is harsh, I didn't mean it to be.

I don't care what all the technical documents say and what any of the reps say, talk to people that use these welders day in and day out to get their work done and there are few that would feel the HTP has a leg up on thin aluminum over the Dynasty.

Two people have expressed concern I'm disappointed with my dynasty based on my posts. I'm not. I don't think about equipment that way. I bought a John Deere tractor when I would have preferred the equivalent Kubota model. I found my tractor with 9 hours on it for a $9K discount from what the dealers wanted for a new Kubota. It was $11K less than the JD from the 2 local dealers. For me, the Kubota would have been the better machine if I'd bought new.

Not for nothing, but one thing you've shown is that you're very cost driven in your purchases. This seems to have been your primary factor in purchasing the Dynasty, that you got what felt like a great deal to you. But you don't feel the software card option upgrade is a very good deal, and chances are very slim you would ever buy it.

You have a great welder, I say use it and weld stuff up and be happy. Quit worrying about what it can or can't do, those features will confuse you and won't prevent you from becoming a great welder.

I think I've said too much in this thread, I'll just let it be. Probably best for me to use my Primeweld more and be thankful I have what I have, many people are stuck with some $300 Harbor Freight tig welder that doesn't work for crap. I might not have a Miller, but I certainly don't have one of those...

[JustTheDad]

Not for nothing, but one thing you've shown is that you're very cost driven in your purchases. This seems to have been your primary factor in purchasing the Dynasty, that you got what felt like a great deal to you. But you don't feel the software card option upgrade is a very good deal, and chances are very slim you would ever buy it.

I don't feel the upgrade is a good deal for me, but basically true. My dad was self employed and every time we took a family vacation, he included what he'd would have made if he worked in the calculated cost. It didn't stop him from taking vacations and spending money on things he needed or truly wanted, but he was careful and conservative and invested his money. His buying advice to me always reflected that. So yeah, I grew up understanding the concept of opportunity cost, and B school confirmed my way of thinking for me, so my buying advice is similar.

PKele said he'd narrowed his choices down to 2 welders, and you brought up one that's more than a thousand dollars more. You did it without asking him anything about how much he's going to use it, if it's mission critical for his profession, or what his budget is. I know you didn't tell him to buy it and asked it as "why not", but you seem to feel that if someone can afford something potentially better, that's what they should get. You are very honest about that, but it's very different from how I'd give anyone advice on spending their money. I think they should consider their opportunity costs.

How about this, I'll stop posting on this thread, and if PKele buys the HTP, I'll buy $1500 of edit or crispr stock the day he posts a picture of it. Then we'll follow up in 10 years to see if he liked the machine, if it ever broke, if he hated it and wound up with a miller dynasty. Also, if my stock isn't worth more than 2 new miller dynasty 210 or 220s or whatever the equivalent to the 210dx is then, in August of 2030, I'll buy you and PKele dinner at a Ruth's Chris Steak House. If it is worth more than 2 new Dynasty's, you buy me and PKele lunch at McDonalds. (And yes, I mean more than the Dynasty's with the cooler and cart like mine.)
Fair?