[JayWal]

Hey y’all!

I’ve got a pretty big project coming up, consists of welding 5 inch c channel to a 3/8 mounting plate, 12” x 12”, which will be bolted to concrete wall. 250 pieces. Plus, another 250 pieces on the other end, but that one is a T joint, 1/2” base plate, 12x22, with a 3/8, 7 inch tall plate welded perpendicular. So a lot of pretty heavy stuff.

My question is, would you guys recommend using dual shield flux core or solid wire? I’m no professional welder by any standards just a lot of practice making stuff on the farm. I’ve never ever used anything except 0.35 solid wire. But flux core is apparently faster and penetrates better? Since it it structural stuff, and a lot of it that sounds like what I want. And that’s only half the project there’s also some angle to c channel welding etc

I could attach some drawings to clarify later, I don’t have them on my phone.

Thanks for any advice

Julian

[cj737]

I’d make the decision by the environment in which you’ll be welding. Solid wire and Dual Shield both are sensitive to wind blowing the gas away, in which case I’d use Flux Core. If you’re welding indoors, clean and prep the material and use Solid Wire since you’re familiar with it.

All three demand proper settings and technique to get it right.

[JayWal]

I have a decent size shop with ventilation. So no wind. All the parts will be welded inside, drilled and then sent for galvanizing

[JayWal]

In a way, the reason I’m not familiar with dual shield is why I want to to learn something new. But the biggest reason I want to is because of the speed. As soon as the snow melts up here in Manitoba farming starts and then I have very little time to anything else. And there’s about 900-1000 feet of weld in the whole project. Anyone have a rough guess how much time dual shield would save? Or isn’t it that much faster?

[tungstendipper]

Here's a good starting point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTPFQzalNt4

[cj737]

In a way, the reason I’m not familiar with dual shield is why I want to to learn something new. But the biggest reason I want to is because of the speed. As soon as the snow melts up here in Manitoba farming starts and then I have very little time to anything else. And there’s about 900-1000 feet of weld in the whole project. Anyone have a rough guess how much time dual shield would save? Or isn’t it that much faster?

All depends upon your machine, and the diameter of the wire you run. Dual Shield can be run on less clean material than solid wire, but has a better finished appearance than flux core. My buddy runs 0.045 dual shield and that’s faster than a 5/32 Stick rod. Another, runs 0.080 wire and that’s like welding with a pencil lead in terms of deposition. I run 0.035 often, and it is not any “faster” than hard wire, save the prep time.

[LtBadd]

Sounds like a nice production job, hope you charge accordingly.

Definitly watch the video tungstendipper linked to.

What machine do you have to run this?

JD Brewer, Jody's buddy does a lot of structural work and loves using dual shield
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpbFBDTuK04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecQr_yUBnM8 this is part 1, check out part 2 as well

If you go DS be sure and buy a good quality wire, you may also want to setup some test pieces and cut and etch them to be sure your getting good penetration

[JayWal]

Sounds like a nice production job, hope you charge accordingly.

Definitly watch the video tungstendipper linked to.

What machine do you have to run this?

JD Brewer, Jody's buddy does a lot of structural work and loves using dual shield
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpbFBDTuK04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecQr_yUBnM8 this is part 1, check out part 2 as well

If you go DS be sure and buy a good quality wire, you may also want to setup some test pieces and cut and etch them to be sure your getting good penetration

Not charging a dime Its for a potato storage shed on the farm so im saving money. but, saving money, making money, same thing i guess

I do watch pretty much all of Jody and JDs vids, its how i got the idea to try dual shield for this. Im assuming i could use a fairly big wire since its on 3/8 plate minimum. Id use my Lincoln PowerMig 300. Ive yet to overheat that machine, so im assuming it'll have no problem running it...

Id use Lincoln wire. Id dont look at cost when buying filler metal. I dont want to risk cheaper stuff.

[JayWal]

so its basically a stud wall inside the shed, since potatoes cannot be stored against an outside wall, due to condensation, cold etc. there's an airway between the outside wall and the inside wall that feeds air into the the ducts that run under the floor, pushing air up through the potatoes.

basically, a 8 inch c channel stud wall, 5 inch c channel horizontal piece, and 5 feet of 2 inch angle, overlapped 12 inches onto the stud, running up to the top. 3/4 inch bolts at the bottom, and 2 more joining the 2 channels.

i did try to cover my butt a bit, and make it easier, im getting all the plates laser cut, and the top plate which gets bolted to the outside wall, i had them cut out the profile of the 5 inch c channel that runs horizontal, so the weld will not carry the brunt of the weight, the channel will be inset in the plate.
and the bottom T plate i had a tongue added to the upright, and a grove cut into the baseplate. so no marking and squaring, simply put together and weld.

Also the bottom plate will be wet set into a 2 foot high concrete pony wall, so each plate will need 4 3/4 inch studs on the bottom. which comes to 920 studs. Im renting a stud welder for that, kinda excited about that

[tungstendipper]

How big of a welder do you have?

[cj737]

Good god, Man! You must be storing all the potatoes in Idaho! That’s some pretty stout structure for potatoes. I’d think 0.035 wire would be just fine, and your machine will certainly run the heat necessary. I still think I’d stick with straight flux core as the dual shield isn’t really necessary. But, if you want the experience, it’s a great project to do it with.

Lots of pictures as you go please!

[JayWal]

How big of a welder do you have?

Lincoln PowerMig 300

[JayWal]

Good god, Man! You must be storing all the potatoes in Idaho! That’s some pretty stout structure for potatoes. I’d think 0.035 wire would be just fine, and your machine will certainly run the heat necessary. I still think I’d stick with straight flux core as the dual shield isn’t really necessary. But, if you want the experience, it’s a great project to do it with.

Lots of pictures as you go please!

Manitoba potato industry is a joke compared to Idaho! But it is growing.

The engineer at first spec’d 8 inch c channel from top to bottom and the horizontal piece. 5,430 linear feet :/:/ talk about overkill.

I plan to have lots of pics it’s a lot of work I know but I’m looking forward to it

[Franz©]

Have you ever been up close & personal with a stud gun?

My Nelson book shows a maximum of 5/8 although someone may sell 3/4.

Have you run a cost comparison between stud welding -v- piercing the bedplates and welding in rebar pieces?

[PeteM]

The dual shield absolutely rocks for putting it down hot and fast, and you have a machine capable using it to the extent that it offers you the advantages fcaw was designed for.

I wouldn't say you can't go wrong with it, but it would be difficult.

[JayWal]

Have you ever been up close & personal with a stud gun?

My Nelson book shows a maximum of 5/8 although someone may sell 3/4.

Have you run a cost comparison between stud welding -v- piercing the bedplates and welding in rebar pieces?

No, never. OrIginal plan was to get holes cut in the plate, run a rebar piece through it, sticking out just enough to weld around it on both sides of the plate. But the foreman ran across a Nelson stud welder vid on YouTube and started phone around, found they’re relatively cheap to rent (couple hundred bucks) and it’s a lot faster. The studs are $2 apiece for a 3/4 by 6 inch. And with over 900, I can do it in a day with the stud welder I’d assume.

Do you have experience stud welding?

[JayWal]

Just off of google, those are some inane amps!

[Franz©]

Have you ever been up close & personal with a stud gun?

My Nelson book shows a maximum of 5/8 although someone may sell 3/4.

Have you run a cost comparison between stud welding -v- piercing the bedplates and welding in rebar pieces?

No, never. OrIginal plan was to get holes cut in the plate, run a rebar piece through it, sticking out just enough to weld around it on both sides of the plate. But the foreman ran across a Nelson stud welder vid on YouTube and started phone around, found they’re relatively cheap to rent (couple hundred bucks) and it’s a lot faster. The studs are $2 apiece for a 3/4 by 6 inch. And with over 900, I can do it in a day with the stud welder I’d assume.

Do you have experience stud welding?

I spent a bit of time with Mr Nelson and his lovely ceramic sleeves & studs. I alo spent considerable time on rewelds because Nelson studs don't always hold, and some times they just flop over. When they work they're great. When they don't they're a complete PITA. The ones that don't stick when the gun is gone can't be refired by the gun and have to be stick or MIG welded after grinding.

$250 will get you a Nelson gun and power unit for 2 or 3 days from the rental places and you can figure on about 2-3 minutes a stud with the arc type which you'll need to use. CD studs don't come in 3/4 diameter. Fact isI'm not real sure Nelson makes bigger than 5/8 x 4. That size, I'd figure getting 20 an hour would be good production, and the gun will get damn hot.

Honestly, a pierced rebar would have more hold, and you'd only need to weld 1 side if you pierced with a Whitney Punch or an ironworker if tyou have 1 with the capacity.

From what I see on your print, a 6" piece of weldable grade rebar welded to the bottom of the plate without piercing would give you the same strength a Nelson concrete anchor will. Seems like it would be a lot cheaper too.

Regarding the amps, wait till you hear that sumbeach fire off. I strongly suggest good ear protection. Also hope you have real good power to the machine, unless you're renting a generator machine. You'll probably be standing on the bench running it so form up some foot protection from aluminum flashing and a couple boards to stand on.

[Poland308]

I recently welded on about 150 3/8 studs with 7018, because of the same unpredictable results with a stud gun.

[Bill Beauregard]

I melted my M25 Weldcraft gun that came with my Millermatic 252. I now use a 400 amp Bernard gun for Dual Shield. Yes it is fast. I'm not convinced it is faster than MIG, but I feel fusion is better assured. It is prone to worm holes. I believe gas coverage issues, or linger stick out makes coverage more fussy.

For work where appearance is important, and strength less so, I might stick with MIG.

[JayWal]

Thanks for the info Franz

Only 20 an hour??:/ well I guess I should’ve know with over 1000 amps the gun would melt if you go non stop. I just assumed it’s somply loading a stud, point and shoot. When engineer didn’t look convinced about the rebar welded on for some reason. The foreman mentioned Nelson studs and te engineer agreed right away said he’d prefer those.
I thought the were fairly reliable but if you guy say they don’t always hold, that ain’t good :/
I do have plenty power, and a big generator available if my shop power isn’t good enough which I highly doubt. Tho I have heard those guns will dim your shop lights when they go off.

[Franz©]

My personal opinion, only held by me and not the salesman for Nelson, is the biggest part of the problem is the contact area between the stud and gun as well as the cable connections. The amps traveling to that stud will eat contact areas if anything is deficient. The multiple short duration power on also loosens connections.

I fully believe some arcing and oxydation occurrs every time the thing is fired, and cleaning is necessary. There is also the matter of the contacts heating up and increasing resistance in the gun and cable from power supply to gun.
I base this largely on rejects happening more often as the day goes on.

Back in the 60s when I first met Mr Nelson attaching 3/8 studs to a gasket escutcheon strip the gun was connected to an 800 amp Lincoln rotary via a huge relay. That Lincoln grunted every time the trigger was pulled, and sounded about as happy as it did arc gouging. Fortunately the owner of that shop had as much faith in engineers as the weldors and machinists had so formen had direct access to the owner. The rewelds on Nelson studs definitely got the attention of the man who signed the checks, and he and the engineer walked out to the shop floor together. Engineer got some remedial engineering schooling that day when he learned to run that gun himself. Kinda cooked his shoes too.

You well may dim some lighting, and I hope the engineer and estimator calculated in what that job will do for Demand charges from the power (hydro) company. If your generator is set up to run peak shedding this job is a good place to use the generator.

[JayWal]

Huh. Well I I can definitely set up the generator. I have a Miller bobcat on the service truck but I’m guessing that wouldn’t do it. We also have a big diesel generator used for running the 600 volt 3 phase conveyors and dirt eliminators during potato harvest. I don’t know the power rating of it, it’s run by a Cummins diesel it’ll run multiple conveyors and hydraulic pumps, 600 volts, power cables as thick as your wrist and plugs with pins as thick as your thumb. I’m not worried about the electric power requirements at all. But man if the gun gives me too much grief I wont hesitate to chuck it, demand my rental fee back and weld the suckers on. Tho I am hoping it’s improved since the 60s

Thanks for the heads up! ‘preciate it!

[Franz©]

You got pictures of them tater harvesting & cleanup toys? Post em up. We have major onion growing about 50 miles SW of me, black muck ground that can and will swallow a road trailer, but everything there leaves in bulk boxes to be seen next in grocery stores. Never got to see much tater or onion processing.

Nelson has taken over building their own power supply and claims it's better because it's of course DIGITAL metered and contains PC firestarters, and all kinds of dials. In my world that translates to We'll RENT it and let you own the problems. It don't run, we don't pay. We also don't pay if somebody has to spend half the day on the phone listening to "try adjusting".

[JayWal]

There’s drone footage of the actually harvesters on my channel on YouTube. Julian Waldner. The machines I could probably dig some up, got some in the shop now, changing bearings and such. But potatoes are all bulk. From the diggers to the truck, to a giant pile in the shed. Then by the truckload to McCains to be made into Macdonald’s fries. No bagging or such. Not sure if I’ll get kicked for posting farming on a welding site