I am a welding student who is starting to look at career options prior to graduation. Of all the industries out there, I think I would most enjoy structural or pipe welding. Therefore, the local ironworker and pipefitter unions would be logical organizations to consider. I am still a bit unfamiliar with union work, so I came up with some questions to learn about the advantages and disadvantages and how they compare to non-union work. Any guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Will unions hire based on the potential they see in recent graduates? Or are unions requiring both potential and a proven track record in the industry?
If I end up going with non-union work, I would like to find a company that looks at their hires as an investment, and therefore, provides apprentice-like training. What are some companies in the pipe and structural industries with this type of reputation?
What duration do the average pipefitting or ironwork assignments generally run for?
I hear that there can be downtime between assignments. On average, how long does it take even the most reliable and skilled welders to be reassigned?
Can union member in between jobs accept non-union work and still maintain their membership?
- RocketSurgeon
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Lots of GREAT questions.
As a former member of two different craft halls (Electrician IBEW 130 and Aerospace UAW 1921), I'd say that it all depends on you, the hall and local companies. What do you bring to the table? What are the requirements of becoming a hall member (sponsorship, mandatory apprenticeship, skill tests, etc.)? Is the company a closed, open or Right to Work shop?
There could be a labor contract between the hall and the company. Sometimes the company does the hiring and the hall is responsible for training and/or certifications of labor. The hall could be a labor contractor on it's own.
A hall's apprenticeship will (should) teach you the skill as well as any and all codes that apply in the chapter's area. Depending on the local's charter, your dues could go toward supplemental pay between jobs or they could send you on smaller jobs between the big ones. It all depends on how well organized they are.
I hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Also, welcome to the forum.
Take a minute to introduce yourself in the Introduction thread.
As a former member of two different craft halls (Electrician IBEW 130 and Aerospace UAW 1921), I'd say that it all depends on you, the hall and local companies. What do you bring to the table? What are the requirements of becoming a hall member (sponsorship, mandatory apprenticeship, skill tests, etc.)? Is the company a closed, open or Right to Work shop?
There could be a labor contract between the hall and the company. Sometimes the company does the hiring and the hall is responsible for training and/or certifications of labor. The hall could be a labor contractor on it's own.
A hall's apprenticeship will (should) teach you the skill as well as any and all codes that apply in the chapter's area. Depending on the local's charter, your dues could go toward supplemental pay between jobs or they could send you on smaller jobs between the big ones. It all depends on how well organized they are.
I hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Also, welcome to the forum.
Take a minute to introduce yourself in the Introduction thread.
Chris
NASA is not the enemy of the American taxpayer.
AWS D1.1, D17.1
NASA is not the enemy of the American taxpayer.
AWS D1.1, D17.1
Thanks for the insight Chris! It is good to know the inner workings of unions and how one union's structure can vary from the next. I plan to contact some Portland, OR area union members and forward them a few of the questions you posted. In the meantime, if anyone reading these posts has any familiarity with Portland's Ironworkers Local 29 or Steamfitters Local 290 and can answer the following questions or share general advice, it would be great to hear from you.
What weight do these unions place on sponsorship, skill tests, industry experience, and trade school when assessing candidates?
Will these Unions essentially operate as a labor contractor or allow companies to hire directly and instead provide the training?
Are there many current apprenticeship opportunities and how can I improve my odds of being selected?
Thanks!
What weight do these unions place on sponsorship, skill tests, industry experience, and trade school when assessing candidates?
Will these Unions essentially operate as a labor contractor or allow companies to hire directly and instead provide the training?
Are there many current apprenticeship opportunities and how can I improve my odds of being selected?
Thanks!
Boomer63
- Boomer63
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Lots of questions! I have a load of experience on both sides of the union/nonunion fence. I also have a love/hate relationship with the union! Let me answer you as best I can, and take one question at a time:
Will unions hire based on the potential they see in recent graduates? Or are unions requiring both potential and a proven track record in the industry? To get into a union you have to go through a hiring process and take some tests. Test scores and some other factors, like Military background with a related MOS will be the factors that union will look at. Back years ago, they did do face to face interviews, I don’t know if they still do. But during that time, they will ask why you want to join union X. Wrong answers are ‘the money’, or ‘I don’t have anything else to do’. Correct answers sound like: “I want to be a part of a union, and I have heard good things about this union” or “I like the idea of being in a union and want to be in a strong union with a great reputation”.
If I end up going with non-union work, I would like to find a company that looks at their hires as an investment, and therefore, provides apprentice-like training. Good luck finding one of those.
What are some companies in the pipe and structural industries with this type of reputation? Can’t help you there! My guess would be that most companies are not willing to train you, bring you along through some kind of ‘apprenticeship’ program, and have you quit once you learn the craft; which is what happens most of the time, anyway.
What duration do the average pipefitting or ironwork assignments generally run for? This is a tricky question. The company that you worked for may pick you up and you become a ‘company man’, which can guarantee you a lot of work, but you will go where the company needs to you go, not necessarily where you want to go. In my ironworker local, about 40% of our membership worked their entire career with one company, about 40% made one or two job changes in a career, and about 20% were absolute whores; like me. I have been on jobs that lasted on day. I know of jobs that are still going after ten years. There are NO guarantees in the construction trades.
I hear that there can be downtime between assignments. On average, how long does it take even the most reliable and skilled welders to be reassigned? True, and this is why it pays to make connections in all phases and aspects of the industry. Leave on good terms with everyone and never, never ‘burn a bridge’. In good times, the hall can turn you around in a day; in bad times you may sit for years. Good hands generally are adept at finding their own work. In fact, for years I never went through the hall for work, I just found it on my own.
Can union member in between jobs accept non-union work and still maintain their membership? Sure. Get caught working in your craft for nonunion and you won’t have to worry about being in a union anymore; they can and will pull your book. “My family is starving” is no excuse and will do you no good. To a union, nonunion is the enemy. Nonunion lowers wages and takes work away from union members. Now, layoffs happen. Save your money and be ready for them. Get a job as a truck driver; no one will care about that. Be ready to travel, because sooner or later in your career, it is very likely you will have to in order to find work. On the other hand, when the money comes in, it pours in! Figure out your lifestyle budget on your 40-hour per week, 45-week per year income, and live 20% BELOW that number and you will likely never get into trouble. Note how I say a 45-week work year, rather than a 50-week work year? Weather will kill the jobs, and you can’t predict the weather. Generally (of course there are exceptions) we worked about 45 weeks per year. Unions have great benefits, but do not pay vacations. You have to figure that out on your own.
I love field work and wouldn’t do anything else; other than what I do now. Hot, cold, wet, windy, nasty, humid. Foul-smelling little plastic houses over flowing with shit. Surly, crud co-workers. Horrid conditions. But when everything goes right … there is nothing like it!
Gary
Will unions hire based on the potential they see in recent graduates? Or are unions requiring both potential and a proven track record in the industry? To get into a union you have to go through a hiring process and take some tests. Test scores and some other factors, like Military background with a related MOS will be the factors that union will look at. Back years ago, they did do face to face interviews, I don’t know if they still do. But during that time, they will ask why you want to join union X. Wrong answers are ‘the money’, or ‘I don’t have anything else to do’. Correct answers sound like: “I want to be a part of a union, and I have heard good things about this union” or “I like the idea of being in a union and want to be in a strong union with a great reputation”.
If I end up going with non-union work, I would like to find a company that looks at their hires as an investment, and therefore, provides apprentice-like training. Good luck finding one of those.
What are some companies in the pipe and structural industries with this type of reputation? Can’t help you there! My guess would be that most companies are not willing to train you, bring you along through some kind of ‘apprenticeship’ program, and have you quit once you learn the craft; which is what happens most of the time, anyway.
What duration do the average pipefitting or ironwork assignments generally run for? This is a tricky question. The company that you worked for may pick you up and you become a ‘company man’, which can guarantee you a lot of work, but you will go where the company needs to you go, not necessarily where you want to go. In my ironworker local, about 40% of our membership worked their entire career with one company, about 40% made one or two job changes in a career, and about 20% were absolute whores; like me. I have been on jobs that lasted on day. I know of jobs that are still going after ten years. There are NO guarantees in the construction trades.
I hear that there can be downtime between assignments. On average, how long does it take even the most reliable and skilled welders to be reassigned? True, and this is why it pays to make connections in all phases and aspects of the industry. Leave on good terms with everyone and never, never ‘burn a bridge’. In good times, the hall can turn you around in a day; in bad times you may sit for years. Good hands generally are adept at finding their own work. In fact, for years I never went through the hall for work, I just found it on my own.
Can union member in between jobs accept non-union work and still maintain their membership? Sure. Get caught working in your craft for nonunion and you won’t have to worry about being in a union anymore; they can and will pull your book. “My family is starving” is no excuse and will do you no good. To a union, nonunion is the enemy. Nonunion lowers wages and takes work away from union members. Now, layoffs happen. Save your money and be ready for them. Get a job as a truck driver; no one will care about that. Be ready to travel, because sooner or later in your career, it is very likely you will have to in order to find work. On the other hand, when the money comes in, it pours in! Figure out your lifestyle budget on your 40-hour per week, 45-week per year income, and live 20% BELOW that number and you will likely never get into trouble. Note how I say a 45-week work year, rather than a 50-week work year? Weather will kill the jobs, and you can’t predict the weather. Generally (of course there are exceptions) we worked about 45 weeks per year. Unions have great benefits, but do not pay vacations. You have to figure that out on your own.
I love field work and wouldn’t do anything else; other than what I do now. Hot, cold, wet, windy, nasty, humid. Foul-smelling little plastic houses over flowing with shit. Surly, crud co-workers. Horrid conditions. But when everything goes right … there is nothing like it!
Gary
Gary-
Thanks for sharing your experiences and pointing out the pluses and minuses of union and non-union work! It sounds like union membership is competitive, but very much worth ones while (especially for recent graduates looking for specialized training as well as opportunities to advance ones career).
If I am fortunate enough to land a union job, I will be sure to keep in mind those tips about how to minimize downtime between assignments and how to prepare financially should downtime arise.
Thanks for sharing your experiences and pointing out the pluses and minuses of union and non-union work! It sounds like union membership is competitive, but very much worth ones while (especially for recent graduates looking for specialized training as well as opportunities to advance ones career).
If I am fortunate enough to land a union job, I will be sure to keep in mind those tips about how to minimize downtime between assignments and how to prepare financially should downtime arise.
I work out of a local that keeps us as busy as it can. (I haven't had a vacation in 3 years). The biggest plus is the apreticeship time. You get paid to work and learn. After you turn out you get your con Ed for your license for free. ( minus dues ). All you have to do is show up and be ready to work an honest 8 for 8.
My 14 year old laughed at me tonight cause I was still wearing my beaney. I asked him if he wanted to compare checks.... No more laughter.
My 14 year old laughed at me tonight cause I was still wearing my beaney. I asked him if he wanted to compare checks.... No more laughter.
I have more questions than answers
Josh
Josh
Wow, 3 years of non-stop work is a good streak! What are the determining factors of such a run? work-ethic and skills?, type of industry?, local market demand?, proper union management to minimize an oversupply of union workers?
Your apprenticeship comment reminded me of a question I have been curious about:
I recently learned of an alternative to the apprenticeship route for entry-level welders. I hear that some entry-level welders are hired by companies that just so happen to hire union workers. Therefore, taking a job from one of these companies results in union membership. If i understand things correctly, the job would be entry-level, but not tied to an apprenticeship. If a recent graduate in this scenario was to spend a considerable amount of free time at the union's training center, could they advance just as quickly as an apprentice? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of each route?
Thanks!
Your apprenticeship comment reminded me of a question I have been curious about:
I recently learned of an alternative to the apprenticeship route for entry-level welders. I hear that some entry-level welders are hired by companies that just so happen to hire union workers. Therefore, taking a job from one of these companies results in union membership. If i understand things correctly, the job would be entry-level, but not tied to an apprenticeship. If a recent graduate in this scenario was to spend a considerable amount of free time at the union's training center, could they advance just as quickly as an apprentice? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of each route?
Thanks!
I work as a refrigeration fitter. There is a lot of major industry in the area. Think ADM 2 plants. Cargail 3 Plants in town. General Mills. Quaker Oats. DuPont. Rockwell Collins world headquarters. International paper x2. 1 nuke and a coal fired power house. All within 30 min drive. We're spoiled here.
I have more questions than answers
Josh
Josh
There are some other routs into a local other than the apprenticeship. But no mater how much class time you have paid for up till now you can learn a lot more taking what you already know and adding to it with the training. Our local uses a day school you do like 6 weeks a year broken according to your class schedule. You go to class 40 hrs for a week and draw unemployment for class week.
I have more questions than answers
Josh
Josh
Boomer63
- Boomer63
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The only reason an ironworker or pipefitter was out of work in Chicago in the 1990's for more than a few weeks was because they wanted to be.
I remember sometime in the late 1990's, handing my boss a paper with some dates on it; it listed a two week period I was going to be on vacation. He looked it over, shook his head and told me, "Sorry, but I ain't seein' it". I replied, "That is just to let you know. I ain't asking permission!"
I used to like to draw a lay off in the winter, but then would get bored, or a friend would call with a job and I would go back to it. I liked short-term, big overtime jobs; shut downs at mills or power plants - jobs like 90-days of seven-twelves; things like that. Layoff is payoff, so I would throw my fishing gear into the back of one of the big 'O' Cadillac's that I owned and head up north to fish, drink and pester the local women for a few weeks. Then head back out and do it all again!
I remember sometime in the late 1990's, handing my boss a paper with some dates on it; it listed a two week period I was going to be on vacation. He looked it over, shook his head and told me, "Sorry, but I ain't seein' it". I replied, "That is just to let you know. I ain't asking permission!"
I used to like to draw a lay off in the winter, but then would get bored, or a friend would call with a job and I would go back to it. I liked short-term, big overtime jobs; shut downs at mills or power plants - jobs like 90-days of seven-twelves; things like that. Layoff is payoff, so I would throw my fishing gear into the back of one of the big 'O' Cadillac's that I owned and head up north to fish, drink and pester the local women for a few weeks. Then head back out and do it all again!
I currently drive a service truck so I'm averaging 45 hours a week. But if I get closer to retirement I'm gona pull your trick Boomer and fish for a week or two at a time. That sound good.
I have more questions than answers
Josh
Josh
Boomer63
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Poland308 wrote:I currently drive a service truck so I'm averaging 45 hours a week. But if I get closer to retirement I'm gona pull your trick Boomer and fish for a week or two at a time. That sound good.
Hell yeah! Head up to Minnesota or Wisconsin! Get it done, or it won't get done without you!
Man ... when I think back to those days when I was so stupid with money; ouch! But I had so much coming in and out! Once upon a time, I was going to get a newer pick up with a full sized bed and a cap. I was going to put an airmattress in the back for sleeping. Then my plan was to travel route 2 all the way from the UP side of the Mackinac Bridge to the Pacific Ocean. Sleep in the truck, get a hotel every three or four days. Take about six weeks ... but I got married instead. Divorced in 2009. Oh well ... stupid is as stupid does!
Gary