[TraditionalToolworks]

This is a work in progress, some of the details are not completely worked out yet.

cj offered some comments in the other Primeweld thread, but I thought it would be better to move it here as this is really a project.

The plans, not entirely complete but a work in progress. I haven't yet decided how the argon tank will be connected, I have a few different idea, but will either use angle to wedge it in and strap it, or add a support from the top frame. I'll see after I get it put together if it has enough to hold the tank at the top frame.


Wheel parts, there's some washers, an axle bolt with a bronze impregnated dry bushing. This bolts into the flange nut.


Flange nut, this is how I welded it on using Washington Alloy Tensileweld, a 312 variant I'm told.


Rear wheels mounted on the bottom frame.


Assembling frame, got the posts cut on my new Evo saw, fits pretty good but frames are not 100% flat, I think I can make it fit pretty good.


To be continued...

[v5cvbb]

Nice Alan. What's the deal with magnetic clamp? in the bottom pic? I haven't seen those before. If I ever get a concrete floor I'll build something similar. Moving a welder and argon bottle is no fun in my barn.

Impressive likeness of the Primeweld. You even got its good side.

From the pics, and my redneck engineering experience, those flange nuts look like a weak point. The welds aren't going anywhere, but the wall thickness isn't my level of overkill. They are thicker at the base, so I could be dead wrong. Just ask my wife, it happens.

Glad you shared your progress.

[cj737]

Looks nice there, Toolie. Your TIG welds look decent but show symptoms of running a bit hot. The welds in the third picture, for the cross brace, they have undercut on them. You’re either skimping on the filler or pouring a bit too much heat to them.

The reason I bring this up is if you’re too hot then you create weakness beyond the weld. Not that I think structurally your cart can’t support its task, but too help you avoid this when it will really matter. Like with your log roller... try to push a bit more filler in. If you want the weld bead flush, flatten it afterwards.

That welded bung is a clever trick!

[Spartan]

Looking good, Alan! I'd consider just using a somewhat thin, wide V block to mount on the top back rail for the argon bottle to rest into. Then a couple small tabs on each side of it to mount a chain. Easiest way I've found for securing bottles. Can probably just cut a wide V into one side of a piece of angle iron and then weld it onto the rail flush. Just my thoughts on it.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Nice Alan. What's the deal with magnetic clamp? in the bottom pic? I haven't seen those before.

They're made by Rigid, I bought them on closeout from a place on sale a couple years ago. There's a magnet on each end that rotates and has thumb locks on each side.

Your TIG welds look decent but show symptoms of running a bit hot. The welds in the third picture, for the cross brace, they have undercut on them. You’re either skimping on the filler or pouring a bit too much heat to them.

I believe skimping on filler, but not certain, many of the other miters I used 3/32" as the gap was wider. I've pondered if I should either grind those out and re-weld them or just weld more filler on top. Here's my dilemma which I would appreciate some advice. It's so easy for all of us to just say, heck with it, I'll just go buy a welding cart. I know I could have done that and been done with it easy...the problem is that we never get better at fabricating if we do that. I'm always reluctant to post my welds because I'm not a seasoned welder and I think we all open ourselves to criticism. Case in point is my 6010 beads I ran, I suspect my whip-n-pause was too short, so the ripples looked closer together and some of the armchair welders immediately jumped on them. Kind of similar with TIG, I'm far from being competent and if there's one thing I've learned is that when you weld out of position it changes things a LOT, quite a bit different than padding beads in the horizontal position. In that regard working on a project like this is good as it forces me out of position to learn more.

Another point I want to make is that these frames are built hella overkill, IMO, the 1x2 tube is .093" thick and the 1-1/2x2 tubes used on the rear posts is .063". The cross member is really just there to support one side of the argon tank. I don't think it needed to be there structural wise, there's plenty of strength with just the mitered corners welded.

try to push a bit more filler in. If you want the weld bead flush, flatten it afterwards.

What would be your recommendation to add more. On many of the other welds were I had more filler, I ground them flat so if they were not perfect it didn't matter, it flushed out...but with the cross member I couldn't grind it as there wasn't enough filler to begin with. What is the proper way to fix that? Would you grind with a cutoff wheel inside the undercut area and then re-weld, or could I just clean with acetone and lay another bead on top? Although I don't believe there to be a structural problem as-is, I would like to fix it and learn as I go.

From the pics, and my redneck engineering experience, those flange nuts look like a weak point.

Those are stainless. I ordered stainless for more strength as well as ability to weld more safely than zinc. I also pondered them being strong enough, but they are only going to be taking 200 lbs. max. on both of them, so 100 lbs. per nut. I can stand on it, so they have to at least be able to handle the bottle. I suspect the week point will be the front casters, they only support about 125 lbs. each, but the welder only weighs 48 lbs. and that will be distributed over the rear wheels slightly also.

Looking good, Alan! I'd consider just using a somewhat thin, wide V block to mount on the top back rail for the argon bottle to rest into. Then a couple small tabs on each side of it to mount a chain. Easiest way I've found for securing bottles. Can probably just cut a wide V into one side of a piece of angle iron and then weld it onto the rail flush. Just my thoughts on it.

Yes, kind of what I have been considering, but don't have a large V, so was thinking to put a small pieces of angle on each side so that I could wedge the bottle in and hold it in place with a strap or chain as you point out. I have some chunks for UHMV I might be able to use, which would insulate the tank from the cart/welder/electricity. Or I could just cut pieces of UHMV and cover the wedges to insulate it. I won't be welding on the cart, but I've seen people raise that concern with the bottle when attached to a table.

Thanks for your comments guys, trying to learn as I go...

[cj737]

For that cross brace weld, the radius of the tube is your challenge. The square cut intersecting makes a wider gap in that condition. Light up on the radius side, add filler on that side, and weave across, add filler both sides, weave back. OR, upsize your filler and then problem is solved.

For flushing it, just a decent flap disk is all you need. Takes a bit more work, but reduces the sparks and over-cutting.

I’m always in favor of making fixtures and gear for fabrication. It’s good practice, sometimes cheaper, and experience building.

[TraditionalToolworks]

For that cross brace weld, the radius of the tube is your challenge.

Ahhhhh.... <sound of palm slapping forehead> I didn't think about that, but I didn't bevel it much knowing that there was the radius on each side from the tube it was butting up against.

Thanks for pointing that out!

For flushing it, just a decent flap disk is all you need. Takes a bit more work, but reduces the sparks and over-cutting.

I'm gonna get more filler in there today.

[cwby]

For the bottle rack, put a cradle in the back & on one side, then cut off an old C Clamp & use the screw & swivel on the other side to clamp bottle to side cradle.

[DavidR8]

Looking good Alan. I had grand intentions of starting my cart this weekend... but instead I was distracted by a workbench with 13 drawers that needed emptying, rebuilding and new handles. Maybe this week...

[TraditionalToolworks]

For the bottle rack, put a cradle in the back & on one side, then cut off an old C Clamp & use the screw & swivel on the other side to clamp bottle to side cradle.

That's not a bad idea, I might have some clamps laying around. I'll need to think about that, I know straps are not idea, but seems pretty clean for this purpose. Chain could also be a solution I 'spose...

Looking good Alan. I had grand intentions of starting my cart this weekend... but instead I was distracted by a workbench with 13 drawers that needed emptying, rebuilding and new handles. Maybe this week...

I got distracted myself on Sunday as it was HOT...cooled off today so maybe I can get some welding done this evening. Was up late last night working on some stuff for work.

I will say this, these projects always take longer than expected, but I'm learning quite a bit as I go...

[BillE.Dee]

Lookin good, Alan. This project is definitely proving that a "15 minute" welding job does NOT exist. Also, I don't know IF you took into consideration--where the tank mounts on the rear tray, the top of the tank will be closer to the welding machine due to the angle . I have a cart and the tank is right tight to the top of the welding machine and about 2 inches at the bottom of the tank on the tray.

[cj737]

Lookin good, Alan. This project is definitely proving that a "15 minute" welding job does NOT exist. Also, I don't know IF you took into consideration--where the tank mounts on the rear tray, the top of the tank will be closer to the welding machine due to the angle . I have a cart and the tank is right tight to the top of the welding machine and about 2 inches at the bottom of the tank on the tray.

Funny you mention this, BillEDee - I made a cart a few years back and when I put the welders on, the damn rear facing gas connections were obstructed by the tanks. Imagine my language... I had taken so much care to TIG weld coped tubes and set everything perfectly. Forgot to calculate in the fricking QuikConnects.

Gave that cart away to a needy home.

[v5cvbb]

Funny you mention this, BillEDee - I made a cart a few years back and when I put the welders on, the damn rear facing gas connections were obstructed by the tanks. Imagine my language... I had taken so much care to TIG weld coped tubes and set everything perfectly. Forgot to calculate in the fricking QuikConnects.

Gave that cart away to a needy home.

And the power switch is on the rear on this welder, so you need access there regularly.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Lookin good, Alan. This project is definitely proving that a "15 minute" welding job does NOT exist. Also, I don't know IF you took into consideration--where the tank mounts on the rear tray, the top of the tank will be closer to the welding machine due to the angle . I have a cart and the tank is right tight to the top of the welding machine and about 2 inches at the bottom of the tank on the tray.

Yes, I even mentioned that somewhere, but that is the primary reason for moving the rear legs and top frame forward.

I kind of like the look of the top frame extending in front of the bottom, but that was an artifact of moving the unit forward since when the machine tilts, the rear of the machine angles backward and would hit the tank if it was next to the tank. Not sure if I mentioned or not, but I tested lifting the machine up 1" to see how much the top of the machine would tilt back past plumb. I think it will fit with how I have it mocked up.

[BillE.Dee]

Roger Dodger on the comments. I haven't gotten around to a "new" cart as at the present I can get one boney finger to the back of the welder to work the dang switch while the tank is right against the top of the machine.

cj, I can just imagine the 6 syllable 2 letter words. Y'all made me laugh,,,THANKS, I really needed it.

Everyone please stay safe.
gramps

[TraditionalToolworks]

For that cross brace weld, the radius of the tube is your challenge. The square cut intersecting makes a wider gap in that condition. Light up on the radius side, add filler on that side, and weave across, add filler both sides, weave back. OR, upsize your filler and then problem is solved.

Crap, I should have read this before I filled again, I didn't weave but I think it would have been a good idea.

These are filling in the undercut, but I think I may go back over them and weave from side to side to see if I can't get the weld looking nicer. On this first one you can see a small crater when I ended, also not good. I don't think this cross brace is going anywhere, it was pretty solid even without adding more filler, but for certain now. I also felt a bit low on amps, I was using 88 amps and had the pedal floored most of the time, I've heard from some folks they like to go 50% higher to give some leeway and get plenty at the start to get a puddle flowing. Any comments? It is starting to feel more comfortable.





For my next trick, I got some 1/4-20 stainless hex nuts. The casters are wider than the 1x2 but I think 3 screws/nuts will be find to hold them on. I didn't want to weld them and .093" is not thick enough to provide threads to hold the screws, IMO, so I plan to weld the nuts in place.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Bad day at the welding table...not too proud to admit it...

This is the 2nd nut I burned to a crisp...

Although the tube is .093" thick, I had the welder set to 75 amps as the nut is stainless.



I ordered some of these from McMaster-Carr, similar to what I used on the rear wheels, but these are low profile steel.

(linky pic)

[sbaker56]

Bad day at the welding table...not too proud to admit it...

This is the 2nd nut I burned to a crisp...

Although the tube is .093" thick, I had the welder set to 75 amps as the nut is stainless.



I ordered some of these from McMaster-Carr, similar to what I used on the rear wheels, but these are low profile steel.

(linky pic)

Looks like the stainless failed and it just completely ripped out of the hole? Or am I totally missing something? I think that would've been a time one of those ridiculously large Furick Moose knuckle or BBW cups would've been great to have though. That seems like inherently a nightmare to weld because of the inability to use a heat sink, maybe a bunch of essentially hot tack welds with time in between to cool would've helped?

[TraditionalToolworks]

Looks like the stainless failed and it just completely ripped out of the hole? Or am I totally missing something?

I ripped it out with a crescent wrench trying to get the bolt out. I did use anti-seize. This was the 2nd one, the first one was welded in solid and I snapped the bolt off trying to get it out and cut the nut off with a cutoff wheel. This may also mean that I need to turn the amps up to equal the .093" steel as it seems the 312 (Tensileweld) penetrated the stainless but barely the steel.

Unfortunately no gigantor knuckle cups...

I'll wait for the low pro flange nuts to arrive from McMaster-Carr before I tackle it, probably best to use steel with steel. I can focus on the posts tomorrow, unless I head out to look at a forklift near Sacramento.

[kiwi2wheels]

Flag that weld nut idea away.

Weld tubes with the ID of the bolt through the frame tubes and weld it both ends. Grind the welds flush. Then machine up hat bushings as the spacer for the wheel bearings and weld the flange to the frame tube to retain it.

Assemble with the nuts on the inside so all the load is on the bolt shank.

[Poland308]

After you weld on a SS nut you have to retap it. They shrink. Then the bolt galls the threads. If your lucky you will gat a bolt in 70% of the time with out tapping them, but getting it back out is like a 30% success rate.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Weld tubes with the ID of the bolt through the frame tubes and weld it both ends.

One thing I had thought about was to drill a hole in the tube which the nut would fit in, then hold the nut flush in the hole with a magnet, having the nut extending into the tube, then tack/welding around the nut. Is that what you're saying?

After you weld on a SS nut you have to retap it. They shrink. Then the bolt galls the threads. If your lucky you will gat a bolt in 70% of the time with out tapping them, but getting it back out is like a 30% success rate.

Now I remember you mentioning this before, but of course during the moment these things slip our mind...this is where experience plays the role...

The thing is, on the stainless flange nuts I used for the rear wheels, no issue at all, and both bolts came out cleanly, no galling whatsoever. Somehow I was attributing this to cj's recommendation to use anti-seize.

In this case with a regular stainless nut (i.e., non-flange) it didn't work out so well and more so, the anti-seize caught on fire, creating a mess out of the whole thing.

There is another way I can solve this, but since I ordered the low profile flange nuts I will wait for them, but the other way is to just weld a plate on the tube and it would then have enough thickness to drill/tap holes in the steel. In hindsight I wonder if that would have been/quicker a better solution? Even a 1/8" thick plate in addition to the .093" would have given me .218". Maybe I should do that and be done with it. Actually this might be a better solution as I can weld a larger plate and get the 4th bolt in, as it is I was limited to 3 bolts holding the caster on, no matter how I position it. Ok, my task for today.

[Poland308]

All viable options.

[TraditionalToolworks]

All viable options.

Since I had ordered these, I thought I would just wait for them. These are actually very cool, I could have even used taller ones as the extended neck will fit into the 5/16" holes I drilled, leaving a flat surface on top. When I was ordering them I didn't realize I could invert them, and I have almost 1" of depth. No worries, the low profile could come in handier at some point. They were only $5.62 for a bag of 25. Arrived in a day and a half. Gotta love McMaster-Carr.

[cj737]

After you weld on a SS nut you have to retap it. They shrink. Then the bolt galls the threads. If your lucky you will gat a bolt in 70% of the time with out tapping them, but getting it back out is like a 30% success rate.

Now I remember you mentioning this before, but of course during the moment these things slip our mind...this is where experience plays the role...

The thing is, on the stainless flange nuts I used for the rear wheels, no issue at all, and both bolts came out cleanly, no galling whatsoever. Somehow I was attributing this to cj's recommendation to use anti-seize.

In this case with a regular stainless nut (i.e., non-flange) it didn't work out so well and more so, the anti-seize caught on fire, creating a mess out of the whole thing.

Coating the bolt with anti-seize will allow the stainless bolt to back out of the nut. However, if you burned off the anti-seize, then it will have no residual effect and you're SOL. Just tack the piece with the bolt in place, then remove the bolt before final welding. OR for Pete's sake, ease off on the heat, Killer!