I say that because if I had to notch every little part that goes into one of my typical projects, I would starve slap to death. Many people don't know that you don't have to fish mouth everything. Especially with aluminum. As a matter of fact, people who normally don't weld pipe or tube, will be inclined to follow the exact line of a cope without even realizing they are welding the thinnest point. With aluminum, after you notch the tube, you should almost always sand/grind it to create an actual land. Even if you do know what you are doing, chances are you are burning the thinnest part away anyway.
On small pipe, say 1" sched 40 and under, I don't cut any at all. Just butt it and weld it. This is just for structural concerns. Certainly, fluid or other applications where friction free interiors are important, I wouldn't use this, nor would I likely be using aluminum.
The other thing people are inclined to do with aluminum is, to set it up like a steel weldment and tack everything in place and weld it all at once. That may be fine of fixture/jigged parts, but aluminum moves an awful lot, especially once you start building 2D or 3D assemblies. You can end up with a potato chip in short order. I break them down into fully welded, "tweakable", sub-assemblies. In the case of this cooler caddie, I welded the bottom ring and the top rings, put their parts in and welded those first separately. Then, I added the 4 spacer tubes to the top ring, welded those fully and then re-squared, and plumbed everything before attaching that to the bottom ring. That way, there is only the 4 trapped welds of the spacers, which will move very little. That's what this photo is showing. The welded top ring with the 4 legs on it fully welded and then just tacked onto the bottom ring. No cursing, beating or banging. Strategically, those four small welds are in a good place for minimal distortion. Everything goes together so much more cleanly like this. Everything left is adjustable with the bump of a rubber mallet for fine tuning.
Everything then fits as measured and planned, with so surprises/further cursing.
This still gets 8 fishing rod holders and this will then plug into a trailer hitch on a golf cart so it gets a section of 2" 2" box under it yet.
What welding projects are you working on? Are you proud of something you built?
How about posting some pics so other welders can get some ideas?
How about posting some pics so other welders can get some ideas?
So, TamJeff. You mean that notching 7/8" tube is not necessary? I thought about that for a while whether or not notching was necessary. I think the reason I do it, is for looks. I guess when you think about it, the joint isn't any stronger if you notch it. I mean 7/8"? It just seems better when you notch. It's like waving a Polaroid picture. Experts say it does nothing. I'm gonna practice that and let you know how it turns out. Thanks for the heads up.
Tubing is different than sched 40. And only with aluminum. After welding this stuff every day, you get used to being able to instantly focus the heat on the main pipe or the heavier part of the joint instead of cut edges. I have tried it both ways with AC on aluminum. You can't tell the difference aesthetically. I will end up with a sched 60+ weld.
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- Otto Nobedder
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I typically grind a simple "vee" on the end of a pipe, when it's not pressure/process, just to give me four points of discreet contact for easy tacks, for pipe from 3/4" to 2". Below 3/4, I don't worry, and above 2, I cope only as needed for a weldable joint (I do mostly stainless sch. 5 and 10).
This all goes out the window for pressure & process piping, of course.
Tubing is another matter... I don't usually have any tubing work that isn't pressure/process, and it's usually 1/2" and smaller, and either .049 or .065 wall. That stuff has to fit as if for Crazy Glue...
Steve S
This all goes out the window for pressure & process piping, of course.
Tubing is another matter... I don't usually have any tubing work that isn't pressure/process, and it's usually 1/2" and smaller, and either .049 or .065 wall. That stuff has to fit as if for Crazy Glue...
Steve S
Sometimes I will exaggerate a cut to give it the essence of a cope. Larger pipes I will cope so to minimize heat fatigue on the joint.
I have repaired numerous instances where they followed a cope line only to end up with half a wall thickness of weld. The point so sharp that they had to forego penetration to keep from going off of their line.
I would expect your type of work to be quite sensitive to fit up. Especially after seeing the types of failures you have posted that you are dealing with on any given day.
I have repaired numerous instances where they followed a cope line only to end up with half a wall thickness of weld. The point so sharp that they had to forego penetration to keep from going off of their line.
I would expect your type of work to be quite sensitive to fit up. Especially after seeing the types of failures you have posted that you are dealing with on any given day.
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- delraydella
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What would be your recommendation for aluminum box stage truss? The first picture is a typical piece, the outside tube is 2" diameter, the 45 degree pieces inside are 3/4". I believe the wall thickness is 1/8th inch. A typical piece is 9" x 9" and is 8 to 10 feet long. The pieces are bolted together to about 40 to 50 foot lengths and carry a lot of weight in lighting, sound and cable. They are sometimes overloaded weight wise and are frequently abused. The second picture shows what can happen to an overstressed, overloaded stage truss.
If you were to build something like that, would you notch all of the pieces or would it be just as strong to butt join them and fill it in?
If you were to build something like that, would you notch all of the pieces or would it be just as strong to butt join them and fill it in?
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With the 3/4" racks to 2" trusses, I would NOT cope them in any way. The thickest weld sections then will be in the line of the load, whether compression or tension.
A weld-based failure here is probably in the weld quality, not the weld arrangement.
Frankly, I suspect an overload of the truss, or a vibration related failure, rather than a failure in any one weld.
Steve S
A weld-based failure here is probably in the weld quality, not the weld arrangement.
Frankly, I suspect an overload of the truss, or a vibration related failure, rather than a failure in any one weld.
Steve S
delraydella
- delraydella
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The bottom picture was caused by overloading the truss. The ground support towers are the same size truss and there is a corner piece that bolts to the ends to form the 90 degree corners. On most heavy duty square truss there is a 1/4 inch thick plate welded to each end of the truss and that's where the bolt connections are made are to fasten it all together. On this job , the plate welds failed and the actual plate sheared off of the end of one of the ground support pieces.
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I have built trusses like that, I build in prestress camber to compensate for loaded girders or trusses. Crown up, in other words. As stated above, no copes needed. 2" 'pipe' would have an ID of roughly 2" and an OD of around 2-3/8". 3/4 sched 40 would have an OD of just over an inch. You would barely have any measurable gap.
Was there room around the plate ends for linear gussets at the attachment points at the truss ends and the plates?
Another option would be to bore holes in the plate to let the truss rails into the holes of the plate and then weld it which would act as a ledger support so that the weld is just keeping it located more than supporting it.
Was there room around the plate ends for linear gussets at the attachment points at the truss ends and the plates?
Another option would be to bore holes in the plate to let the truss rails into the holes of the plate and then weld it which would act as a ledger support so that the weld is just keeping it located more than supporting it.
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I don't know if there was space for gussets on the truss that collapsed, I don't believe there was, though. Most of the heavy duty truss with plates at the end are made out of 2 inch pipe all the way around and 3/4 for the diagonals. The short pipe pieces are held back the thickness of the plate so the ends are flush. The plate is sheared at a sort of octagon shape and welded to the shorter pipes.
Assuming that all of the square parts of the truss are 2 inch pipe, would you then notch it?
The reason I'm asking all these questions is i'm trying to figure if it's worth it to start manufacturing truss and the time it takes to notch so many pieces will add a certain amount of labour to the cost, plus about 6K+ for a heavy duty pipe notcher.
Assuming that all of the square parts of the truss are 2 inch pipe, would you then notch it?
The reason I'm asking all these questions is i'm trying to figure if it's worth it to start manufacturing truss and the time it takes to notch so many pieces will add a certain amount of labour to the cost, plus about 6K+ for a heavy duty pipe notcher.
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I would notch larger pipes where they go into larger pipes like 1-1/4" to 1-1/4" on up, but not 3/4 into 1" and up. Aluminum moves regardless. Is why I like to make fully welded sub assemblies that can be either straightened, or pre-stressed. Once it's trapped, it's a bitch to fix.
Here's 1" sched 40 truss welded to 1-1/2" 40. No notches. Now here I have the 1" truss pipe tacked (fat tacks) to the nipples on the 1-1/2" leg, but I am just using it as a strong back to keep the leg from distorting so much when I weld it. I will weld the nipples to the larger pipe completely first. If it distorts it, I will remove the truss pipe, straighten the leg and reattach the truss. Those flanges have to mate back with the screw holes I already have in the boat from when I fit it.
Here's 1" sched 40 truss welded to 1-1/2" 40. No notches. Now here I have the 1" truss pipe tacked (fat tacks) to the nipples on the 1-1/2" leg, but I am just using it as a strong back to keep the leg from distorting so much when I weld it. I will weld the nipples to the larger pipe completely first. If it distorts it, I will remove the truss pipe, straighten the leg and reattach the truss. Those flanges have to mate back with the screw holes I already have in the boat from when I fit it.
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- weldin mike 27
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Hey,
You have offered a very helpful insight to complex pipe work with this thread. I have not the slightest idea on how to make any of the stuff you do, but im glad you laid it all down. Besides what you said about the coping actually not being the best way to weld small pipes of this nature, can you estimate how much time would saved in this job by having no copes?
Mick
You have offered a very helpful insight to complex pipe work with this thread. I have not the slightest idea on how to make any of the stuff you do, but im glad you laid it all down. Besides what you said about the coping actually not being the best way to weld small pipes of this nature, can you estimate how much time would saved in this job by having no copes?
Mick
Probably 50% quicker. Most notchers only go a couple degrees past 45 anyway. Many copes ending up being over 60 so it ends up being band saw work. By now I can cut them on the bandsaw quicker than I can adjust the notcher. You have to pre-cut the angles before notching anyway and again, the chop saw only cuts a couple degrees past 45 as well. Believe it or not, the preferred tool is an old Craftsman bandsaw tuned specifically for this type of work. The boss man bought a Delta and nobody uses it. They all flock to mine. lol
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- weldin mike 27
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Hey,
Thanks Jeff. May I just say that I find it sad that a true Craftsman is considering leaving the industry. You sould have bosses falling at you feet. Not sucking just saying that when you lay down work this good you deserve all the good things this industry has to offer. Not to have to give it the flick and get out.
Mick
Thanks Jeff. May I just say that I find it sad that a true Craftsman is considering leaving the industry. You sould have bosses falling at you feet. Not sucking just saying that when you lay down work this good you deserve all the good things this industry has to offer. Not to have to give it the flick and get out.
Mick
I appreciate that Mick. I should say that I have gotten the best out of this industry. I'm sure I will find something satisfactory. Someone out there needs a guy like me, if for nothing else other than I show up every day without fail.weldin mike 27 wrote:Hey,
Thanks Jeff. May I just say that I find it sad that a true Craftsman is considering leaving the industry. You sould have bosses falling at you feet. Not sucking just saying that when you lay down work this good you deserve all the good things this industry has to offer. Not to have to give it the flick and get out.
Mick
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Hey,
Best of luck with it all Jeff, Im sure that you will find a killer job somewhere. Ever thought of emigrating to.Australia, there is a lots of nice boats out here that could do with some mad accessories .
Mick
Best of luck with it all Jeff, Im sure that you will find a killer job somewhere. Ever thought of emigrating to.Australia, there is a lots of nice boats out here that could do with some mad accessories .
Mick
- weldin mike 27
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Hey,
Music booze girls beaches.... its all here. Only problem is all the animals want to kill you.
Seriously though, I have only worked at 3 places in my life, 1 general engineering shop, 1 hospital maintenance section, and my current, a huge defence contractor. However the main themes run though them all. They all had one top operator who is the go to man for all problems. Whether they are paid to actually do that job or are just a senior shop floor worker, the all have vast knowledge of jobs, techniques and problem fixing. These guys, much like otto and yourself, are almost unofficial bosses. I think that you would be perfect in a job like that. Heaps of knowledge , patience to help and not a hint of arrogance . All the attributes i would want in a workshop foreman or leading hand..... If you could find a job like that, they would be much better for having you.
Man this really sounds like I've got a Man crush on you.
But my only intentions are to let you know, people like you and otto and others on this forum are worth their weight in gold to any shop smart enough to snap them up.
Weird rant over...
Mick
Music booze girls beaches.... its all here. Only problem is all the animals want to kill you.
Seriously though, I have only worked at 3 places in my life, 1 general engineering shop, 1 hospital maintenance section, and my current, a huge defence contractor. However the main themes run though them all. They all had one top operator who is the go to man for all problems. Whether they are paid to actually do that job or are just a senior shop floor worker, the all have vast knowledge of jobs, techniques and problem fixing. These guys, much like otto and yourself, are almost unofficial bosses. I think that you would be perfect in a job like that. Heaps of knowledge , patience to help and not a hint of arrogance . All the attributes i would want in a workshop foreman or leading hand..... If you could find a job like that, they would be much better for having you.
Man this really sounds like I've got a Man crush on you.
But my only intentions are to let you know, people like you and otto and others on this forum are worth their weight in gold to any shop smart enough to snap them up.
Weird rant over...
Mick
- Otto Nobedder
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Man crush?
Seriously, if I were asked to assemble a crew a la' "fantasy football" for welders, I could man it up from this site alone.
There is such a broad base of knowledge, skills, experience, ambition, and general cooperation here, I think we could build a nuclear reactor from a bar-napkin drawing (drink ring and all)! (Okay... might need it drawn on toilet paper... to establish the sequence , only don't follow the brown lines... )
Steve S
Seriously, if I were asked to assemble a crew a la' "fantasy football" for welders, I could man it up from this site alone.
There is such a broad base of knowledge, skills, experience, ambition, and general cooperation here, I think we could build a nuclear reactor from a bar-napkin drawing (drink ring and all)! (Okay... might need it drawn on toilet paper... to establish the sequence , only don't follow the brown lines... )
Steve S
- weldin mike 27
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This is what good shops used to be like. Everyone was into the best end results. I knew I had skills, but it didn't stop me from working vicariously thru others tasks. Ego was of a collective mindset. Bosses had been up through the ranks and it was obvious they hadn't forgotten where they came from, which is what seems to be present on this forum.
I would not mind being a working foreman. It would drive me nuts watching everyone else having all the fun otherwise.
LOL. .. I didn't take any bromantic vibes from your posts, Mike. It's good that people actually speak outside of the usual internet one-upmanship that is the norm on most forums these days. I hope we get to carry on here for a long time. I know quite a few Ozzies from the internet. Most are good sorts.
I would not mind being a working foreman. It would drive me nuts watching everyone else having all the fun otherwise.
LOL. .. I didn't take any bromantic vibes from your posts, Mike. It's good that people actually speak outside of the usual internet one-upmanship that is the norm on most forums these days. I hope we get to carry on here for a long time. I know quite a few Ozzies from the internet. Most are good sorts.
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- weldin mike 27
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Hey,
You will still find a number of places like that over here. But I always say, we are about 20 25 years behind you guys. I also know a large number of bosses that either forgot where they came from, were never even there or when they were there they were so crap that they jumped at the first chance they could to climb on up. Usually at the expense of other hard working knowledgeable people. I have always said that the place I work at, the supervisors are chosen by default, no one good wanted the job so they had to pick the shit.
Mick
You will still find a number of places like that over here. But I always say, we are about 20 25 years behind you guys. I also know a large number of bosses that either forgot where they came from, were never even there or when they were there they were so crap that they jumped at the first chance they could to climb on up. Usually at the expense of other hard working knowledgeable people. I have always said that the place I work at, the supervisors are chosen by default, no one good wanted the job so they had to pick the shit.
Mick
Same way here now. We used to get in a higher position and remember our team. They in turn would step up when needed and everyone would look good, work would get done, money flowed to where there was enough to advance the whole company in a seemingly perpetual fashion. It's not difficult to be fair. I worked at a place where people got advanced by joining the owners church along with a bunch of other boot licking. I quit. It was nauseating to watch.weldin mike 27 wrote:Hey,
You will still find a number of places like that over here. But I always say, we are about 20 25 years behind you guys. I also know a large number of bosses that either forgot where they came from, were never even there or when they were there they were so crap that they jumped at the first chance they could to climb on up. Usually at the expense of other hard working knowledgeable people. I have always said that the place I work at, the supervisors are chosen by default, no one good wanted the job so they had to pick the shit.
Mick
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Hey,
I have not encounted the church thing before, however the is a town about an hour and a half north of me where alot of Major businesses are owned by members of the Exclusive Brethren. Their members first before all else. The worst thing i have encounted is when a sniveling little supervisor with a little johnson wants to treat you like crap at work but when you go out the gate thinks it all goes away. Sorry Bud, that crap dont ride with me.
Mick
I have not encounted the church thing before, however the is a town about an hour and a half north of me where alot of Major businesses are owned by members of the Exclusive Brethren. Their members first before all else. The worst thing i have encounted is when a sniveling little supervisor with a little johnson wants to treat you like crap at work but when you go out the gate thinks it all goes away. Sorry Bud, that crap dont ride with me.
Mick
delraydella
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We used to do a lot of work for this one museum and they loved what we did. Then the project director quit and the museum hired a new one. It turns out she was a member of the same church that a competing shop owner is also a member of. We haven't heard from that museum since.
Mega-churches, those huge non-denominational churches with thousands of members, are the worst to work for. We've bid on some projects and provided them shop drawings, build schedules,etc. as part of the bid package as requested by them only to never hear from them again. Why, you might ask? They've now got the drawings and other know-how we may have provided them so why not get some of their members to "volunteer " to do the same project for next to nothing but some church brownie points? Now we charge a "deposit fee" for any requested drawings that might get sent out as part of a bid package. If they decide to screw us and do it themselves with our drawings, at least we'll get something out of it.
Mega-churches, those huge non-denominational churches with thousands of members, are the worst to work for. We've bid on some projects and provided them shop drawings, build schedules,etc. as part of the bid package as requested by them only to never hear from them again. Why, you might ask? They've now got the drawings and other know-how we may have provided them so why not get some of their members to "volunteer " to do the same project for next to nothing but some church brownie points? Now we charge a "deposit fee" for any requested drawings that might get sent out as part of a bid package. If they decide to screw us and do it themselves with our drawings, at least we'll get something out of it.
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