[Bill Beauregard]

Jody is a criminal!
Don't get too angry yet. I wanted some shock value. The fact is; government opposes those who build anything. Government is especially upset by anyone inventing anything, with the exception of big corporations, or federal grant sponsored research organizations. National electrical code says anything you use must be "listed". This means an approved testing lab must be paid a large sum of money to certify the safety. We aren't allowed to call them lamps anymore, now they are luminaires. Spell check never heard of them either! They must have the sticker!

Would I use Jody's lamp? Heck yes! Is it in violation of law? Yes. Code includes a big book full of rules, most are about everything being idiot proof. The tube & elbows become conduit system, they must be listed for the purpose they are used for. Bend radius is regulated, temperature is regulated. Bare bulbs are in many cases prohibited, and LED bulbs must not be enclosed. Bends must not exceed 360 degrees total. For numerous reasons, Jody's lamp is illegal.

I don't advocate not building things, but do urge you to think through the safety concerns they might bring. I believe government has killed invention. Tesla, Edison, Watts, Henry Ford, and thousands of others would be unknowns if government regulators were as powerful as they are today.

[rake]

Oh fucking please! The shooter was on the grassy knoll too!
It's all a big government conspiracy. Can we stick to welding
and leave the political bullshit at the door?

[Bill Beauregard]

Have a nice day Rake.

[Otto Nobedder]

Actually, if it "plugs in", there are no standards in the U.S. determining what is and is not safe or allowed.

Would I sell it? No. I wouldn't risk the liability. Would I build my own? Sure!

(The UL standards are for stuff you sell, not stuff you build at home.)

Steve S

[motox]

certainly not as dangerous as the idiots i
drive with everyday on he way to work...
government regulated driver licenses at work.
craig

[Bill Beauregard]

Actually, if it "plugs in", there are no standards in the U.S. determining what is and is not safe or allowed.

Would I sell it? No. I wouldn't risk the liability. Would I build my own? Sure!

(The UL standards are for stuff you sell, not stuff you build at home.)

Steve S

You'd be hard pressed to convince a VT electrical inspector of that. Flying under the radar is not the same as being legal. In private homes, enforcement of codes is spotty. Yes, I believe these codes are excessive. Yet I strongly advocate using your head in favor of safety. I liked Jody's practice of sliding Tig finger webbing through. The reality is lots of product with UL listing violates NEC. The listing overpowers code. We run into it often when designers or architects find small shop lighting builders. The cost, and redesign requirements of UL listing cause these builders to risk it and build small production numbers, or one of a kind lights without listing. These buildings don't get a Certificate of Occupancy from the state inspector until they are removed.

[Otto Nobedder]

I have to disagree.

If I choose to chain together several transformers from microwave ovens to attempt a "homebrew" welder, that's perfectly legal, so long as it plugs in to a properly coded protected circuit.

If I choose to turn a neon-sign transformer into a "Jacob's ladder", that plugs in to a coded, protected circuit, that's also legal, so long as the RFI does not interfere with the neighbors' reception (that's FCC, not NEC). By the way, I've done this, and it's cool as hell.

If, however, I build some crap like this and wire it to a switch (direct/permanent installation), then every aspect of it must meet NEC and NFPA standards. UL listing is not, in fact, a legal requirement. It's merely a "cover your ass" for the commercial sale of such a product.

Note to the Aussies, these are U.S. rules. Your mileage (kilometerage?) may vary.

Steve S

[rake]

Look, my family and I have been dealing with the BOCA code book off and on for the last 35+ years.
A residential building inspector's jurisdiction ends at the wall receptacle. Period. What lamp you choose
to plug into it is none of his fucking business. Anyone tells you otherwise is full of shit.

The electrical inspector can't tell you what lamp to use and the plumbing inspector can't tell you
what toilet paper to wipe your ass with either.

Look to the grassy knoll for your answers!

[Bill Beauregard]

I have to disagree.

If I choose to chain together several transformers from microwave ovens to attempt a "homebrew" welder, that's perfectly legal, so long as it plugs in to a properly coded protected circuit.

If I choose to turn a neon-sign transformer into a "Jacob's ladder", that plugs in to a coded, protected circuit, that's also legal, so long as the RFI does not interfere with the neighbors' reception (that's FCC, not NEC). By the way, I've done this, and it's cool as hell.

If, however, I build some crap like this and wire it to a switch (direct/permanent installation), then every aspect of it must meet NEC and NFPA standards. UL listing is not, in fact, a legal requirement. It's merely a "cover your ass" for the commercial sale of such a product.

Note to the Aussies, these are U.S. rules. Your mileage (kilometerage?) may vary.

Steve S

NEC defines a luminaire as a device for lighting. It makes no distinction between plug in and hard wired. All must be listed. Residential occupancies whether single family owner occupied, or thousand unit appartment buildings are typically inspected before anyone moves in. The requirement that all luminaires must be listed goes often unenforced. It is nonetheless required.
My son told of trying a crotch rocket at 150 MPH. He was not arrested. It was nonetheless illegal, and unsafe.

[rake]

Oh give it a rest. Anyone can buy lamp parts and make a lamp. There even kits available in hobby and craft stores.
There thousands of wood turners making them and selling them at flea markets.

I just got a C of O on a house and did not have to have one lamp plugged in.

JMHO but you are making yourself look like a tool.

Even the Cub Scouts make lamps!

[Bill Beauregard]

Aren't you tired yet Rake? Maybe you need a time out.

[rick9345]

Well this discussion is sure enlightening(illuminating) ?!!!!

[Otto Nobedder]

[quote="Bill Beauregard"]...Residential occupancies whether single family owner occupied, or thousand unit apartment buildings are typically inspected before anyone moves in..../quote]

And my lamp (and my son's "crotch rocket") are NOT PRESENT at the time of inspection. I haven't moved in, yet, after all.

Because C of O is NOT based on what I park in the garage, or what I plug in to the outlet.

Your version of the facts would outlaw many hobbies that rely on electricity.

Steve S

[Coldman]

Not a lot of laffs here. I say we end this thread right here and move on.

[AKweldshop]

Bill,
There isn't a inspector standing at every outlet in every building in the world to tell you what you can and can't plug in.
There's nobody there to stop you from sticking a screwdriver in the socket.
You can build anything you want to and plug it in. Whatever happens next is entirely on you.
People should have commen sense on what they plug into their outlets.


For example, I bought a little 2hp electric motor at an auction, brought it home and plugged it into a 115v outlet in the shop and flipped the switch.
The motor sparked and made a grinding noise and tripped the breaker.

The point is, anyone can plug anything into any outlet.

If you don't understand this, I give up. And I'm sure everyone else involved here will too.

Good night.

[TRACKRANGER]

Note to the Aussies, these are U.S. rules. Your mileage (kilometerage?) may vary.

Steve S

The code is similar here. If it connects to a 240V outlet through a 3 pin plug, it is considered an 'appliance' and is subject to quite different regulations.
(PS: We still use mileage, no one here worked out how to say the other)

[Bill Beauregard]

I've never said I agree with over protective, irrational rules. I didn't write the rules. In most cases electrical inspectors don't inspect occupied homes. Sometimes they do. When they do, things like extension cords, power strips, and homemade lamps are written up. NEC books get thicker with every new edition. Somewhere, somebody figures out a new way to do something stupid, code reacts with a new rule. As for sticking a screwdriver in a receptacle, you can't do that either if new receptacles for residential applications are used as required. They now require a "tamper proof receptacle, both straight blades of a plug must be inserted simultaneously. This makes for trouble calls from elderly people.

Are rules excessive? I believe so. Will you be held accountable for breaking them? Maybe. After a tragedy, someone is always blamed. VT is now trying to decide whether to try a mechanic for manslaughter. A 22 year old car owned by an eighty something year old lady on a fixed income suffered brake failure three months after he put an inspection sticker on it. I really feel bad for the guy. All VT brake lines are rusty. Most go another ten years before failing. For a fifty dollar inspection fee, it's a lot to ask that he go over every detail in an entire car.

I only ask that you think it through before building anything.

[rake]

Aren't you tired yet Rake? Maybe you need a time out.

Tired? No.
It's this discussion that needs a time out. Anyone can build a lamp. They sell "UL approved lamp
components" damn near everywhere.

[Otto Nobedder]

Aren't you tired yet Rake? Maybe you need a time out.

Tired? No.
It's this discussion that needs a time out. Anyone can build a lamp. They sell "UL approved lamp
components" damn near everywhere.

Well, since this is where this discussion began, it seems like a good place to end it.

Steve S

[motox]

rub the lamp three times and make a wish

[rake]

rub the lamp three times and make a wish

Careful what you wish, now that may be a felony.

[Boomer63]

rub the lamp three times and make a wish

Careful what you wish, now that may be a felony.

That depends on how old the lamp is, if you have consent, and if the lamp is able to make it's own decisions (in other words, not impaired)

[Bill Beauregard]

Wow! I feel like I said to my wife; "today's weather is perfect"

[rake]

rub the lamp three times and make a wish

Careful what you wish, now that may be a felony.

That depends on how old the lamp is, if you have consent, and if the lamp is able to make it's own decisions (in other words, not impaired)

But, if it's your lamp, you should be able to rub it all you want.

Rubbing it is just a sin. Not a felony.

[Superiorwelding]

Glad we could shed some light on that subject.....just not quite sure what we were looking at
-Jonathan