[TraditionalToolworks]

Alan, I know you were joking about getting a new one

No, actually I wasn't. I was dead serious even though I put a winky on there.

It doesn't seem that money is a real issue for you from your comments and I feel Miller is the gold standard, just like I said.

But if you prefer to get the used one, there is probably nothing wrong with that route as long as it's a solid machine, maybe you could take it to your LWS and have them test it out..

I wouldn't let a $500 module change your mind, it's not going to prevent your son from learning to tig weld. That's why I said at some point you'll need to make a decision for yourself. You can buy the module later.

I'd be fine with the PrimeWeld! It looks like a really nice machine. My problem is that this is a purchase driven largely by my son wanting to learn a very useful skill, and I did say my kids are a weakness. Even though he probably wouldn't care which I bought right now, someday he might, so I'm willing to spend for the HTP or used Miller.

I do have the Primeweld, it's not a bad machine, but it's not a Miller and not even an HTP, so if you really mean what you say here, I don't think you would ultimately be happy unless you get your son a Miller, so I don't see it being of real value to try and talk you out of it.

The benefits of the HTP seem to be:
It would be brand new.
It would have the CK20 25' torch (no idea if the one that comes with the miller is as good)
It has slightly more capability to tune the AC arc at baseline.

It's all horses for courses, you can get whatever torch you want later, it is not going to break the bank. If your son had a Dyntasty it's most likely going to last him for many years.

I really think you're letting the purchase take a hold of you. You can pontificate for months, it won't help your son become a better welder.

If you want the best, buy Miller. I would have probably done that if I was in a better financial situation, and short of that the HTP, but if cost is not an issue, get the Miller, it's simple.

[cj737]

@Dad - you can download the User Manual for the Dynasty prior to pick-up. Then you can put the machine through some paces, make changes and adjustments to determine its functioning property, including: Arc time, Arc Starts, and any Errors. That will give you strong indication as to the machine you’re buying. You can even research the Serial number thru Miller’s website and find out where and when it was bought. Then Register it to your son for Warranty, Recalls and other benefits.

My 200DX was purchased in 2005. I’ve spent $310 on it within the past 3 years having a small repair performed. Haven’t looked at hours and arc starts in a while, but last time I did I was astonished how much of my life has been spent at Shade 11

[Oscar]

Full disclosure, I am a tad biased because I own several Miller products.

No such disclosure is needed IMO; owning & liking a certain product doesn't make you biased unless you also happen to work for that company and their bottom line affected yours. Then you'd be biased. But other than that, Far as I know, no one here works for Miller nor PimeWeld nor HTP; we all simply just have our own preferences, for the same/similar reasons mostly. Either we have had good luck with their machines, or they are a better choice for our own personal situations/scenarios. Nothing biased about that that, IMO.

Spartan-It looks like everyone thought the HTP or Miller were worth the up charge, although to be fair, nobody has said why

You're absolutely correct, no one has said why. I'm sure the PrimeWeld is a fantastic machine, as I have yet to read any anecdotal evidence (online) about it not doing everything it is supposed to. I'd love to try one one, but as you can see, most that already have a Dynasty or Invertig don't really need a PrimeWeld 225 . A couple things to perhaps keep in mind:

• The Invertig 221 is IP23 rated, as is the Miller Dynasty 210dx. This rating is likely higher than the PW225, as it is a more "robust" industrial rating. I've not seen the manual for the PW225 as it is not on their site, so I don't know for sure. Just a hunch
• The Invertig 221 and Dynasty 210dx have better pulsing capabilities (higher pulsing frequencies)
• The Invertig 221 and Dynasty 210dx have more robust power supplies that allows
  • both machines to run E6010 electrodes with ease (Invertig 221 OCV on 240V: 67V, Dynasty 210dx: 80V)
• Dynasty 210dx works on 120-480V 1-Φ or 3-Φ input power
• Invertig 221 power supply can tolerate non-inverter portable generator electricity (I'm not sure about they PW225 nor the Dynasty 210dx because I don't own them)
• Minimum amps on the PW225 is 10A (don't know if that is just DC or both DC and AC) : Dynasty 210dx is 1A on DC, 2A on AC : Invertig 221 is 4A on DC, 10A on AC.

A huge chunk of change that you're paying for on the Dynasty 210dx is that power supply. A power supply that accepts 120-480V 1-Φ or 3-Φ input power likely costs more than what the entire PW225 sells for!

[JustTheDad]

My 200DX was purchased in 2005. I’ve spent $310 on it within the past 3 years having a small repair performed. Haven’t looked at hours and arc starts in a while, but last time I did I was astonished how much of my life has been spent at Shade 11

I am curious. How many hours are these machines good for. Several hundred? A thousand? More?

[v5cvbb]

Full disclosure, I am a tad biased because I own several Miller products.

No such disclosure is needed IMO; owning & liking a certain product doesn't make you biased unless you also happen to work for that company and their bottom line affected yours. Then you'd be biased. But other than that, Far as I know, no one here works for Miller nor PimeWeld nor HTP; we all simply just have our own preferences, for the same/similar reasons mostly. Either we have had good luck with their machines, or they are a better choice for our own personal situations/scenarios. Nothing biased about that that, IMO.

Spartan-It looks like everyone thought the HTP or Miller were worth the up charge, although to be fair, nobody has said why

You're absolutely correct, no one has said why. I'm sure the PrimeWeld is a fantastic machine, as I have yet to read any anecdotal evidence (online) about it not doing everything it is supposed to. I'd love to try one one, but as you can see, most that already have a Dynasty or Invertig don't really need a PrimeWeld 225 . A couple things to perhaps keep in mind:

• The Invertig 221 is IP23 rated, as is the Miller Dynasty 210dx. This rating is likely higher than the PW225, as it is a more "robust" industrial rating. I've not seen the manual for the PW225 as it is not on their site, so I don't know for sure. Just a hunch
• The Invertig 221 and Dynasty 210dx have better pulsing capabilities (higher pulsing frequencies)
• The Invertig 221 and Dynasty 210dx have more robust power supplies that allows
  • both machines to run E6010 electrodes with ease (Invertig 221 OCV on 240V: 67V, Dynasty 210dx: 80V)
• Dynasty 210dx works on 120-480V 1-Φ or 3-Φ input power
• Invertig 221 power supply can tolerate non-inverter portable generator electricity (I'm not sure about they PW225 nor the Dynasty 210dx because I don't own them)
• Minimum amps on the PW225 is 10A (don't know if that is just DC or both DC and AC) : Dynasty 210dx is 1A on DC, 2A on AC : Invertig 221 is 4A on DC, 10A on AC.

A huge chunk of change that you're paying for on the Dynasty 210dx is that power supply. A power supply that accepts 120-480V 1-Φ or 3-Φ input power likely costs more than what the entire PW225 sells for!

The Primeweld is high frequency start only, no lift start. It's also limited on the low end. 10A DC and 20-30A AC dependant on frequency. That's the only limitations I've experienced. It's a great budget machine, but isn't in the class of HTP or Miller.

[TraditionalToolworks]

The Primeweld is high frequency start only, no lift start. It's also limited on the low end. 10A DC and 20-30A AC dependant on frequency. That's the only limitations I've experienced. It's a great budget machine, but isn't in the class of HTP or Miller.

I didn't want to muddy the water but all this talk of EP/EN adjustment with a $500 module, I think we get that on our Primeweld in the form of Pulse Duty. I could be wrong, but honestly it doesn't even matter to me. I've never let myself believe that the Primeweld is a Miller or even an HTP, but it is perfectly fine for my needs. What I know for certain is that I would be hard pressed to get a Dynasty to function like the septic systems I'm about to buy. I don't care what modules they sell for it, I just don't see that happening...not unless I can fit 1200 gallons of $#!T into a Dynasty case. I did however get my 320 amp electrical service hooked up to my panel last Tuesday, and my PG&E rep sent me a text today wishing me a Happy Father's Day. #FTW

[Oscar]

all this talk of EP/EN adjustment with a $500 module, I think we get that on our Primeweld in the form of Pulse Duty.

It is a completely different technology/function. Nothing to do with standard pulse-capabilities.

[BugHunter]

Based on this thread (and my own research) the benefits of the Miller seem to be:
The interface is much easier to use.

That's a bit of a stretch...

It get's software updates periodically

One... if you buy it and update the firmware, you're done with firmware updates.

It can be upgraded to have the same AC tuning ability as the HTP, possibly even a bit more

mine came with that ability and I didn't pay extra for it. I bought mine in 2016, January or February if I recall correctly.

In 3 or 4 years, the Miller will likely retain more of it's value.

When I see what you can pick up used ones for, I think they hold value like a BMW or a Mercedes. LOL

[JustTheDad]

Based on this thread (and my own research) the benefits of the Miller seem to be:
The interface is much easier to use.

That's a bit of a stretch...

It get's software updates periodically

One... if you buy it and update the firmware, you're done with firmware updates.

It can be upgraded to have the same AC tuning ability as the HTP, possibly even a bit more

mine came with that ability and I didn't pay extra for it. I bought mine in 2016, January or February if I recall correctly.

In 3 or 4 years, the Miller will likely retain more of it's value.

When I see what you can pick up used ones for, I think they hold value like a BMW or a Mercedes. LOL

Hey BugHunter
How about
The interface is a little easier
It will depreciate less than the HTP.

I don't know anything about the firmware. Are you saying you get one free update and then there's never a firmware again?

[cj737]

My 200DX was purchased in 2005. I’ve spent $310 on it within the past 3 years having a small repair performed. Haven’t looked at hours and arc starts in a while, but last time I did I was astonished how much of my life has been spent at Shade 11

I am curious. How many hours are these machines good for. Several hundred? A thousand? More?

Keep going...

[cj737]

Every Miller that has an SD card slot can have firmware updates. The feature pack for Independent AC is an option for the 210/280DX. It comes standard on the 350/400/800.

I think any machine that has SD cards could also be updated in the field by the owner...? I just know that Miller does issue updates for their modern Inverters that tweak certain parameters periodically.

Oscar had an excellent explanation on cost differences. The Dynasty can run on portable generators, at 120/240v as well. Have done that more than a few times with mine. Even on a 5500 watt to weld up a bush hog spindle in the middle of a field.

[BugHunter]

Hey BugHunter
How about
The interface is a little easier
It will depreciate less than the HTP.

I don't know anything about the firmware. Are you saying you get one free update and then there's never a firmware again?

After a week with any machine, any interface that allows you to make settings will be fine. Even the Miller has hidden key combos, delays on keys, stuff that's not intuitive and not explained except in the advanced manuals. I'm just not willing to drink the cool aid when it comes to some of the marketing. My last tig welder was a big ole Hobart HF transformer machine and it had no interface, I was still more or less happy with it. ymmv.

I'd say it'll depreciate more, keep in mind, it's got a hefty price tag when new. I have a buddy who just bought a Dynasty 400 for $4000 used. I'm not sure what you'd calculate that loss to be, but it was hefty.

As to firmware, it's not something they're constantly messing with. The sequence works like this: Design on paper, prototype, add firmware update capability, rush to production w/known bugs in software, release for public to debug for you, fix said bugs (or don't in many cases), release new firmware making you a hero adding the features that should have been there to start with, end production cycle.

[Spartan]

I have a buddy who just bought a Dynasty 400 for $4000 used. I'm not sure what you'd calculate that loss to be, but it was hefty.

That's a steal. I'd definitely join the Miller club for those prices. I keep an eye on used ones in my area, and rarely see any great deals on the inverters. Typically only 20-30% less than retail is common in my area for machines which are quite used.

[JustTheDad]

On depreciation, I don't disagree. I only meant from my likely cost because a some of the "walk out the door" depreciation already happened.

The young guys teaching my son to weld use the Dynasty 210 at work. They're full time welders doing mostly stainless steel from what I've seen. If it works out, it will also be nice that they will be familiar with the machine.

[Oscar]

Or just skip all the decision making and get you one of these babies before they jack up the price.

AC waveforms, Asymmetric amplitude, 20-400Hz up to 99A (20-200Hz over 99A), DC pulse up to 999pps,awesome duty cycle, incredibly stable arc (I can make it hold a 4A arc on a properly sharpened 5/32" 2%Ce tungsten ), and of course heaps of power! Not to mention it kicks but as a stick welder and will light up any rod. Uses wired footpedal, wireless footpedal, hand operated amptrols, you name it!






Don't let this be you 1 year from now...




Sorry, I had to... carry on...

[TraditionalToolworks]

The young guys teaching my son to weld use the Dynasty 210 at work. They're full time welders doing mostly stainless steel from what I've seen. If it works out, it will also be nice that they will be familiar with the machine.

Todd,

And there you go, people that weld professionally for their career will almost always pick the Miller, as I have been telling you it is the gold standard. Sure, other welders are used but in the professional realm you will find more Millers than any other welder on the planet.

If you want your son to have the gold standard, look no further.

If it wasn't for price, there are few people that would pick any other welder.

[BugHunter]

That's a steal. I'd definitely join the Miller club for those prices. I keep an eye on used ones in my area, and rarely see any great deals on the inverters. Typically only 20-30% less than retail is common in my area for machines which are quite used.

He drove from central pa to upstate NY for that, found it on Craigslist. If I found one like that, I'd jump on it too.

On depreciation, I don't disagree. I only meant from my likely cost because a some of the "walk out the door" depreciation already happened.

The young guys teaching my son to weld use the Dynasty 210 at work. They're full time welders doing mostly stainless steel from what I've seen. If it works out, it will also be nice that they will be familiar with the machine.

I'm just saying don't get caught up in 'resale' or any other subjective metric. Pick what looks best to you for the $ and be happy.

My 210DX is staying here, I don't care how much residual value it's got. I'd need my head examined if I was to "upgrade" to a 400A machine or similar. Only if I could get 80%+ of what I spent retail would I dump it and spend more for a bigger machine. I'm pretty sure they don't hold value that well so I'm gonna get used to it being here.

[TraditionalToolworks]

My 210DX is staying here, I don't care how much residual value it's got. I'd need my head examined if I was to "upgrade" to a 400A machine or similar. Only if I could get 80%+ of what I spent retail would I dump it and spend more for a bigger machine. I'm pretty sure they don't hold value that well so I'm gonna get used to it being here.

It really only makes sense if you need the power, otherwise the Miller is best in class, IMO. There is no reason to think about getting rid of it until it's just not working anymore and at that point it probably won't have very much resale value anyway...

The whole point of having a tool is to be able to use it, not to plan on how to get rid of it. For some people it's an addiction, always having the latest and greatest, but most people aren't willing to take a very big loss. Just like the guy who had his HTP 221 DV in the classified section here, he wanted about $0.80 on the dollar and I certainly wasn't going to pay that, I would just get a new one. Therein lies the dilemma, not many people willing to pay $0.80 on the dollar when they can just go buy a new one with a full warranty for 20% more.

For anyone that can find a decent deal on a used one, more power to them, but Millers go for a premium in my area, nobody giving them away used... If they did, I'd have one.

[JustTheDad]

Given the thread title, this almost feels wrong, but we got the Miller. It turns out I didn't completely understand who I was buying the welder from, and I still don't. It's not quite a Miller Refurbish, although it's close. Miller sells or rents some stuff to teams they sponsor (?) in NASCAR or something. I don't know the arrangement, but I guess the teams get to keep the machines for up to 3 years and then they get sold. The team that had this one put 51 hours and 12 minutes on it, and then gave it back to Miller. Miller bench tested it, made sure everything worked, and sold it to me with a 1 year warranty.

I think the big difference is that it's too old to be sold as a refurbished model, but the guy who actually does the work on the "refurbished" ones said it went through the same testing as the 4 machines there that will be sold through dealers. This one actually had less hours than any of those, but it's too old, so it only gets a 1 year Miller warranty. I think refurbished get a 2 year warranty.

I did ask if those other welder, which had between 61 to 123 hours on them, were for sale at the same price. They weren't. Those are under 1 year old, so they'll get sold through dealers for a lot more money. We got the welder, cooler, cart, pedal, and torch for $3650 total, which seemed very reasonable to me.

The torch does have a red, black and black hose instead of a red, blue, and black one, so I guess the team replaced it at some point with whatever was around. The guy at the Miller warehouse was super nice and gave me a couple of ceriated (?) electrodes, a couple of #7 cups, and maybe a couple of 5's? I'll have to look at what the little ones are. He also welded some steel and some aluminum while we "watched".

Now we have to go get some Argon and learn to TIG weld !

[v5cvbb]

Sweet deal! Congratulations.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Todd,

That is sweet for your son, I have nothing but envy for him.

I never got a thing from my family, my parents were divorced when I was young and my Step-Father was one of the most horrible and selfish people on earth. Oh, I did get a new bike from my real Dad once, but that got stolen the first week when it was parked in the front yard when my Step-Father was watering the yard.

I never got a single tool or anything useful, and don't have near as nice of a welder as your son has. But that is not to say I'm jealous, although I could be some... Some kids are just not born into the right family, that much I get.

Lucky thing for my kids though...they were born into MY family. Neither of them got a nice welder like a Dynasty, but they may in the end...hopefully they're getting a lakefront shop/home debt free and by the time they get it there very well might be a Dynasty in it. They sure do have a few amazing machines that will be in it for the time being.

Congrats to your son! May the arc be with him!

[LtBadd]

Sweet deal! Congratulations.

+1

[cj737]

@Dad - LOL, I was going to tell you to go around to a few of the race teams and inquire if they had some machines for sale. I have a pal who welds for one of the large teams and has his eye out for a nice MIG machine for me. You scored a very nice deal on a great machine!

Go here: https://weldmongerstore.com/collections ... le-torches
and grab yourself a quality setup with all the cups, lenses and electrodes you need!

[Oscar]

Yup, very good deal on that. I'm sure y'all will love that machine.

[JustTheDad]

Lucky thing for my kids though...they were born into MY family. Neither of them got a nice welder like a Dynasty, but they may in the end...hopefully they're getting a lakefront shop/home debt free ... .

Congrats to your son! May the arc be with him!

Hey Alan,
Sorry your dad wasn't as good a dad as you. Kudos for being better!
Todd