[exnailpounder]

Sit amongst your vast array of welders and tools and all the things you have collected in your shop and think you're pretty smart for knowing what all of them do and you know how to use every one of them.....and then you go to McDonald's and the idiot that waits on you , that probably make as much money as you do, screws up your order and you wonder why you STILL love what you do?

[jroark]

I was laid off from a fabrication job I was at making $15 an hour at and working 40-80 hours or more at times a week. I welded, did the layouts, painted, loaded trucks, swept the floor, etc... Not being one to just draw a check I took a delivery job with City Electric Supply making $12 an hour to ride around in the heat and air conditioning. I wondered the same thing myself. It just doesn't add up sometimes.

[MosquitoMoto]

Welders and trades people in general are a breed apart, misunderstood and mostly undervalued.

(I'd recommend here that anyone who can get their hands on it reads Matthew B. Crawford's excellent book on America's deliberate devaluing of the manual arts, 'Shop Class as Soul Craft'')

I seldom think I'm particularly smart knowing how to use my tools as there are many who know better...my lament is that we - tool users - are so much the minority these days. The focus is on 'knowledge work' rather than any understanding or involvement with the stuff we own and use. TV ads for cars used to promote engines, power and handling, now it's about cup holders and Bluetooth.

I believe that to understand how something works and to engage with it deeply enough to be able to maintain and repair it...that is true ownership.

We love what we do because we hold to those values; the doing rather than viewing, learning about ourselves as we learn about the things that we use.


Kym

[exnailpounder]

Welders and trades people in general are a breed apart, misunderstood and mostly undervalued.

(I'd recommend here that anyone who can get their hands on it reads Matthew B. Crawford's excellent book on America's deliberate devaluing of the manual arts, 'Shop Class as Soul Craft'')

I seldom think I'm particularly smart knowing how to use my tools as there are many who know better...my lament is that we - tool users - are so much the minority these days. The focus is on 'knowledge work' rather than any understanding or involvement with the stuff we own and use. TV ads for cars used to promote engines, power and handling, now it's about cup holders and Bluetooth.

I believe that to understand how something works and to engage with it deeply enough to be able to maintain and repair it...that is true ownership.

We love what we do because we hold to those values; the doing rather than viewing, learning about ourselves as we learn about the things that we use.


Kym

I don't know about you but my favorite TV shows are Mythbusters and How it's Made. WTF is wrong with us

[MosquitoMoto]

Nothing!

Heck, I like being this way! And lately I particularly like the way my wife talks to my daughters; it says something about the 'standard' she's come to expect.

"For goodness' sake don't go marrying some soft-handed hipster who's scared of spiders, can't change a spare wheel on a car and calls a plumber to fix a dripping tap. Make sure you marry a proper bloke!"




Kym

[exnailpounder]

Nothing!

Heck, I like being this way! And lately I particularly like the way my wife talks to my daughters; it says something about the 'standard' she's come to expect.

"For goodness' sake don't go marrying some soft-handed hipster who's scared of spiders, can't change a spare wheel on a car and calls a plumber to fix a dripping tap. Make sure you marry a proper bloke!"




Kym

OMG Kym...you should see it over here...Everybody has a beard, dresses like a lumberjack, acts like a homo and couldn't change a tire if you held a gun to their heads. It's like I fell asleep one day and woke up to a Village People/Groundhog Day half-ass nightmare.

[jroark]

I agree. I hope my little girl finds a proper bloke. If there are any to be had around here by then. I'm gonna try to offer the local Boy Scouts, which my little boy is a part of, the opportunity to get their welding badge. Hopefully they'll leave the house with more than a badge. Maybe a desire to use their hands for more than facebook and texting.

[exnailpounder]

I agree. I hope my little girl finds a proper bloke. If there are any to be had around here by then. I'm gonna try to offer the local Boy Scouts, which my little boy is a part of, the opportunity to get their welding badge. Hopefully they'll leave the house with more than a badge. Maybe a desire to use their hands for more than facebook and texting.

I remember Cub Scouts. You got to wear your shirt to school the day of your den meeting. What happened?

[Otto Nobedder]

I grin at people who are proud of their beards, and have little else to show.
Vaginas grow hair, too, and put some of these beards to shame.
Why do I have a moustache and goatee? I'm too lazy to shave the curvy bits, and the rest of it can have a three-day growth before the need for maintenance shows.

Steve S

[MosquitoMoto]

I was kicked out of the Scouts on the first meeting I ever went to!

I grew up in the country; working on an orchard, riding dirt bikes, driving tractors, the whole thing. Some school mates (they lived in town, not out in the bush where I lived...) convinced me that I should go to a Scouts day.

I was okay until lunch time when they lit a small fire and dragged out a shovel like it was some kind of magic trick, then cleaned the shovel blade and set about cooking some sausages, using the shovel as a hot plate.

I told them that they were ruining a perfectly good shovel and that if my Dad ever caught me doing stupid crap like that he'd kill me. The disagreement flared up a bit after that and I was told to go home.

Wankers.


Kym

[exnailpounder]

[Poland308]

The world is full of Wankers. When they ask you fix something you charge them double. Or tell them you can't get to it right away and watch them panic.

[electrode]

Sit amongst your vast array of welders and tools and all the things you have collected in your shop and think you're pretty smart for knowing what all of them do and you know how to use every one of them.....and then you go to McDonald's and the idiot that waits on you , that probably make as much money as you do, screws up your order and you wonder why you STILL love what you do?

Yes, every day! What even more funny is spending over $100 to build something I could have bought for $40. Of course I buy enough extra material with the thought of making more of them and selling them, but that never seems to pan out. But I never go to McDonald's.

[electrode]

Welders and trades people in general are a breed apart, misunderstood and mostly undervalued.

(I'd recommend here that anyone who can get their hands on it reads Matthew B. Crawford's excellent book on America's deliberate devaluing of the manual arts, 'Shop Class as Soul Craft'')

I seldom think I'm particularly smart knowing how to use my tools as there are many who know better...my lament is that we - tool users - are so much the minority these days. The focus is on 'knowledge work' rather than any understanding or involvement with the stuff we own and use. TV ads for cars used to promote engines, power and handling, now it's about cup holders and Bluetooth.

I believe that to understand how something works and to engage with it deeply enough to be able to maintain and repair it...that is true ownership.

We love what we do because we hold to those values; the doing rather than viewing, learning about ourselves as we learn about the things that we use.


Kym

I don't know about you but my favorite TV shows are Mythbusters and How it's Made. WTF is wrong with us

But I am really starting to hate those shows where they rip someone off on a older collectable car and instead of really rebuilding it, they just buy a new engine and trans etc. They are just part replacers at that point. The only one doing anything is the body shop. Then they make $10,000 on it. Or the guy that brings his motorcycle to the same people and they say they can do a makeover for $35,000 and the dummy says "ok".

[electrode]

Welders and trades people in general are a breed apart, misunderstood and mostly undervalued.

(I'd recommend here that anyone who can get their hands on it reads Matthew B. Crawford's excellent book on America's deliberate devaluing of the manual arts, 'Shop Class as Soul Craft'')

I seldom think I'm particularly smart knowing how to use my tools as there are many who know better...my lament is that we - tool users - are so much the minority these days. The focus is on 'knowledge work' rather than any understanding or involvement with the stuff we own and use. TV ads for cars used to promote engines, power and handling, now it's about cup holders and Bluetooth.

I believe that to understand how something works and to engage with it deeply enough to be able to maintain and repair it...that is true ownership.

We love what we do because we hold to those values; the doing rather than viewing, learning about ourselves as we learn about the things that we use.


Kym

I don't know about you but my favorite TV shows are Mythbusters and How it's Made. WTF is wrong with us

+1

[electrode]

Welders and trades people in general are a breed apart, misunderstood and mostly undervalued.

(I'd recommend here that anyone who can get their hands on it reads Matthew B. Crawford's excellent book on America's deliberate devaluing of the manual arts, 'Shop Class as Soul Craft'')

I seldom think I'm particularly smart knowing how to use my tools as there are many who know better...my lament is that we - tool users - are so much the minority these days. The focus is on 'knowledge work' rather than any understanding or involvement with the stuff we own and use. TV ads for cars used to promote engines, power and handling, now it's about cup holders and Bluetooth.

I believe that to understand how something works and to engage with it deeply enough to be able to maintain and repair it...that is true ownership.

We love what we do because we hold to those values; the doing rather than viewing, learning about ourselves as we learn about the things that we use.


Kym

Yep, I learned a long time ago that no matter how smart you are, someone (many someones) are much smarter. But with that said, they may be smart on something I could care less about, but they are always making more money while they seem to be doing nothing. Kind of like when you were young and lifted weights and thought you were a badass until you ran into the guy that lifted more than you and you knew you weren't on the top of the food chain at that point. (And gave up being the badass).

[RamboBaby]

I don't have that problem. I own very few tools. I know several people who have all the tools I could ever need and the knowledge of how to do most things that I want to accomplish. Then there's this site and YouTube. That's how I cover my bases. I sometimes wish that I didn't have this third leg so that I could get some dumb sucker to do everything for me but then I realize how helpless that would leave me. I'm usually the dumb sucker doing stuff for some helpless chick.

[Farmwelding]

I think about it all the time and have to sit back and wonder why info what I do. I still have the "privilege" of being in high school, as much as I'd love to get out and work my 40+ hour week, but none the less inhear all the time people complain about their jobs at these restraints for useless things. We as tradesman need to remember things. We are doing something most people can't or won't ever do, we will have left an imprint for who knows how years to come, at the end of the day we have something to show for ourselves. As the late great Stan Rogers sang "but I like living free and that makes me an idiot i suppose." Those fast food worker and what have you have practically nothing to show for their minimal effort except a paycheck. These jobs are necessary I suppose but hey wouldn't have a job without people like us. No tools in the kitchen, no car to g et to their job, etc. While we may be a dying breed we have some of the most influence on society as tradesman. The common working man built this nation, the farmer, the blacksmith, and what have you as tarted this country. We've destroyed our tradition in the United States at least. I see myself blessed to have the opportunities to have tried out metal working other wise if be stuck going with everyone else getting a useless four year degree in something I'll never get a job in and make no difference for anyone except the CEO. When you build a car, a bridge, trailer, etc. You've made a difference. That's he American dream. That's worth more than any fast food worker or gas station clerk. It's like at the Christmas tree farm I work at. Pay ain't that great for the amount of physical labor, but I leave with a smile because I've made a difference and an impact on a family and became a part of their memories. That's worth a billion dollars itself.

[MosquitoMoto]

I'm gonna take this right back to the OP for a sec.

The comparison that was drawn was that a lot of you guys are awesome welders and fabricators who know how to use your gear and deliver an amazing result, yet some are paid the same kind of money as a troglodyte in a fast food store who can't even build a burger properly.

And while there are all sorts of factors that have led to this situation, I want to raise one fundamental perceptual flaw - in wider society, manual trades are often portrayed as undesirable meathead jobs occupied by people not smart enough to go to college.

The holy grail is to go to college, graduate, work in an office, wear a suit, delegate. Leave the menial stuff to the hordes of underpaid dumb arses.

Again, I'm drawing a lot from Matthew B. Crawford's book here, but there is nothing dumb about the trades. Beyond the grinding, welding, wiring and plumbing there is a lot of thinking and problem solving going on. And as Crawford argues, there's a fundamental irrefutability that demands a tradesperson is effective in their job. Wire a house, turn on the lights, it doesn't work. No ifs or buts, you did it wrong. Go and do it again.

In the trades there's so much more accountability and far fewer opportunities to hide than in an office job where the 'goal' is often poorly defined and it can be hard to judge achievement or tell a good job from a poor job. That's what gives me the shits - tradespeople very much work with their brains as well as their hands, delivering work that people rely on to be right. Yet despite this, trades are still looked down upon to the point where plenty of young people waste their time studying towards an office job that they are ill suited for. Or go work in a fast food store.

Rant over. For now.


Kym

[Arno]

IMHO it's partly the way most business is structured these days and the way many operate.

Doesn't really matter if you look at the traditional 'trade' work like metalwork and construction or even at the new areas like IT.. The parallels are very real.

My normal work is in the 'information industry', but you see the exact same thing there even though a lot of people are sitting at a desk

There is this widely held management view that anyone actually doing the required 'operations' at the bottom of the management chain needs less and less knowledge and training.

This is borne out from the time when the likes of Ford and such started working on assembly/production lines where the work was indeed reduced to it's most basic component and sub-divided so far that it actually didn't take much (if any) knowledge to perform.

However..

With the increase in mechanisation/robotics over all these years I think it means that a lot of the perceived 'low end' jobs have really become much more complex and involved than they are given credit for. Even a lot of the current assembly-line jobs do require quite a few skills.

A prime example of this I always think is the much hated 'helpdesk' lines you can call. Yes.. These are often outsourced to different countries but that's not the issue. The question is 'why are these outsourced?' and the answer is that the management view of these jobs is that they are 'simple and standard' so could easily be done by someone else/cheaper.

Well.... "And thats where you went wrong"...

In some specific cases, yes that may be true, but in so many cases this is completely not the case so all you end up with is a completely under-trained person supposedly needing to provide help and assistance to others but they have no clue how things really work/operate/etc.

The result usually isn't good (to put it mildly.. )

Companies who are more 'on the ball' in different areas do acknowledge this and will put more 'appreciation' (for lack of a better word) on jobs that are often viewed as 'menial' but have progressed far from this.

However..

A huge amount also depends on the people doing the jobs and their motivation/willingness to 'do stuff right'. We all know the people (in each level of any company) who just come in each day because it pays the rent, but they can't be bothered otherwise.

Lower grade jobs do attract a lot of these un-motivated people as they require low investment in training, but if it's your thing then even if you start out flipping burgers at a big fast-food chain there's often a lot of growth and career opportunities available for those who are motivated.

So I think it's various reasons that make a lot of the actual 'making stuff' type of work (wether physical or coding stuff ) less appreciated and viewed, both from a organisation viewpoint to the larger-than-average number of people who get drawn into these jobs without any motivation and who do not really want to do a good job anyway.. (of course that may have very good reasons like financial or other hardship making people work in jobs they don't want to.. but still..)

Of course on this site we have a very skewed user-base of people who are 'curious' about things so probably a lot of similar views on issues like these

Bye, Arno.

[MosquitoMoto]

A lot of the modern (largely negative) attitude towards people who 'work with their hands' is thanks to a swing in attitude by the big societal change makers...marketers, driven by the wholesale embracing of consumer credit.

We live in a world where it is espoused as much more desirable to make choices rather than take physical action/engagement. The "You deserve..." attitude (which is bullshit!) that promotes Convenience Uber Alles. Fix the car? Mow the lawn? Wash the dog? Eeww, you'll get all dirty! Call someone to do it for you!

Break something? Buy a new one! Trying to fix it is so difficult and risks exposing yourself as, you know...a little bit poor or desperate or something.

Screw that. I say build it, don't buy it. And when I see 'no user serviceable parts inside' my attitude is always "challenge accepted!"


Kym

[OzFlo]

Well said Kym! I couldn't agree more.

I get annoyed when people undervalue tradies or denigrate them. It seems that the cleaner your hands are the more you get paid!

I used to be an aircraft maintenance engineer and was so for the best part of 25 years before someone decided that I was overpaid for working nightshifts and weekends to keep the company's aeroplanes safely in the air! But that's a whole other story..

My garage is full of tools and other paraphernalia, and whilst I might not be the master of them all yet, I love to give things a go and learn new skills; be that welding, machining or coffee roasting!

So who do you think all our friends ask for advice or help from when something is broken?? And that is the key.

[cj737]

If I may...

To Kym's and the OP's point, what is it about welding (specifically) that attracts someone? Work in often terrible conditions, dirty, hot, freezing cold, in the dirt and mud, grinding, laying upside down welding a Wastewater treatment pipe surrounded by decaying diapers and human filth, suspended from a rope hoping that the overhead pass you just laid in doesn't burn your trouser mouse off... There's certainly no glamour in it. And it mystifies anyone unfamiliar with the expertise required to do it properly to understand the appeal of it.

So why do people do it? Because they can. Because they know what it takes, they know how to do, they know to work and they were raised with the value of hard work is the only route to being honorable, and honor can not be bought or confiscated. Its a fast-dying segment of the worlds population and all the other examples provided within other posts are very true. It certainly isn't about the money.

But do name one single career or job or interview that requires you pass a certification exam or competency test each and every time you show up for an interview. There isn't. Welders must prove they can do what they say, else they aren't hired or they're fired very quickly when they fail. Too bad Senior Management and Public Servants aren't.... And as brave and honorable a person a welder is, they still suffer the rectal pucker ahead of each test and fear the man with the clipboard. Go figure...

[exnailpounder]

If I may...

To Kym's and the OP's point, what is it about welding (specifically) that attracts someone? Work in often terrible conditions, dirty, hot, freezing cold, in the dirt and mud, grinding, laying upside down welding a Wastewater treatment pipe surrounded by decaying diapers and human filth, suspended from a rope hoping that the overhead pass you just laid in doesn't burn your trouser mouse off... There's certainly no glamour in it. And it mystifies anyone unfamiliar with the expertise required to do it properly to understand the appeal of it.

So why do people do it? Because they can. Because they know what it takes, they know how to do, they know to work and they were raised with the value of hard work is the only route to being honorable, and honor can not be bought or confiscated. Its a fast-dying segment of the worlds population and all the other examples provided within other posts are very true. It certainly isn't about the money.

But do name one single career or job or interview that requires you pass a certification exam or competency test each and every time you show up for an interview. There isn't. Welders must prove they can do what they say, else they aren't hired or they're fired very quickly when they fail. Too bad Senior Management and Public Servants aren't.... And as brave and honorable a person a welder is, they still suffer the rectal pucker ahead of each test and fear the man with the clipboard. Go figure...

Great post! I am struggling to keep my head out of water right now. The holidays are always the worst as people are spending money on gifts but I can never see myself going to work for someone again unless it's contract work where I can still be mostly my own boss. I have never seen it fail that the stupidest, laziest, ass kissing backstabbers always get the boss jobs while the hard working, and proud guys that actually DO the work, get the shit end of the stick all the time. I thought it was only this country that has fallen apart but from what the Aussies say, they are seeing it too. Maybe thats why we get along so good here. I'm too old to change now and I respect the Hell out of people like me who are part of a dying breed who refuse to give in. I applied for a job at the local Lowes, a few months back. I went to the store for an interview and I met one incompetent idiot after another and I realized I could never make it in that environment and I got up and walked out before I was even interviewed. I would rather struggle and keep my pride rather than work at something where I have to shut off one side of my brain just to be able to not strangle someone. What we have is called pride guys.

[FoxZulu]

It's not just the US and Aus. Successive governments here in the UK have systematically dismantled our engineering and production industries over the past 50 years or so. Most British industry now is 'Service'. We just don't make anything anymore.
You guys are right though, if you've got dirt under your fingernails and ground into your skin and spark burns on your forearms you must be doing a menial job