[rbaldie]

I am new to this forum but not to welding. My current TIG machine is a Lincoln Square Wave 175 Pro which I am not all that happy with, so I have been looking at a new IGBT based machine and came upon this Primeweld review. Has anyone had any experience with the TIG 225x or other Primeweld welding product?

[cj737]

Yep, suggested it to a friend who is new to welding and needed an AC TIG capable machine.I was very surprised by it. The kit it comes with is surprisingly good quality for the money.

I sat down and spent 3 days with him teaching, showing, and welding on a variety of things, even some production aluminum work. I would say it welds as well as my existing Dynasty 200DX, better than my old Lincoln 250 transformer, and has nearly every function I required.

He has had it a bit over a year now. Completely trouble-free for him, he uses it several days a week, and probably has over 500 hours on it. For the price, I'd almost buy one as a "disposable" TIG if I had to go onsite and leave a machine behind daily.

[rbaldie]

Great, just the kind of hands on review and appraisal that I was looking for, thanks for the quick response as well.

[ShutterBug]

I just bought one of these over Thanksgiving. I'm new to TIG and don't have a ton of hours on it, but it is certainly doing the trick for me. I chose it over some of the others because of the review that The Fabrication Series gave it.

My welding instructors at Lincoln think it's a nice machine as well. (shhhh! don't tell anyone. )

[rbaldie]

I also went and bought one based on the feedback of several YouTube channels. I have tried it on automotive sheet metal and find it more configurable than my Lincoln Square Wave 175 Pro. I have yet to try it on AL, which is why I bought it in the first place, but plan to get to it today actually. I will post my findings after some more weld time on the machine.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I sat down and spent 3 days with him teaching, showing, and welding on a variety of things, even some production aluminum work. I would say it welds as well as my existing Dynasty 200DX, better than my old Lincoln 250 transformer, and has nearly every function I required.

cj,

Looking for an opinion. I have been using an Everlast Power i-Tig 201 for the past couple years. It's been a good machine for me to learn on, and I don't weld as much as many people but I would like to be able to weld aluminum.

I've kind of been set on getting an HTP, but reading your response to this thread got me to think about the Primeweld again. The only thing it doesn't do is E6010, but that's not a deal breaker I don't think, my Neverlast doesn't do it either and I could substitute 6011 in it's place if needed. I use 7018 more often, but E6010 is better suited for dirty environments and the reason I have wanted it. Of course I could get an inexpensive stick welder to do that I 'spose.

Aside from the noise (I have heard the Primeweld is fairly noisy), does the Primeweld seem like a solid machine? Comes with pretty decent consumables, similar to what I use on my Neverlast. I could probably sell my Neverlast if I was to pull the trigger on the Primeweld.

My original plan was to get the single voltage HTP and keep the Neverlast for 115v, but it's another $520 for the DV model which is almost as much as the Primeweld is in itself. 4x is a pretty big difference in price between the HTP and Primeweld and since I am more of a hobbyist welder it might make more sense for me to go the Primeweld route. The other consideration is that the 210DX is not too far off from the HTP 221 DV. I see them for about $4200-$4500 on IOC.

Anyone know how many amps the Primeweld requires for max inrush?

Any advice? (short of holding out for a Dynasty)

EDIT: One other question i have is that I know the Primeweld uses analog knobs for the selector which my Neverlast does also, but one piece that is difficult with my welder is when I set the pulse, you can't see the actual setting, so it's kind of a mystery. Do you or anyone else know if that's the same on the Primeweld or does it show up on the digital display when you select it?

Alan

[mechanic416]

The primeweld Tig 225ACDCP is a good welder for the price. I like it over my HTP 221 because I can see at a glance were my settings are. I like my 221 for the low amp capabilities and some of the other settings, but you have to go through the hole menu to set everything.

The 225 will weld 6010 and 7018 well, but you have to understand these welders are made to do tig welding. Yes they stick weld but they lack the big transformers need for stick welding. Also most people don't need to use 6010 or 7018 as these are for code work.

[Oscar]

I'm sure the primeweld is a great machine, if it was available when I started getting into welding, I would have gotten that one without a doubt. It seems likea great value for the money and the customer support is reported to being excellent. That being said, there's a 221 DV in the Classifieds forum, but the OP is not answering anyone, lol. HTP's Instagram says they have a few 221's left in stock from a recent shipment. Given how things are in Italy with the virus, who knows when the next shipment of 221's will be!

[rbaldie]

Alan,

I started this post when looking for a new TIG welder, I have since acquired the Primeweld 225X and have had it for about a month and am very happy with it. I am only going to speak to 2 of your questions in this reply. First, since the 225x is a DV machine the power cord is about the same size and gauge as a heavy duty 12ga. extension cord, so even though I have not measured the working in-rush current, the assumption is that it does not exceed 20 amps. If anyone knows different please jump in. Second, the fan noise does not seem loud to me, it is less that my Lincoln TIG welder and way less than my ESAB MIG welder.

Randy

[TraditionalToolworks]

That being said, there's a 221 DV in the Classifieds forum, but the OP is not answering anyone, lol.

I know, I saw it and I was thinking to myself I'd pull the trigger on the welder at $2500, but since the guy didn't respond to you and he's across the country, I felt it safe to just kinda quit thinking about it.

HTP's Instagram says they have a few 221's left in stock from a recent shipment. Given how things are in Italy with the virus, who knows when the next shipment of 221's will be!

That was one of my concerns, but I doubt anything coming from CHINA is gonna get in any easier...

I seem to get cold feet on another Chinese machine, last night I was thinking it would be a pretty good idea, but after sleeping on it I'm kind of hesitant. If nothing more than I just like quality machines. I read a lot of reviews of people saying the arc is better than their Dynasty, but the unit itself is not like a Dynasty. Sure, it's a fraction of the price, but it seems the expectation from a lot of people is that you get a Dynasty for less than 20% of the price. Somehow the real world doesn't exactly work like that, not trying to put down Chinese machines as I do have one. I suspect part of me wants to get rid of my Neverlast so bad that I would even be willing to accept a different Chinese machine so I don't have the green weenie in my shop. It's not the machine I detest, it's been really good...it's Oleg & Co. and how they treated me, notably Mark.

First, since the 225x is a DV machine the power cord is about the same size and gauge as a heavy duty 12ga. extension cord, so even though I have not measured the working in-rush current, the assumption is that it does not exceed 20 amps.

This part I actually don't understand. I run my welder on a 30 amp circuit. 30 amp circuit should get 10 gauge, and in fact I have a single phase extension I made of 10 gauge and the pig tail I made to go from L6 -> Nema 6, I used 10 gauge also. That is a kind of red flag, not a big one, but a small one. It is not safe to run 30 amps on 12 gauge, Just my opinion. I doubt that HTP or Miller use any less than required cable on their units. I would expect 10 gauge on a Dynasty 210DX, but 8 gauge on a Dynasty 280DX. I know cj has a 280DX, maybe he'll chime in.

Second, the fan noise does not seem loud to me, it is less that my Lincoln TIG welder and way less than my ESAB MIG welder.

The fan is not a deal breaker for me, the Neverlast I have is quite loud and doesn't have on-demand, so it runs all the time. I can actually hear music while I'm welding, I just turn the volume up a bit.

Alan - on the fence...

[cj737]

I have an old 200dx, but my mate has a new 280dx. I have used the PrimeWeld and it’s just fine. I’d wager that more folks never use 80% of the features of their welder.

I would also expect that the Dynasty and HTP rate as “pro” boxes that you really only need if you’re doing a variety of technically difficult work and code specific jobs. You also need to setup your welder when you get it. Case in point, the Dynasty has several preset variables that you probably want to alter for optimum results, like arc start amperage, preflow, wave form, etc. Spend the time and read the manual. You’ll find a huge amount of information.

I have not used an HTP, but I dare say, the new Dynasty and Maxstar machines are an unbelievably butter smooth arc. Even the stick machines are unreal compared to machines from 5 years ago. Will a newbie welder notice? Not likely. But someone who has decades of helmet time will, but also may not even care having had to learn to weld with a frying pan and rebar.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I have an old 200dx, but my mate has a new 280dx. I have used the PrimeWeld and it’s just fine. I’d wager that more folks never use 80% of the features of their welder.

I'm certain I fall into that category, I just don't really need all the bells and whistles and would even say that when there is so much it can sometimes be an diversion for people like me that wastes time.

I would also expect that the Dynasty and HTP rate as “pro” boxes that you really only need if you’re doing a variety of technically difficult work and code specific jobs.

Part of my problem is I like to have quality tools. It is the very reason I've replaced all the consumables on my current welder, all of them were one grade higher than junk, IMO. It's not that I need professional tools for everything, I just like and appreciate quality tools. Maybe it's good to hear a voice of reason as yours for me, to realize that I don't need it and in many ways would be a large investment that I probably wouldn't be able to justify. Not as if that has stopped me in the past...

I have not used an HTP, but I dare say, the new Dynasty and Maxstar machines are an unbelievably butter smooth arc. Even the stick machines are unreal compared to machines from 5 years ago. Will a newbie welder notice? Not likely. But someone who has decades of helmet time will, but also may not even care having had to learn to weld with a frying pan and rebar.

That's a good point, but it also says something about how technology has progressed. 25 years ago anyone would have been thrilled to be able to run a Lincoln buzz box in their garage. Today is a much different story. Maybe I don't appreciate what I currently have as it does mostly what I need to do. I don't weld aluminum much, but if I had it I feel I would if for nothing else but weight. There are projects that would be better to do with aluminum for the ability to have them weigh less, although most of them can be done with steel. rbaldie's comment about 12 gauge wire being used on the plug make me curious about my Neverlast. It's something I haven't paid too much attention to recently, gonna go out and check that now...if I do end up with a Primeweld, that is something I would probably fix and add a 10 gauge piece of wire for the plug.

EDIT: HOLY FLOCK SHEEPMAN there is no way my power cord on my Neverlast is 10 gauge either. It might even be 14 gauge it looks so think in comparison to 12 gauge. I think I have a piece of 10 gauge, that's getting replaced.

OTOH, might be a good time to upgrade to the Primeweld and sell the green weenie, let the buyer worry about it, and replace the cord on the Primeweld.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Would it be hard to run a piece of 8/3 and upgrade? The 10awg is good for 35 amps but is derated for small conductor correction. So as oscar started, probably not the end of the world. Just not kosher.

Simclardy,

I think you may have replied to the wrong thread. I'm moving this to the Primeweld thread where the size of the plug cord was being discussed, I mentioned I was going to replace the cord on mine as I felt it was clearly too small.

As Oscar stated in the other thread, I am not an electrical engineer, so maybe you can help both of us out here.

I'm really not familiar with small conductor correction, so I just googled to find this link:

https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-sta ... rs-part-vi

They show 2 different ratings, one for 167 degrees F. and another for 192 degrees F.

The rating for 12 ga for the 192 degree F connectors shows 30 amps. Maybe that's ok for the Primeweld as rbaldie said that is what is on the Primeweld. Are the molded plugs rated higher than a normal plug?

My Everlast green weenie says it complies to IEC60974-1 which is a welding standard. But I'm not clear what category the wire/plug falls into. Do you know? I haven't had any issues, my machine requires 27 amps and I run it on a 30 amp circuit. I don't know exactly what the Primeweld requires, I've seen reference to people using a 30 amp circuit online, but that doesn't mean that is what the machine is actually rated for.

Label from the Everlast i-Tig 201 green weenie machine

i-tig-201-label.jpg (48.58 KiB) Viewed 35074 times

[Simclardy]

Would it be hard to run a piece of 8/3 and upgrade? The 10awg is good for 35 amps but is derated for small conductor correction. So as oscar started, probably not the end of the world. Just not kosher.

Simclardy,

I think you may have replied to the wrong thread. I'm moving this to the Primeweld thread where the size of the plug cord was being discussed, I mentioned I was going to replace the cord on mine as I felt it was clearly too small.

As Oscar stated in the other thread, I am not an electrical engineer, so maybe you can help both of us out here.

I'm really not familiar with small conductor correction, so I just googled to find this link:

https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-sta ... rs-part-vi

They show 2 different ratings, one for 167 degrees F. and another for 192 degrees F.

The rating for 12 ga for the 192 degree F connectors shows 30 amps. Maybe that's ok for the Primeweld as rbaldie said that is what is on the Primeweld. Are the molded plugs rated higher than a normal plug?

My Everlast green weenie says it complies to IEC60974-1 which is a welding standard. But I'm not clear what category the wire/plug falls into. Do you know? I haven't had any issues, my machine requires 27 amps and I run it on a 30 amp circuit. I don't know exactly what the Primeweld requires, I've seen reference to people using a 30 amp circuit online, but that doesn't mean that is what the machine is actually rated for.

i-tig-201-label.jpg

The small conductor correction is for the branch circuit, not the extension cord on the machine. This is found in the electrical code book NFPA70 table 310.16 formerly 310.15(b)16 formerly 310.16........
... lol...... lol. Sorry im losing my mind with code changes.

Manufacturers need to have their equipment listed. UL being the most recognizable. Whatever the manufacturer recommends becomes the minimum.
So if chinas best is ul listed to run on 18 gauge then that is ok. Of course UL is reliable so they would not, but it would not be the first time a company printed UL stickers:(
If the company says you need 6awg for 20amps that is the minimum!

I ran into this with kohler generator. (I'm a kohler dealer)
Nfpa54 states what gas pipe size to use, but kohler has a recommended chart that requires larger pipe size for certain scenarios. I am required by the inspector to follow the kohler chart.

Back to the branch circuit temp rating.
There are multiple layers to temperature correction but the first step is to start in the right column in table 310.16.
You take the lowest rated piece and go with that. The 90C column is almost never used. Breakers are usually 75C. Romex is 90C but states that you must use the 60C column for ampacity.........what!!!!!!...... lol..... crazy lol...
Then we come to the small wire rule. If you have a 75c breaker with 10awg thhn (90C) in a conduit, running through a cool basement you still can't use the 75c column because of the small wire rule..... unless it falls into an exception for specific equipment.
And then you temperature correct for number of conductors in a conduit.
Oops, i forgot, table 310.16 is based on an ambient air temp of 86°f. So if ambient temp is higher make sure to correct.

At the end of the day it's all about heat dissipation. ......and voltage drop ....

You can understand why some guys throw their hands up and just upsize the wire. Lol

Cheers

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Oscar]

Exactly, just upsize the wire, give it some "breathing room" (cooling space), and that will take care of temperature AND voltage drop, especially if you do overkill "Texas style".

[TraditionalToolworks]

The small conductor correction is for the branch circuit, not the extension cord on the machine. This is found in the electrical code book NFPA70 table 310.16 formerly 310.15(b)16 formerly 310.16........
... lol...... lol. Sorry im losing my mind with code changes.

Geez, I completely understand, with all the various codes it's very confusing at minimum.

So if chinas best is ul listed to run on 18 gauge then that is ok. Of course UL is reliable so they would not, but it would not be the first time a company printed UL stickers:(

Hopefully a company as broadly exposed as Everlast wouldn't do something like that, but I wouldn't put my trust in them, not after how they treated me. The thing I can't see is the actual wire, and of course there's no marking on the outside of the cover for the cord the plug attached to the machine. I will figure it's ok, as I am guessing the Primeweld is also. Seems from what rbaldie said, his is marked 12ga.

I ran into this with kohler generator. (I'm a kohler dealer)
Nfpa54 states what gas pipe size to use, but kohler has a recommended chart that requires larger pipe size for certain scenarios. I am required by the inspector to follow the kohler chart.

I need to wire up a Phase Perfect that requires 100amps, does that mean I will need to use 1 AWG or will 2 AWG do for that? I only need to run a short distance, from the main panel to the converter which I will be putting on the wall next to it. According to the charts I'm seeing, 75C will take 2 AWG up to 115 amps, but 60C is 95 amps.

Then we come to the small wire rule. If you have a 75c breaker with 10awg thhn (90C) in a conduit, running through a cool basement you still can't use the 75c column because of the small wire rule..... unless it falls into an exception for specific equipment.

For clarity, my new shop will be in a full walkout basement (overlooking a lake! ), but it will be finished inside with finished walls and insulation. Does that fall under what you call a "cool basement"? I always thought it would be cool to have a shop overlooking a lake...but I think you're talking about a different type of cool!

You can understand why some guys throw their hands up and just upsize the wire. Lol

Indeed I can.

In my shop I keep everything at 10ga for my 30 amp circuit. That goes for machine connected to the circuit as well as the circuit itself. I was mostly worried about the plug on the actual machine itself. My extension that goes into my 30 amp single phase uses L6 twist lock, and my extension for single phase has the same connectors and then I have a pig tail on the end with a NEMA 6R for the welding NEMA 6P my welder has. The wire is all SOOW up to the welder plug, have no idea what that is because as I said, no markings on it. I'm gonna figure that UL means they got it approved and that the wire inside the cover is correct no matter how thin the overall wire looks. I was comparing mine to SOOW which is thicker with more insulation as I understand it. The plug cord is more like romax.

Thanks for explaining all this, was very helpful for me and some things I've pondered for some time. It's not easy to get welders wired up properly when they put L6Ps on all of them, no matter how many amps they require. Hopefully that helps rbaldie in case I worried him about the 12 gauge plug (I doubt).

Alan

[Simclardy]

Not sure what your unit is. Is it motor driven? Typically motor conductors need to be rated 125% of the name plate rating.
I would be surprised if it is exactly 100amps but assume 100a with 125%
You need a wire for 125a.
I would use chart 310.12 (2020 nec)
Because it sounds like a single family home. Unless you plan to use this continuously then you may want to use 310.16
Use #2 thhn
You can probably get some help from the manufacturer on sizing.
Don't use nm-b or "romex"
Im probably missing something that would be obvious if i was there so take my advice as advice and not scripture.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Oscar]

Depending on length, I would use 1awg or 1/0 gauge. I like to oversize to minimize voltage drop.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Not sure what your unit is. Is it motor driven?

No, it digital. They're widely used by CNC shops (and people that don't care for the sound of the motor humming... ).

I was just looking on their website, and they changed the model numbers, but for the 20HP model they state 95 amps and 1 AWG, as Oscar states.

Mine must be the same, I'll look in the manual.

Great product BTW, I know several people that use them in their shops and nobody has a bad thing to say about them.

I'll be keeping my RPC at my house where it is, my new shop/home is a 2nd home (i.e., man cave )

Alan

[sbaker56]

Article 630 of the NEC allows for a dedicated welder only circuit can be ran with downsized wire in accordance to the welder's duty cycle. I believe a Lincoln 225AC called for 12 gauge wire in the manual, and I believe that is also what the power cord was. Just as your 4 gauge welding leads won't immediately combust or even likely get warm if you weld at 200 or more amps for the span of only 1-2 minutes despite the fact 4 gauge wire is only rated for 70 amps, 12 gauge wire will also have more than enough time to dissipate any heat from briefly having 30-40 amps drawn through it.

Now I'm not an electrician, nor am I claiming to understand it as well as one. and there are a lot of reasons to have your wire sized close to or equal to what it would require if subject to maximal draw 24/7 such as reducing voltage drop. But your power cords are quite adequate especially if your machines draw at or above 50 amps. I would rather be drawing 25 amps through even a 14 gauge 5 foot power cord than from a 50 foot 10 gauge extension cord despite being 10 gauge being rated for 30 amps, however either one would likely be adequate.

[Simclardy]

Article 630 of the NEC allows for a dedicated welder only circuit can be ran with downsized wire in accordance to the welder's duty cycle. I believe a Lincoln 225AC called for 12 gauge wire in the manual, and I believe that is also what the power cord was. Just as your 4 gauge welding leads won't immediately combust or even likely get warm if you weld at 200 or more amps for the span of only 1-2 minutes despite the fact 4 gauge wire is only rated for 70 amps, 12 gauge wire will also have more than enough time to dissipate any heat from briefly having 30-40 amps drawn through it.

Now I'm not an electrician, nor am I claiming to understand it as well as one. and there are a lot of reasons to have your wire sized close to or equal to what it would require if subject to maximal draw 24/7 such as reducing voltage drop. But your power cords are quite adequate especially if your machines draw at or above 50 amps. I would rather be drawing 25 amps through even a 14 gauge 5 foot power cord than from a 50 foot 10 gauge extension cord despite being 10 gauge being rated for 30 amps, however either one would likely be adequate.

Keep in mind the chart you refer to for derating, 630.11(A), can only be used IF the unit does not have I eff stated.
I eff is taking duty cycle into consideration already.




Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[sbaker56]

Article 630 of the NEC allows for a dedicated welder only circuit can be ran with downsized wire in accordance to the welder's duty cycle. I believe a Lincoln 225AC called for 12 gauge wire in the manual, and I believe that is also what the power cord was. Just as your 4 gauge welding leads won't immediately combust or even likely get warm if you weld at 200 or more amps for the span of only 1-2 minutes despite the fact 4 gauge wire is only rated for 70 amps, 12 gauge wire will also have more than enough time to dissipate any heat from briefly having 30-40 amps drawn through it.

Now I'm not an electrician, nor am I claiming to understand it as well as one. and there are a lot of reasons to have your wire sized close to or equal to what it would require if subject to maximal draw 24/7 such as reducing voltage drop. But your power cords are quite adequate especially if your machines draw at or above 50 amps. I would rather be drawing 25 amps through even a 14 gauge 5 foot power cord than from a 50 foot 10 gauge extension cord despite being 10 gauge being rated for 30 amps, however either one would likely be adequate.

Keep in mind the chart you refer to for derating, 630.11(A), can only be used IF the unit does not have I eff stated.
I eff is taking duty cycle into consideration already.




Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Valid point, for wiring a welder outlet I really wouldn't suggest anyone who wasn't an electrician to follow those guidelines as they could easily be miscalculated. Rather I was just using it as an example to say the power cords on most welders are just fine.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Keep in mind the chart you refer to for derating, 630.11(A), can only be used IF the unit does not have I eff stated. I eff is taking duty cycle into consideration already.

Sim,

So riddle me this...what is the difference between the I eff and I max? On my green weenie these numbers are very close, but on the HTP they are quite different. I know the max is what it can ultimately draw, and isn't the effective current, is that what is typically used when the machine is running most of the time?

I apologize if you have answered this before, you may have.

[Oscar]

Keep in mind the chart you refer to for derating, 630.11(A), can only be used IF the unit does not have I eff stated. I eff is taking duty cycle into consideration already.

Sim,

So riddle me this...what is the difference between the I eff and I max? On my green weenie these numbers are very close, but on the HTP they are quite different. I know the max is what it can ultimately draw, and isn't the effective current, is that what is typically used when the machine is running most of the time?

I apologize if you have answered this before, you may have.

TTW, here is my take on it after analyzing the equation for Ieff given by the NEC 2011.

Summary: Ieff is an amperage number/calculation that effectively allows for the de-rating of the conductors based directly and almost completely determined by the duty cycle of the machine (in small part is the no-load idle current). The lower the duty cycle of the the machine, the more "de-rating" can be done and thus reduces the minimum required conductor sizes. Similarly, the higher the duty cycle of the machine, the less "de-rating" can be done and the larger the required conductor sizes must be relative to I1max.

Here is the plot of Ieff vs Duty cycle, using I1max=32A, and Io=1.3A. (open image in new tab).



As you can see, even though my HTP 221 draws 32A as a maximum, the fact that it has a 20% duty cycle, generates an effective amperage draw of ~14A or so. It doesn't have much to do with what the machine is actually pulling, for it is indeed pulling 32A. What it does mean is that it permits de-rating of the conductors to the equivalent of what would be needed for 14A as an absolute bare minimum, not as an ideal suggestion! For a welder that has 100% duty cycle, then the Ieff curve indeed does give the I1max value as the output, meaning no derating is possible for the conductors will not have time to cool off.


In fact, if I were to set I1max to 100A, the Ieff curve in the graph I posted, is pretty much identical to the chart in the NEC 2011 630.11(A) that gives multipliers for conductor sizes based on duty cycle on the non-motor generator column.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Oscar,

But the problem is we don't really know what the duty cycle is for the rating on the machine, or am I missing something? Same for I-max, I was curious about that last night. Jeff Noland say that I-max is for the max draw for stick welding which is higher than tig, but there is nothing to implies such and/or how the duty cycle is calculated for either.

Same on my green weenie, I have no idea how it was calculated, could be some of the Chinese "new math".

You would think that everyone going through UL approval would use the same calculations, but from what Simclardy mentioned that is not so. There seems to be some onus on the manufacture to provide good data.