[Jeff2016]

Hi,

Well... maybe 64 is a little too old to learn a new skill. lol

Seven years ago I purchased a new Miller Diversion 180 TIG welder. I got it set up; but, I never even plugged it in. This year I made learning (or attempting to learn) TIG a priority. This weekend I got everything together with the intention of baby steps.

Saturday I applied power to the machine. No issues and no real concerns. I tested the torch setup and everything looked good.

I had received a CK Worldwide 17 series torch as a gift soon after I bought the welder. Because the original Miller torch and cable assembly is so bulky compared to the CK I decided to change out the torch before moving forward. I did that yesterday. I used the CK cable extender with insulator after removing the Miller/Weldcraft torch. I had previously bought Jody's gas saver lens kit with the #8 Pyrex cup for the 17 series torch. I installed it on the CK torch this morning. I am using a StrongHands table to try to get comfortable practicing on. (Hopefully I haven't left out any steps that are important.)

The six pictures in this message show what happened next. (Sorry that they are out of order a little.) I was using the torch on a coupon. I wasn't using any filler metal. I just wanted to get comfortable with holding the torch, watching the arc at the tungsten point, and running some beads without adding filler metal. The first bead I ran wasn't really heating the coupon well. I thought it was perhaps that I wasn't using the pedal correctly. On the second pass, when I got to the edge of the coupon, it got very hot and then the arc jumped from the coupon to the table top. As I let off the pedal something happened that I didn't expect.

Two of the pictures show the trail of steel that ran from cup edge to the lower part of the gas saver collet body. Two other pictures show the body after a majority of the track was removed from the body and outer-most screen. One picture shows the inside of the Pyrex cup after cleaning. And, the last shows the coupon with the blowout at the end.

I could use any advice you guys could offer. I am wounder if the main problem was that I wasn't getting sufficient ground between the table top and the coupon. If the coupon wasn't ground sufficiently and the puddle was still molten when I turned off the torch, would it track back to ground through the torch handle in that fashion?

A few specific questions:

1. Considering there is a small divot on the side of the gas lens collet body, is that piece trashed? (Will the few small droplets on the screen affect its use? (I know that I probably should have stuck with standard consumables until I got past this stage.)

2. Is the Pyrex cup safe to use, or should it be disposed of? (I'm not sure how they fail.)

3. I thought the Pyrex cup would be good for learning. Maybe that wasn't good thinking. Any thoughts?

Sorry for the long first post.

Jeff

[TraditionalToolworks]

Well... maybe 64 is a little too old to learn a new skill. lol

Seven years ago I purchased a new Miller Diversion 180 TIG welder.

Saturday I applied power to the machine.

I don't think your age has anything to do with it, but my suggestion is that if you really want to learn how to tig weld it would help to turn the machine on faster than 7 years.

I'm not sure why you're using a pyrex cup, you haven't even struck an arc or welded a bead with the machine, you're only making the entire process too complex, IMO.

I could use any advice you guys could offer.

Use a basic setup and stick with it until you get more familiar with the process.

1. Considering there is a small divot on the side of the gas lens collet body, is that piece trashed?

It would appear that way, but what matters is that it functions, allows gas to flow through the lens, holds the tungsten properly and allows a cup to attach to the threads. The cup should seal around the spacer or on the o-ring for a pyrex, I would ditch the pyrex until you learn more.

2. Is the Pyrex cup safe to use, or should it be disposed of? (I'm not sure how they fail.)

That one looks like toast. From the best I can tell you have ruined a designer class torch cup.

3. I thought the Pyrex cup would be good for learning.

No, they are fragile and expensive.

I'm not a professional, but I have almost as old as you and learning how to tig weld. I bought my first tig machine 2 years ago, but I turned it on within a day of receiving it. I recently bought another machine that will do AC (aluminum). I probably don't tig weld as much as I should, I also do some stick welding. Because of the time you have waited, it took you 7 years to learn that tig is a lot harder than you thought it would be.

You really need to start with basics, show your tungsten and how you sharpened it, explain your settings, material you're welding on, what filler you're using if any, etc...until you answer some of those questions it will be hard for anyone to help you.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Alan,

Fair enough...

I knew that TIG would be difficult. That's why I chose wait until I had enough time to take things step by step. I am self-employed and don't really have control over my schedule. Things for the next few months should be pretty manageable.

I'm starting out with 1/8" steel. Tungsten is 2% lanthenated (blue), sharpened on a Tech South Power Point at the default grind angle that was set on the new grinder. Running 120 amps. Tungsten stick-out is 1/2" for the #8 cup. No filler metal at the moment being used.

I'll take your advice and go back to the standard collet body and #7 cup that came on the Weldcraft torch. I am going use the replacement CK torch with the Miller foot pedal, though, so I am not trying to do too much with my right hand, and I can focus on position.

I am still trying to understand what would cause the puddle up inside the cup... grounding issues with the coupon or some other type of force pushing the puddle up into the cup.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff

[TraditionalToolworks]

I knew that TIG would be difficult.

It's not an intuitive process as it requires feeding filler with one hand, moving the torch with another hand, and operating the pedal with your foot. Takes most people some time to get used to.

That's why I chose wait until I had enough time to take things step by step.

You couldn't find time to sit down for an hour in 7 years?

The nice thing about tig is you can do it in your garage easily. Make sure you have a decent and clean place you can weld. It's good to get your mind off your busy schedule. Everyone needs some type of pastime from their work or all of us will go crazy. This has nothing to do with being self employed or working for someone else. We all need something as a break.

I'm starting out with 1/8" steel. Tungsten is 2% lanthenated (blue), sharpened on a Tech South Power Point at the default grind angle that was set on the new grinder. Running 120 amps. Tungsten stick-out is 1/2" for the #8 cup. No filler metal at the moment being used.

All of that sounds good, even that you have the sharpener as it will take one factor out of the equation. The one thing you didn't mention is the gas flow on your regulator. Make sure your tungsten is approx. 1/8" from the material and you're keeping the torch at about 15-20 degrees in the direction you're welding. And watch the puddle, nothing else, but the puddle and watch it wet up and then move it with the torch, the puddle will follow the heat.

I'll take your advice and go back to the standard collet body and #7 cup that came on the Weldcraft torch. I am going use the replacement CK torch with the Miller foot pedal, though, so I am not trying to do too much with my right hand, and I can focus on position.

I use a gas lens and don't see anything wrong with it if you have it, just that I don't think you needed to upgrade that stuff right away. I used my Chinese 26 torch that came with my machine for a couple months before buying a Chinese flex head for it ($10 upgrade). I did buy a stubby gas lens kit also at that time. You have a better machine that I started out on, Miller is the gold standard and many people have used the Diversion 180.

I am still trying to understand what would cause the puddle up inside the cup... grounding issues with the coupon or some other type of force pushing the puddle up into the cup.

One thing, make sure you clean your material really well. Tig likes clean surfaces. Also, make sure the tungsten you're using is not contaminated in any way, you should be able to look at the end and see that it's still cleanly sharpened.

With a #8 cup you probably want around 15-20 cfh, but no reason you can't go back down to a #5 cup and use about 10-12 cfh to save gas, especially if you use a gas lens.

Looking again, that gas lens is toast, toss it out and use a new one. Hopefully you have another gas lens. Use a standard pink alumina cup. No reason to get fancy. I use a 3rd hand to place the ground on the work, but also use a steel welding table. It's not an expensive one, but you need a way to conduct the ground to the work. If you can attach your ground to the table and have the work in contact with the table, that works well, but connecting your ground to the work itself is always safest and best.

You have an ideal machine to learn DC Tig on. Hopefully you have some wire brushes and/or an angle grinder with a wire wheel, to get your material cleaned. Also make sure to clean both your electrodes and filler when you start using it, with acetone or similar.

Lastly, please listen to some other people. I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, which can happen on the Internet. I am not a professional and I'm self taught. I refer to people here like Richard, cj, Josh, Spartan and even Oscar is helpful although he is not a professional either. There's plenty of XLNT people to get advice from here on WTAT.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Alan,

Thanks again.

I am sure I could have made the time in the 7 years. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to let too little time be an excuse to quit once I got started.

With the #8 cup I was running 20 cfh. (I also don't think I mentioned that the tungsten is 3/32".)

I will go back to the #7 alumina cup that came with the Miller torch. Right after I bought the machine I bought a kit with gas saver collet bodies and push-on alumina cups (and a couple Pyrex ones). Rather than rubber o-rings as a seal they use a metal ring. The interference fit between the cup and the collet body seems almost too tight. I like the screw-on alumina cup that came with the original torch better than the push-on.

10-4 on the clean workspace, parts and tungsten.

Thanks again for the advice.

Jeff

[BillE.Dee]

Hello Jeff and welcome. You will be able to get LOTS of information in here from a lot of great folks that are both professionals and hobbyists. You will have to sort thru some of the info and also combine some of the info from everyone and make the info work for YOU. Everyone drives a bit differently and so goes the tig welding, however, there is some things that are mandatory,,,kinda like seat belts.
I was looking over the pictures of the gas lens and will admit, I never had one do that, but have had the pyrex break,,,at my age, I can drop things ( I do have several years on you ) but enjoying the heck out of tig welding. I used to be nervous and jerky, no longer nervous.
You need to make sure the material you are going to weld is CLEAN, then clean it again. IF metal, make sure the millscale is off and down to bare metal. IF you are using 3/32 tungsten, you want to be about 1/8 to 3/32 over the work with the torch tilted just so you can see the tungsten and pushing the puddle. The amps will be about 1 amp per thousandth thickness of material to be welded. You will notice that by the time you get across to the end side of the material, the heat will be pretty high so begin to taper off close to the end of weld.
Have fun and don't hesitate to ask. We all like to have some fun too ... I'm still waiting for a pair of gloves and underwear from Josh...
gramps.

[Spartan]

That's strange, indeed! Never seen it before.

Arc welding creates magnetic currents in and around the work (often very noticeable when stick welding, but less noticeable in TIG unless the right circumstances are present). Perhaps you had some sort of one-in-a-million, freaky, super-strong magnetic current that formed right in that area and sucked all the molten weld metal up into the cup like that at just the right moment. Just guessing, but can't think of what else might have caused it.

Interested to hear if it happens again, or if anyone else has seen it. Either way, don't let it discourage you. Keep that arc lit!

[Oscar]

Yup it's trashed. Toss it, start over with a standard 7 or 8 alumina cup. Short stick out 1/8", short arc length 1/8", very little torch angle as was mentioned.

Don't practice on small coupons. They over heat fast and you dont learn proper heat control. If they are all small, let it cool until you can hold it in your hand and don't do back-to-back runs.. Don't go all the way to the edge, as you can see the heat has no where to go, so you don't actually learn anything aside from what you just learned that it will blow out the edge easily.

[VA-Sawyer]

Normally I agree with Oscar, but this time I will disagree a bit with him. The #8 cup is ok, but a smaller one will save some gas while learning. Where I disagree, is #7 or 8 cup with 1/8" of stickout. It is just too hard for a beginner to keep a short arc (very important), with such short stickout on that large of a cup. However, it is a good goal to work towards.
In my opinion, the short arc is critical, and keeping the arc aimed at the work is important. 1/8" of stickout on a cup that large, just doesn't allow enough room for a beginner to see what is going on with the puddle, and get the welding rod in there. I believe the rule of thumb is.... The stickout should not exceed the ID of the cup. A #8 cup is 8/16" ID, so 1/2" max stickout. I would suggest starting at 5/16 to 3/8" of stickout. Being that high above the work will let you see, while keeping a short arc. Your gas coverage won't be as effective as with shorter stickout, but at this point, you need a short arc more than shiny welds.
His advice about small coupons is right on the money. He does know his stuff for sure. Maybe he just doesn't remember how hard it was when he was new to it.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Perhaps you had some sort of one-in-a-million, freaky, super-strong magnetic current that formed right in that area and sucked all the molten weld metal up into the cup like that at just the right moment.

I don't buy into those conspiracy theories. He hasn't shown the tungsten, whether it's contaminated or not. Strange thing is if he's not even using filler how would the metal get sucked into the gas lens? Or did he smash the pyrex into the molten metal??? How did the pyrex get destroyed?

By the looks of his coupon the metal could have come from the end where he blew it apart. But thinking about this makes me wonder about the gas connections and/or if some type of venturi is being causes that is sucking that blown apart metal back into the lens? I would definitely go over all the gas connections on the hoses which are connected to the torch, making sure the gas lens is installed and seating properly, the collet and back cap, even on the machine where the gas hose connects to the dinse connector. If anything is sucking air it will likely prevent the gas from getting to the work.

Even stranger is how the side of the gas lens would get molten metal on it? If the cup was in place properly how would anything get on the side of the gas lens?

There's a lot of unknowns in this scenario, the plot thickens...

Agree with VA-Sawyer on that stickout, but without using filler should allow you to get your hood down in there to see exactly what is going on, remember he's not using filler yet. That makes it all the more odd how that molten metal splashed up on the gas lens.

[BillE.Dee]

just wondering ... If Jeff was carrying a lot of heat right to the end of the weld and then noticed the material was going away and he shut down so quickly that he either had the material jump, or got an air bubble in the material or he caught some of the table (or coating) that was probably much cooler than the weld material

Jeff, get yourself back to the alumina cups and bigger cleaned coupons and practice running beads.
The tig process does take time and lots of practice....have fun and take breaks .
gramps.

[Oscar]

True it's been 11 years since I for started to TIG.
But allow me to explain/elaborate.

The main reason I suggest a short stick-out is that eventually he will have to shorten it, because its not difficult to just set a long stick out; But a long stick out coupled with the fact that beginners tend to use a long arc length, then you have the cup orifice a good 3/4" to 1" away from the base metal with only 15 CFH or some non-sense like that (the stuff you don't know when starting out). And then the inevitable "any ideas?" Or "what am I doing wrong" are guaranteed to follow. Anybody who has been here long enough can attest to that. Of course they never mention "oh by the way I'm using very little inadequate gas flow for my 1/2" stick out and 3/8" arc length"! We spend our own time diagnosing what we think is a gas issue due to porosity/oxidation/orange dust of death, and then 8 times out of 10, they come back saying "I figured it out, my gas flow was too low and my stick out was long and I tightened up the arc length" I'm saving them hours/days/weeks/months of frustration from the learning curve, IMO. If its "too hard for a beginner" then tough tamales- they're not trying hard enough. If they "can't see", will they eventually have to? Yes they will.
Get into position. Scoot down/up/to the side/ whatever. Tilt your neck. Tighten up your core so you don't rest all your body weight on your poor forearms so you can have mobility/extension in your arms and hands. Its part of the game for TIG. Think of it like pro playing football or basketball; starting out you won't know the routes your quarterback wants you to take/know, or the plays down the basketball court your coach wants you to execute, but you do have to be in shape from the very get go. Pro sports don't take in people off the streets, LOL. TIG is the pro sport when it comes to welding, in terms of the learning curve. Anything to get ahead is worth a shot (except steroids, lol). So yea, my advice stems from what I would have liked to have been emphasized to me when I started, and I realize everyone has their own take on it.

Just my $0.02

[Jeff2016]

Hi Gramps,

just wondering ... If Jeff was carrying a lot of heat right to the end of the weld and then noticed the material was going away and he shut down so quickly that he either had the material jump, or got an air bubble in the material or he caught some of the table (or coating) that was probably much cooler than the weld material

Jeff, get yourself back to the alumina cups and bigger cleaned coupons and practice running beads.
The tig process does take time and lots of practice....have fun and take breaks .
gramps.

That explanation makes sense. I know there are a lot of things that I need practice with. I know the coupon was pretty hot as I got to the edge. I should have throttled down with the pedal sooner, and should have been watching for the edge so that I could stop the puddle before hand.

Whatever caused it, my goal is not to have it happen again... just not as confident as I'd like being that the cause is a little hard to figure out.

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate all of the advice.

Rather than reply everyone's messages individually, I'll try to keep everything together in this message.

First, about the tungsten, I will take a picture of it later today and post it.

Regarding all the advice, I think the main points are:

1. Use a standard alumina cup. (I bought a kit from Arc-Zone when I bought the welder. It has gas lens collet bodies. Anything wrong with using that setup to start? I only have the #7 alumina cup and standard collet body that came on the Weldcraft torch that was with the machine. The Arc-Zone cups are push-on and the original torch set-up was screw-on, so I can't use the alumina cups from Arc-Zone. I will buy a couple smaller alumina cups that will work with the standard collet body.)
2. Stay with a small cup with short stick-out. Is a stubby cup a good idea for learning? Both are in the Arc-Zone kit, so I have the option of stubby or standard as long as using a gas lens isn't making things overly complicated. It sounds like a #5 or #6 would be a good place to start.
3. I'll keep the stick-out long enough to see the puddle correctly.
4. I will work on larger scrap until I get better.
5. Stop the puddle before getting to the edge of the scrap metal.

Regarding the Pyrex cup, the deformities on the inside of the cup were were the molten metal trailed its way inside the lens to the collet body.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Jeff

[TraditionalToolworks]

Regarding the Pyrex cup, the deformities on the inside of the cup were were the molten metal trailed its way inside the lens to the collet body.

If that's the case the cup might be ok to use. As long as it's not broken it should be fine.

Check all your gas connections and fittings to be safe though, it was odd how the molten metal was sucked up to the side of the gas lens, it's possible the gas lens was not seated properly. Just make sure everything is seated and snugged properly, just finger tight things not gorilla tight. Standard slotted collets will twist and smash easily. DAMHIKT

[Thatkid2diesel]

Your never to old to learn a new skill. There was an 89 year old man that took the tig welding class at the local college. He ended up holding his own and had never tig welded before. Take as much info away from this forum as you can. A lot of knowledgeable guys on here that will help any way they can.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Everyone,

I never made it to the garage yesterday, so the picture of the tungsten is a day late.

It's included now. This is the condition it was in immediately following the splattering.

Thanks again for all the input.

That's a pretty cool story about the 89 year old at the local college. I admire him.

Take Care,

Jeff

[TraditionalToolworks]

This is the condition it was in immediately following the splattering.

You can't use that tungsten again until it is cleaned and sharpened. Do not even try.

I will suggest you check out gas connections and fittings again to figure out why the molten metal was being sucked into the side of the gas lens like it was.

[Spartan]

I'd just cut off that entire last inch or so that is contaminated. Also looks like there may be some serious erosion there, too. Hard to tell from the pic. You definitely had something freaky happen.

[Spartan]

Also, have you contacted Miller about this?? They may have some insight specific to that machine. Never hurts to ask. You're their customer, and that's their job.

[DougW]

That’s a dual voltage machine, just like my MiG welder. Voltage is auto sensing, I guess, but still requires either 110v adapter or the 50 amp 240v adapter. If it were mine I might be nosing around in that area....

[VA-Sawyer]

I wouldn't spend too much time trying to figure out what happened. My guess is you had a large puddle, dipped the electrode and it stuck, then you jerked as a reflex action. Some of the puddle was still molten and splashed up on the cup. It all happened so fast that you didn't think about it. I don't think there was any mysterious force sucking it up. Also it would take a lot of vacuuming force to lift molten metal into a cup.

As for the longer stickout for beginners..... experienced welders can tell what is going on in the puddle just by seeing the edge of it. Newbies don't have that skill, so they need to see more of the puddle to understand what is happening. That makes them want to lift the cup and/or tilt it more. That guarantees a long arc, unless they have enough stickout. The short arc is mandatory for good puddle control, minimum tilt is required for good penetration. The slightly higher cup to work distance, will reduce the gas coverage, but should still be enough for mild steel or aluminum practice.
The main point is this...... A short stickout, and newbie eyes, will result in a long arc. Give them the longer stickout in the beginning. It is less likely to cause the bad habit of long arcing. Reducing the stickout as they gain experience about the puddle, should come naturally as they try to improve bead appearance.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Everyone,

Just a bit of a follow-up to my first few posts. I got busy with work and with other life events so my TIG sessions pretty much stopped until last week.

Every few dozen beads things seem to come together. There's a ray of hope... for 30 seconds or so And then things get rocky for a few minutes.

My goal is to burn some metal every day for the next month.

If I had to rank the problems I have I guess they would be the following:

1. Keeping my torch hand relaxed. Early problem with that was losing the angle on the torch to the workpiece. Then when I pay more attention to it, I tense up and get a little jerky.

2. Focusing on the puddle goes from tough to not too bad. New 3.5 cheater helps as does better LED light in the garage. If I focus on the puddle exclusively, then my travel speed goes to heck. How hot is too hot, rather how wide a heat zone is too much?

3. I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the pedal. Not feeling so well though with the technique for feeding the filler wire. I'm sure there are a couple tips that will help with it.

4. I'm using 1/16" mild steel filler for 1/8" scrap plate or coupon plate.

5. Maintaining proper speed appears to be the right plan; but, it is hard to do.

6. I'm just not sure I have the correct snack info. (Well, crap... I'm not sure what I was trying to say here. It sure doesn't make sense now.)

Fading fast. I'll write more tomorrow.

Take Care,

Jeff

[Oscar]

Hi Everyone,

Just a bit of a follow-up to my first few posts. I got busy with work and with other life events so my TIG sessions pretty much stopped until last week.

Every few dozen beads things seem to come together. There's a ray of hope... for 30 seconds or so And then things get rocky for a few minutes.

My goal is to burn some metal every day for the next month.

If I had to rank the problems I have I guess they would be the following:

1. Keeping my torch hand relaxed. Early problem with that was losing the angle on the torch to the workpiece. Then when I pay more attention to it, I tense up and get a little jerky.

2. Focusing on the puddle goes from tough to not too bad. New 3.5 cheater helps as does better LED light in the garage. If I focus on the puddle exclusively, then my travel speed goes to heck. How hot is too hot, rather how wide a heat zone is too much?

3. I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the pedal. Not feeling so well though with the technique for feeding the filler wire. I'm sure there are a couple tips that will help with it.

4. I'm using 1/16" mild steel fillerfor 1/8" scrap plate of coupon plate.

5. Maintaining proper speed appears to be the right plan; but, it is hard to do.

6. I'm just not sure I have the correct snack info.

Fading fast. I'll write more tomorrow.

Take Care,

Jeff

Thanks for the follow-up. There is no secret that will allow you to magically skip years of much needed practice. *hint, hint*. Just keep practicing, and refer back often to Jody's TIG welding videos so you don't lose sight of what is important.

[Spartan]

Hi Everyone,

4. I'm using 1/16" mild steel filler for 1/8" scrap plate of coupon plate.

Something like that should not be on your list of problems. Easily fixed...you know how.