[noddybrian]

OK - I hope this does'nt sound weird or offend anyone - but I'd like an opinion from fellow welders before advising someone.

So a guy I know ( who seems to consider me a mate ! ( ? ) ) that has only ever mig welded badly with a nasty Clarke welder has determined that he " needs " a Tig welder ( but on a very low budget ) & keeps ringing me for advice - he's clearly been watching video's or lurking here - I tried to get him to have a go before buying one - but he seem set to buy a cheap Ebay machine in the 175 > 200amp AC / DC range - I don't know what he thinks he's going to do with it so it's hard to advise about some things - it will almost certainly come with a generic WP17 torch - now he's asked about the stubby lens kit - I tried finding them on " Shop River " but can't - they have regular & large gas lens & stubby standard collets - but I can't see stubby gas lens - my LWS is useless & does'nt even know what it means ! - I guess he could order a set from Jodie ( or sadly Wyatt ! ) but the cost with shipping is going to be very high - I explained it was not necessary for learning but he's obviously got it in his head you do having watched some video's.

This got me thinking - if you live some place they're easily available & can justify it then great go ahead - but if you have a generic 17 torch they are rated 150amps @ 30% duty - adding a stubby kit reduces this - some say by 1/4 some say 1/3rd - now they share the same handle / thread fitting as a WP9 which is rated 125amps @ 100% - I'm very tempted to tell the guy to order a " Shop River " WP9 head & handle & one of their kits of consumables including gas lens - it costs way less to do this & the worst he could do is " cook " the torch - the cost is low enough not to really worry - so why chase after this elusive stubby kit at all ? any thoughts on what to tell he guy ( yes join the forum & ask himself comes to mind ! )

[coldman]

If he wants an ac/dc machine this can only mean aluminium. Therefore, anyway you cut it, a 9 torch will fry in no time due to the amps. He has to go a 17 torch or better. Also its better he gets used to a bigger torch while learning, he might struggle the other way round.

[noddybrian]

Well I agree in principle on the AC - but it maybe small parts - I never had a 9 eries so I don't know what to expect - it just seemed that if they take 125amp @ 100% duty then they should stand a little more if used in short bursts - whereas if you downgrade 150amps @ 30% duty your not much different with a stubby kit on a 17 ? - I used a few machines over the years - never seem to do enough at a time to really get settled - but I just use what's on the machine & live with it - these days people watch a Jodie video & then wonder why their welds don't come out the same ! naturally they blame the torch & after all Jodie & Wyatt ( & I think Kevin ) rave about the stubby gas lens.

[coldman]

I use stubby lense in both my 17 and 26 torches. The 17 torch gets mighty hot in your gloved hand at 130 amps. I'm sure a 9 torch would not survive.
People complain about the bulk of the 26 torch - I learned on it and it does not bother me. If CK made a 26 flexlock torch I would dump my 17 flexlock in a minute.
I'm sure if I learned on a 9, I would curse the 17 and 26 as well.
Give me the 26 and give me the amps - man up time

[noddybrian]

OK - thanks for the advice- I've used & have 17 / 26's - never had a 9 - I think I'll tell him to try it with whatever is supplied & hold off on spending out till he knows if he gets along with Tig - my guess is he won't - then he'll blame the torch anyway ! - I do some quite thin stainless tube & the bulk of a 17 can be a nuisance on acute angle joints - I might order a cheap 9 Just to see if I can make a better job on them - it's mostly boat handrail & they always want it perfect & polished - even when it's going on a fishing boat & will never look good again once it's been out once !

[rake]

I have a 9,17 & 26 torches set up for my rig and switch up torches as required.

The 26 is a club but when you're running hot, you need it.

I also have a few extra heads in my tool box. Even a couple
straight "pencil" torches because, every so often, one
makes it easier to get into a certain space.

BTW Jody is getting a stubby lens kit in the Weldmonger's store.
A great idea if you ask me.

[CaveMechanic]

Hey guys, you keep talking about a couple of issues that are easily fixed with 1 set-up. A 26 is a club, a 9 way to light, I fixed both of these problems (shield gas coverage, and torch heating up at higher amps),simply built my favorite set-up, since your talking about replacing your torch anyway, Weldcraft sells both 1st is to buy a water cooled wp-18 torch, and 2nd a stubby gas lens. with this setup I can weld all day long, and never heat up the torch, as well as using less gas pressure due to the fact that the stubby gas lens gives better gas coverage and since the gas is cooled in the torch it gives better cone at lower cfh I can run 10 - 12 cfh that is about 4 to 6 cfh lower pressure and get better shielding, and better welds, hope this helps.

[noddybrian]

Thank you - I'm familiar with all the torch options - but the purpose of my question was on behalf of someone just learning & with a very limited budget - the stubby gas lens is almost unheard of here in the UK - our usual go-to supplier on Ebay does'nt appear to list them - LWS is useless - so it would need to be ordered from the states - this will end up 2 > 3 times the price you pay by the time all shipping & taxes are paid - that's an expensive option - water coolers are also scarce & very expensive here so unless you make your own it's not viable as a beginners tool - also the 18 is bigger than most will need as it's most likely they will be getting 200amps or less as a first machine - so a 20 series is quite adequate & uses easy to find small consumables - I agree though an 18 is still probably more user friendly than the 26.

[Oscar]

Well the you have no choice but to pony up the cash and just buy it. Complaining about availability won't get them to you any cheaper. If you need them you need them. BTW, you might want to check with Paul P @ HTP Weld. He can beat pretty much anybody's price on anything tig torch related as they move quite a bit of volume of product from CK Worldwide. paulp@htpweld.com is his email.

As far as the torch, CK makes a "trimline" 26 series air cooled torch that is almost as small as a 17 torch, but is of course still rated @ 200A, 100% duty cycle. Might want to look into it if you are not going the water-cooled route (which is worlds better with a 20 series).

Also, the 18 series is the same size as a 26 series. It is the "water cooled" version of the 26 torch and is normally rated at 350A @ 100% duty cycle.

[wheresmejumper]

Rapid Welding in the UK keep most CK parts in stock.they are not cheap, but cheaper than importing

[mcoe]

Her is your answer, I am still learning Tig and my machine came with a 26 series torch. Yes it is bulky but like someone mentioned earlier it is easier to start big then go small than to start small and go big. The learning curve is greater from small to big than big to small. Personal opinion but an answer to the original question.

[Superiorwelding]

OK - I hope this does'nt sound weird or offend anyone - but I'd like an opinion from fellow welders before advising someone.

So a guy I know ( who seems to consider me a mate ! ( ? ) ) that has only ever mig welded badly with a nasty Clarke welder has determined that he " needs " a Tig welder ( but on a very low budget ) & keeps ringing me for advice - he's clearly been watching video's or lurking here - I tried to get him to have a go before buying one - but he seem set to buy a cheap Ebay machine in the 175 > 200amp AC / DC range - I don't know what he thinks he's going to do with it so it's hard to advise about some things - it will almost certainly come with a generic WP17 torch - now he's asked about the stubby lens kit - I tried finding them on " Shop River " but can't - they have regular & large gas lens & stubby standard collets - but I can't see stubby gas lens - my LWS is useless & does'nt even know what it means ! - I guess he could order a set from Jodie ( or sadly Wyatt ! ) but the cost with shipping is going to be very high - I explained it was not necessary for learning but he's obviously got it in his head you do having watched some video's.

This got me thinking - if you live some place they're easily available & can justify it then great go ahead - but if you have a generic 17 torch they are rated 150amps @ 30% duty - adding a stubby kit reduces this - some say by 1/4 some say 1/3rd - now they share the same handle / thread fitting as a WP9 which is rated 125amps @ 100% - I'm very tempted to tell the guy to order a " Shop River " WP9 head & handle & one of their kits of consumables including gas lens - it costs way less to do this & the worst he could do is " cook " the torch - the cost is low enough not to really worry - so why chase after this elusive stubby kit at all ? any thoughts on what to tell he guy ( yes join the forum & ask himself comes to mind ! )

I see two main questions here. One on a machine and another on a torch/stubby gas lens.
For the machine this is a tough situation because I personally feel everyone and their brother wants to jump right into TIG and don't even have the fundamentals down pat yet. I would advise one of two things. First he go to school and learn to TIG weld there or dive off and purchase a welder and "try" to learn on his own. Now don't get me wrong, one can and does learn at home in their spare time, but it is better to have a teacher to physically show you what you are doing wrong. Videos and Forums only go so far.
Second on the torch/gas lens. Again everyone or most think they need a gas lens to make them a better welder. While I own many of them and use them, I learned on the traditional set up. To me it is like getting the cart before the horse. Learn with what you have and then progress to the stubby gas lens kit. For the price of admission I would advise your friend to first learn to TIG weld before he invests more money, same for a different torch.
This is my opinion.
-Jonathan

[mcoe]

Along with what Jonathan said I would advise he learn to weld preferably Tig but I learned how to oxy acetylene weld before I touched a Tig torch and I feel that was a big help. Plus he would have a torch set up to cut metal to weld later. Again just my opinion.

[noddybrian]

Thanks for the replies everyone - on the machine I'm confident he will buy the cheapest Ebay machine he finds the week he manages to hide his wages from his Mrs ! whatever advice he gets ! - I offered to let him use my Tig to try it out & give some basic tuition - but he did'nt want to know ( I think he's assuming he can just go for it after watching some video's ) - I'm self taught but have welded with oxy / acet since around 13 years old - he has no background other than a nasty Clarke mig on car body stuff so I think he'll struggle - on the torch I used whatever was screwed on the machine I was using - did'nt pay that much attention - I think he will blame his first attempts on the torch - this seems a very common problem - & both machine & torch choice are coming up as very common newbie questions on here - I never tried a small torch - but may get a cheap one - I got times it would be convenient - if I do I might try pushing it's limit on amps & report back on how it did - I did check on that link for a supplier of CK parts in the UK - but the prices are well outside the budget of my mate & most hobbyists - they have some interesting stuff -so thanks for the link & the replies - I have a feeling from some of the things he's said to me he lurks here - I'll try to get him to join - that way he can get good advice from a wide range of experienced members - not just me - one perspective is'nt necessarily right any / all the time !