[KVAS]

Hi guys!

I am young welder from Slovenia and I am new on your forum so I apologize if my post is set in incorrect theme.
I recently bought a CK24W tig torch and i have a big problem with gas coverage. No matter what gas flow I set on my meter I always get a sluggish puddle when welding aluminum or a black discoloration when welding stainless steel. I have seen guy on Youtube that welds perfect with the same kind of torch. I had the same problem before when I was welding with Fronius torch that uses really short cups. I would be grateful if you can help me.

Regards, Simon

[MinnesotaDave]

Need the particulars of your situation.
Thickness of aluminum
Type and size tungsten
Type and size cup
Amperage (actual welding amps, not "max but used the foot control")
Balance and Freq if they are adjustable
Type of shielding gas
Basically anything you did that affects the puddle needs to be listed.

My suspicion is you are welding slow and cold.

[KVAS]

My welding parameters are fine, because i try to weld the same thing with my 18 style torch and it went smooth. I use 2.4 mm tungsten which is two percent lanthanated. Thickness is about 3mm, amperage was definetly high enough. I use argon as a shielding gas, cup is #6 as i couldn't get larger one. My AC settings were:
AC freq: 200 Hz
AC balance: 30% cleaning efect (+ curent).

One more time: I just had problems with 24W torch.

Thanks for fast response!

Regards, Simon

[Braehill]

Simon,
I'm not sure if your using a gas lens or a standard collet body but I'm pretty sure that all CK24 torches use the old school split collets. Check to make sure your collet hasn't overheated and twisted, if it has it can go out against the inside of the torch and limit you gas flow. This is more likely in such a small torch with a rating of 180 amps, it puts a lot of heat back into the short components. Also check for leaks in your system, low pressure leaks will siphon atmosphere into your sheild gas. Also check that the o-ring on your back cap isn't split.

That's just a couple things off the top of my head.

Len

[dirtmidget33]

Well comparing 18 gas coverage to a 24 is kind hard depending on the cup your using on 18. They do make gas lens for 24 haven't seen them in person yet.
So my question for you is what size cup did you use on the 18 and was it a gas lens?

If you where using a say #7 cup with a lens on a ck18 you will not get same coverage with a #6 cup and standard collet body on the ck24.

[dirtmidget33]

There is a wedge collet available for the CK24s now
8CG116GS is the 1/16
8CG332GS is the 3/32

[TRACKRANGER]

Re: Gas Flow

I use one of these. Surprisingly, I get a slightly different reading than from the dial-gauge type regulator. I think I believe the ball type flow gauge better.

The most important thing is that this will tell you what you are really getting at the business end.

GasFlowMeter.png (429.03 KiB) Viewed 1481 times

[awill4wd]

Re: Gas Flow

I use one of these. Surprisingly, I get a slightly different reading than from the dial-gauge type regulator. I think I believe the ball type flow gauge better.

The most important thing is that this will tell you what you are really getting at the business end.

GasFlowMeter.png

I use exactly the same flow gauge and measure my gas at the torch as well. I usually check it every 2-3 days depending on how much welding I've been doing as the volume of gas at the torch goes up as bottle pressure decreases.
Looking at your pic of your flow meter we are both running similar volumes of gas around 7-8 litres/minute.
Regards Andrew from Oz.

[Otto Nobedder]

Simon,

Did you change out your bottle for a fresh one just before this problem?

I just dealt with a mislabeled bottle issue, in this topic:

http://forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com/v ... f=5&t=6100

Steve S

[KVAS]

Hi guys, thanks for all responses. I was pretty busy so i didn't manage to check the forum for a while. When i was welding with my Lorch 18 torch i used standart #7 cup. I set my gas flow to about 7 liters per minute, sometimes a bit more. I also tried welding with #6 and had no problems. I once again checked the CK24 torch and collets and i didn't find any problems. I did get some improvments when i stuffed some scotch bride into the standard cup to act as gas lens, but weld was still sluggish. I didnt order gas lens cup because i need the torch as small as possible. I hope I answered questions. Big thanks to all of you.

This is the guy i was talking about. I think he also uses #6 standard cup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGPgsXwgQkQ

Regards, Simon

[Oscar]

John Marcella is as good as they get when it comes to welding aluminum. He has perfected his technique over quite some time, likely > 15 years.

[zank]

I would check to make sure you are using the correct consumables. That torch takes the 2 series gas lens and cup, but you need the 8 series collet and insulator. If you are using the wrong collet or insulator, you could be blocking the gas inlet in the torch head

[KVAS]

Hi guys!

I manage to make some progress but not a whole much. I bought a gas lens for this torch and i had no problems with welding. But with standard cup i still can't get a decent looking weld. I only manage to weld a good aluminum weld with 1,6 mm electrode that had practically a very small stick out and it would be impossible to weld in tiny places as you are not able to see the electrode. My only problem with gas lens cup is that is too big because i have to do a inside weld in a tube that has a 40mm internal diameter. I hope you still have some ideas to help me. Is there anyone on this forum that is welding with the same style torch?

Regards, Simon

[Oscar]

Hi guys!

I manage to make some progress but not a whole much. I bought a gas lens for this torch and i had no problems with welding. But with standard cup i still can't get a decent looking weld. I only manage to weld a good aluminum weld with 1,6 mm electrode that had practically a very small stick out and it would be impossible to weld in tiny places as you are not able to see the electrode. My only problem with gas lens cup is that is too big because i have to do a inside weld in a tube that has a 40mm internal diameter. I hope you still have some ideas to help me. Is there anyone on this forum that is welding with the same style torch?

Regards, Simon

I use the same style torch, but I am not welding inside of 40mm diameter tubes. Perhaps you need a more specialized approach such as a micro-torch with an additional argon purge setup/trailing apparatus.

Also, no one here knows what "can't get a decent looking weld" means to YOU. Pictures speak a thousand words, or so I've heard. What do your welds look like, and exactly what do you want them to look like? It's time to stop messing around and come through clean and direct.

[KVAS]

No problem, i will do some welds with gas lens cup and with standard cup on Wednesday and you will see what I am talking about. I may be young and under experienced but i can weld pretty decent.

[KVAS]

Hi guys!

I have done some welding yesterday so you can get a picture of what I am talking about. Before i post any picture i want you to know that all of the welds were done at the same AC settings. AlMg5 material was used as filler material. Between the experiments i changed the gas flow and the electrode stick out and of course electrode diameter. Electrode was 2% lanthanated all the time.

First a weld that i think it is pretty good. It was made by 2.4mm electrode with #7 gas lens cup.


Then I kept everything the same except changed the gas lens cup to a #6 standard cup. You can see that the aluminum has a lot of impurities on the top...


Then i tried different electrode stick outs, different gas flows and I also tried with #5 standard cup but results weren't good at all.


Then i switched to a 1.6 mm electrode and I also tried a lot of different combinations but I only had success with gas flow set around 5L/min and very small stick out. Size of the cup was #5, I didn't had success with #6.


If anyone has an idea of what else I can try i would be very grateful. Here is the picture of the setup without the cup and the standard colet body.


Regards, Simon

[Oscar]

Nothing wrong with those weld beads, they look pretty good. No reason why you shouldn't have the same success with the #6 cup as you did with the #5 cup, unless you simply had too much argon flow that you dialed down with the #5 cup. The appropriate gas flow for a #7 cup won't be the same as the requirements of a #6 cup if you were already near the upper limit for acceptable argon flow for the #7 cup. If you kept everything the same, you shouldn't have. Gas flow should be tailored to the cup size if the joint configuration is the same.

[KVAS]

Nothing wrong with those weld beads, they look pretty good. No reason why you shouldn't have the same success with the #6 cup as you did with the #5 cup, unless you simply had too much argon flow that you dialed down with the #5 cup. The appropriate gas flow for a #7 cup won't be the same as the requirements of a #6 cup if you were already near the upper limit for acceptable argon flow for the #7 cup. If you kept everything the same, you shouldn't have. Gas flow should be tailored to the cup size if the joint configuration is the same.

I did try everything from very low argon flow to very high but still had success with only #5 cup. I had the same problems years ago, when i tried to weld with Fronious machine which torch uses really short cups. And even if I did manage to make a good weld I always had really small stick out. On the video about John Marcella you can see that he has a normal stick out on his torch.

[Oscar]

Nothing wrong with those weld beads, they look pretty good. No reason why you shouldn't have the same success with the #6 cup as you did with the #5 cup, unless you simply had too much argon flow that you dialed down with the #5 cup. The appropriate gas flow for a #7 cup won't be the same as the requirements of a #6 cup if you were already near the upper limit for acceptable argon flow for the #7 cup. If you kept everything the same, you shouldn't have. Gas flow should be tailored to the cup size if the joint configuration is the same.

I did try everything from very low argon flow to very high but still had success with only #5 cup. I had the same problems years ago, when i tried to weld with Fronious machine which torch uses really short cups. And even if I did manage to make a good weld I always had really small stick out. On the video about John Marcella you can see that he has a normal stick out on his torch.

that's weird. Well at least the beads with the #5 cup are very good from the looks of things.

[Otto Nobedder]

Two things that may be suspect with your standard collet-body setup. (And I'm speculating here.)

The gasket between the torch and the cup is one difference that "may" affect your results, as it was apparently changed when you transitioned from the gas-lens. Those shorty cups have a lot of turbulence at the gas ports in the collet body, and any leakage will suck air. One test for this may be to "paint" the seating surfaces of the gasket (both sides) with silicone spark-plug boot grease to see if you can improve the seal (the boot grease is good to 450* or so, and should not make problems of it's own before the gasket overheats).

The cups themselves may be contaminated (they do not appear "new") with a grease/oil or some other compound that is gassing off as soon as they see the heat from the arc. I've had this one happen to me, but it was only one cup, so was easy to diagnose, and my main suspect was WD-40 used too near my parts tray. In theory, though, this should cook off over time and the welds should improve.

I'd think the first problem I listed to be more likely, but both ideas are a bit of a reach...

Steve S

[Oscar]

Two things that may be suspect with your standard collet-body setup. (And I'm speculating here.)

The gasket between the torch and the cup is one difference that "may" affect your results, as it was apparently changed when you transitioned from the gas-lens. Those shorty cups have a lot of turbulence at the gas ports in the collet body, and any leakage will suck air. One test for this may be to "paint" the seating surfaces of the gasket (both sides) with silicone spark-plug boot grease to see if you can improve the seal (the boot grease is good to 450* or so, and should not make problems of it's own before the gasket overheats).

The cups themselves may be contaminated (they do not appear "new") with a grease/oil or some other compound that is gassing off as soon as they see the heat from the arc. I've had this one happen to me, but it was only one cup, so was easy to diagnose, and my main suspect was WD-40 used too near my parts tray. In theory, though, this should cook off over time and the welds should improve.

I'd think the first problem I listed to be more likely, but both ideas are a bit of a reach...

Steve S

very astute observations

[KVAS]

Two things that may be suspect with your standard collet-body setup. (And I'm speculating here.)

The gasket between the torch and the cup is one difference that "may" affect your results, as it was apparently changed when you transitioned from the gas-lens. Those shorty cups have a lot of turbulence at the gas ports in the collet body, and any leakage will suck air. One test for this may be to "paint" the seating surfaces of the gasket (both sides) with silicone spark-plug boot grease to see if you can improve the seal (the boot grease is good to 450* or so, and should not make problems of it's own before the gasket overheats).

The cups themselves may be contaminated (they do not appear "new") with a grease/oil or some other compound that is gassing off as soon as they see the heat from the arc. I've had this one happen to me, but it was only one cup, so was easy to diagnose, and my main suspect was WD-40 used too near my parts tray. In theory, though, this should cook off over time and the welds should improve.

I'd think the first problem I listed to be more likely, but both ideas are a bit of a reach...

Steve S

You definitely have a point... I tried three different gaskets and there was no difference in the welding, I also have 10 #5 cups and 10 #6 cups and they all welded the same. I will try to put some seal around the gasket and see if it makes any difference.

I have one concern that I didn't mention yet. The torch is from CK, but all the consumables are from European manufacturer Translas. Do you think that there could exist any difference between the CK and Translas consumables?

[Oscar]

I doubt it, but only you can tell us for sure.